Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another excuse?

[childeye]

To drive home the point, I am sure it is agreed that God is Holy and we are only Holy in relation to him. Therefore sin in this view is defined as a direction away from God or seperation from God. And this is evidenced to by the scriptures where, In Romans 1, God gave men over to the lusts of their flesh to the point that, not only did men become abominations and have vile affections; but also reprobate minds bent on doing what is inconvenient even to the approving of such behavior knowing God did not. Therefore if any man be seperated from God he has sin.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;588353]Paul is not talking about losing his salvation. Castaway here means disapproved, and Paul was referring to his ministry and how he needs to set a good example or people won't listen to what he teaches.

Sorry glorydaz, I don't agree, as if that's something new. You may be right about him not refering to losing his salvation, but he definately is talking about overcoming his flesh.

You started out good, and then you drifted. Believers are taught by God. They have not been "appointed" to salvation.

Acts 13:48
King James Version (KJV)


48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
John 6:45
King James Version (KJV)


45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Cornelius, like many men, had a conscience that caused him to know God and he followed it to the best of his ability.

I agree with this statement.

He had a choice to resist the preaching of the Gospel or be persuaded by it.

No one can choose to be persuaded since the word persuade realizes a preconceived tendency already in effect.

His heart attitude was proof of "good soil".

Well said, and not aggravating to me as if you had said he chose to have a good heart.

He didn't know Christ until the gospel was preached to him.

Can't say I know either way but what do you think of these words by Jesus; The sheep of God know their Master's voice and they will not follow another shepherd.

Abraham had the gospel preached to him by the great I AM which is Christ before he came as a man.

Agreed,Yeahhhhh!

Salvation is only available to those who repent and believe. Your prayers for someone do not result in their being forgiven or saved, but praying for them can contribute to their being open to the gospel message. We can even pray the Lord will bring them down to whatever low point He needs to in order to get their attention.

I won't agrue with that, even though I pray God grant them repentance.

This business of our suffering at the hands of those we pray for gives me pause. Perhaps you could explain that a little better. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.

I'm not sure I can explain it better. As an example, I cannot ask God to help the hungry when I have the means but have not helped. I can't ask God to look past the sins done by someone therefore if I have not been personally hurt by those sins myself. I don't expect you to understand that if you don't understand why people sin.

All sins were taken care of at the cross. The prison doors have been opened, and anyone who seeks will find his way out.

No argument here, but it does take some convincing for those who don't believe it or don't even understand it and are yet prisoners of their own blindness such as the Pharisees.

There you go...off in lala land again. You can explain if you'd like, but please keep it to the point and with scripture would be nice. Oops, never mind...I see you're trying to explain below and you're making absolutely no sense at all.

Here is the point. There is a God, Genesis 1:1. That is what an absolute is, as in an absolute Truth. So it is, that the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth testifies to God both the Father and the son, John 15:26. God is the epitome of good and comprehended as Light by which we see. You know, LIGHT, 1 John 1:5. He is the Eternal Spirit of Love. You know, LOVE 1John 4:16. If you can comprehend that, then tap your foot on the ground three times and we can move on. La,lala,lala. skippity skippity skip skip.

Now, moving on there is an enemy to God, Matthew 13:25. This enemy secretly resents that he is to be subserviant to that Light that is the absolute Isaiah 14:14. And because he has no regard for the Light and is proud, he counts it his slavery rather than his freedom to be in the Light and longs to be his own ruler in the darkness through deception John 8:44, Job 41:33-34. Now this enemy is high up in the chain of command Ezekial 28:14. And taking for granted the priviledge of his position he instead uses it to usurp the authority given him by conspiring to cause those under him to question the Holiness and purity of the Light and to rule over them as their God through subverting the Light, Ezekial 28:18, Revelation 12:4, 2 Corinthians 11:14, Matthew 12:26, 2 Corinthians 4:4, 2 Peter 2:19. In this way he hopes to create his own absolute making all under him after his image and not God's, 1 John 3:8, John 12:31, Ephesians 2:2. La,lala,lala, skippity skip,skip,skip.

So this enemy designs a clever lie that mimicks the Truth and presents this false truth to the unsuspecting . That false truth being that a man can disobey God and live despite what God says and he says this with his own conviction as one high in the chain of command. For God was simply keeping man down so God can be God. And he showed them the way to become like God which God was preventing them from knowing, Genesis 3:1-5. And so to the gullible, who had no knowledge of guile, the enemy presented them with a marvelous vision of freedom that appealed to vanity. For it made men imagine they could better there station under God when in fact they were perfect where they were at. And so being tempted by such vain imaginations, they partook of the knowledge that allows a man to know good and evil. Thinking now they were wise, they had became fools, for goodness is not attained through such knowledge but by staying close to the Light of God's presence. So it is in this world that men believe they choose to do good and evil according to the reasoning in their minds rather than the Love in their hearts,1 Corinthians 1:19, 1 Corinthians 1:27-30, 1 John 3:6,1 John 4:7-8, 1John 2:27 2 Peter 2:19, Romans 10:3, Romans 1:21.

Sorry there are just too many scriptures to list them all. La la la.

If you're speaking of vain imaginings then I guess you must know what you're talking about. You've learned it from somewhere. Come back to planet earth, Childeye, and maybe we can actually reason together. ;)

I can't come back to the world, I've seen the True Light. His Name is Jesus and he died for my sin so that I might live again unto God. La,lala,lala,skippity skippity skip.

 

[Chan]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Not humanity's state of sin resulting from Adam's sin, if I understand what you're saying there, but our basic nature being the same as His was...both before and after we sin. After sinning, we feel guilt, just as he did. We don't carry his sin, but we do quickly follow suit.

The guilt of Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden is imputed (charged to) the whole of humanity (see Romans 5:12-21). It is on that basis that the scriptures rightly say that "all have sinned" (otherwise, the scriptures are wrong because babies in the womb have not, themselves, sinned).

In the same way that Adam's sin is imputed to the whole of humanity, so also is Christ's righteousness imputed to each individual Christian.

Worth reading: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...ical-evidence-for-the-imputation-of-adams-sin

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: Word games -

He DID NOT have His own lust.

Lusting is a sin...it doesn't have to be acted on to be sin.

So then Jesus WAS NOT "Tempted in all respects" are we are, and the bible is incorrect in saying that HE was, I assume.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Word games -

i

So then Jesus WAS NOT "Tempted in all respects" are we are, and the bible is incorrect in saying that HE was, I assume.

He was tempted in all respects, but that does not mean He had any lusts.

Lusting is the same as coveting...sure sounds like sin to me.

 

[Pard]

Re: Word games -

So then Jesus WAS NOT "Tempted in all respects" are we are, and the bible is incorrect in saying that HE was, I assume.

One can be tempted without having to experience lust.

If a very pretty woman walks by you are tempted but it doesn't mean you will lust it was simply a temptation.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Word games -

One can be tempted without having to experience lust.

If a very pretty woman walks by you are tempted but it doesn't mean you will lust it was simply a temptation.

I agree. Lust would be to long for or set the heart upon.

I like the way Job puts it...

I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

 

[Pard]

Re: Word games -

I didn't use scripture before so let me use it now before it comes to bite me in the behind!

Every man has desires (James 1:14). This is just a simple fact. Almost ever worldly religion of man admits to this and there are entire political philosophies tied to the simple fact that man knows greed and lets it control him.

To posses these desires isn't a sin. "Afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin" (James 1:15). By giving into the temptation and the desire is sin created not by possession of these attributes but by giving into them and by association Satan (for Satan tempts and God tests).

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Word games -

I didn't use scripture before so let me use it now before it comes to bite me in the behind!

Every man has desires (James 1:14). This is just a simple fact. Almost ever worldly religion of man admits to this and there are entire political philosophies tied to the simple fact that man knows greed and lets it control him.

To posses these desires isn't a sin. "Afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin" (James 1:15). By giving into the temptation and the desire is sin created not by possession of these attributes but by giving into them and by association Satan (for Satan tempts and God tests).

James doesn't say having the desire is not sin...he just shows the progression of sin from conception (lust), in the same way an embryo is a person. Jesus was in the world with all it's temptations but never sinned. Desire is the same as covet in the OT.

We see here what Jesus thinks of lust.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Was there even an occasion of stumbling in Jesus? Do you believe if He saw a half-naked damsel He would have longed for her or seen her as a child of God in need of salvation?

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Don't forget, Jesus said, the Father "dwelleth in me".

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

He was taught by God from His youth.

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Pard]

Re: Word games -

James doesn't say having the desire is not sin...he just shows the progression of sin from conception (lust)

14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Couldn't disagree more. It clearly says that sin is born from desire... That is all I said before. If you give into desire it will become sin. Which is the point I was trying to make because Bob said that even desire is a sin...

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Word games -

Couldn't disagree more. It clearly says that sin is born from desire... That is all I said before. If you give into desire it will become sin. Which is the point I was trying to make because Bob said that even desire is a sin...

To covet - desire or fix the mind on.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Jesus perfectly obeyed the law. By the law, we're told not to covet (lust).

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Did Jesus ever lust, or did he love His neighbour as Himself?

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Pard]

I've got a problem... I agree with you and myself. This would lead me to conclude that we are perhaps on the same page and just in different paragraphs. I'm thinking my own personal definition of "desire" is different than the one you use. Give me one moment please...

...Yup apparently it means something else to the rest of the world. Cure you New England!

 

[glorydaz]

I've got a problem... I agree with you and myself. This would lead me to conclude that we are perhaps on the same page and just in different paragraphs. I'm thinking my own personal definition of "desire" is different than the one you use. Give me one moment please...

...Yup apparently it means something else to the rest of the world. Cure you New England!

Ah, a Connecticut yankee eh?

 

[childeye]

This was written by Justin Martyr: second apology of Justin for the Christians addressed to the Roman senate, chapter five:

But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not act as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this too I will solve. God, when He made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law- for these things also He evidently made for man-committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to them selves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions;and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to God Himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of those offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

Some here would say Justin Martyr gives the devil too much power. But as Jesus said, the Truth will set you free.
​

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Excuse me???

"Bob said that even desire is a sin...

NO!! - I didn't!!!!

Another did.

What I said was - According to the BIBLE: Jesus was TEMPTED IN ALL RESPECTS AS WE ARE (but without sin).

And according to the BIBLE: being "Drawn away of our OWN LUST(desire)" is how "temptation" works, Jesus HAD TO KNOW the nature of OUR temptation/desire - which could ONLY come from having a "Human nature". Otherwise ALL of Jesus' "temptations" were nothing but meaningless "Window dressing".

Obviously the "Desire" is NOT "sin" - until the DESIRE "conceives", and becomes an ACTION.

 

[glorydaz]

This was written by Justin Martyr: second apology of Justin for the Christians addressed to the Roman senate, chapter five:

But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not act as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this too I will solve. God, when He made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law- for these things also He evidently made for man-committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to them selves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions;and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to God Himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of those offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

Some here would say Justin Martyr gives the devil too much power. But as Jesus said, the Truth will set you free.
​

Oh my gosh, you're posting him again.

You're just proving that those who give satan too much credit continue to speak forth error after error.

The sons of god were the descendants of Seth. The daughters of men were the descendants of Esau.

Angels cannot mate with human beings.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;589692]Oh my gosh, you're posting him again.

You're just proving that those who give satan too much credit continue to speak forth error after error.

The sons of god were the descendants of Seth. The daughters of men were the descendants of Esau.

Angels cannot mate with human beings.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Excuse me???

"Bob said that even desire is a sin...

NO!! - I didn't!!!!

Another did.

What I said was - According to the BIBLE: Jesus was TEMPTED IN ALL RESPECTS AS WE ARE (but without sin).

And according to the BIBLE: being "Drawn away of our OWN LUST(desire)" is how "temptation" works, Jesus HAD TO KNOW the nature of OUR temptation/desire - which could ONLY come from having a "Human nature". Otherwise ALL of Jesus' "temptations" were nothing but meaningless "Window dressing".

Obviously the "Desire" is NOT "sin" - until the DESIRE "conceives", and becomes an ACTION.

Desire is LUST...desire is COVET. Jesus had no lust.

To lust is to covet (desire).
It's stated in the 10 commandments. (Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife...or his goods...)

Jesus, Himself, said, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

I guess I'll believe Jesus and the 10 commandments rather than some man's understanding of James.

 

[glorydaz]

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The baby shouldn't be bathing in that stinky bathwater.

 

[childeye]

Re: Excuse me???

"Bob said that even desire is a sin...

NO!! - I didn't!!!!

Another did.

What I said was - According to the BIBLE: Jesus was TEMPTED IN ALL RESPECTS AS WE ARE (but without sin).

And according to the BIBLE: being "Drawn away of our OWN LUST(desire)" is how "temptation" works, Jesus HAD TO KNOW the nature of OUR temptation/desire - which could ONLY come from having a "Human nature". Otherwise ALL of Jesus' "temptations" were nothing but meaningless "Window dressing".

Obviously the "Desire" is NOT "sin" - until the DESIRE "conceives", and becomes an ACTION.

All temptaion arises from believing a lie. Armed with the Truth no temptation is plausible. The only place where it could be said that Jesus was actually moved to turn away from God's will was in the Garden of Gethsemene.