Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another excuse?

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

You got to get it straight man...To much "abstract" thinking is not a good for you...OK??

Exactly. The first thing that needs to go is this idea that man has a false image of God.
God is "clearly" seen by us in our conscience....therefore man is without excuse.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Exactly. The first thing that needs to go is this idea that man has a false image of God.
God is "clearly" seen by us in our conscience....therefore man is without excuse.

Then you'd better tell Jesus who said this:
John 5:37

King James Version (KJV)


37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 17:25

King James Version (KJV)


25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;587991]Cornelius didn't have a false image of God, and yet he was unsaved.

I never said he had a false image of God. Nor do I know he was unsaved. As I said Abraham saw the Word and believed. Most likely Cornelius did too.

Peter came to preach the Gospel that the way to salvation was by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes belief in the True Image of God that submits to a cross and says "forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

Jesus was not saying people have a false image of God, that's for sure.

In a manner of speaking in fact he was:
2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)


4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Hebrews 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)



14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

He was not giving man an excuse for sin, He was praying for His enemies as He taught.

Yes he was praying for his enemies and he said why, "for they know not what they do". He was excusing their blindness not saying it was okay to crucify people.

He was voicing what He was doing...not just for those around Him but for all of us. All our sins were laid on Him that day.

Then believe him and quite blaming people for their sin.

He was speaking of His work on the cross...the forgiveness of sins.

Yeah, by reason that they don't know what they're doing.

He was making it clear He was fulfilling prophecy and was the Messiah.

It was clear before he ever died on the cross.

We saw the unrepentant sinner and the repentant sinner on either side, with Christ as the mediator between God and man, and the repentant thief was told he would be with Him in paradise.

One thief says to get us off the cross signifying he is only thinking about saving his flesh. Then there is the thief who "rebukes" the other saying this man has done nothing and he is here and we are here because of our sins. This is signifying a sinner who wishes to pay for his own sins. I don't think you understand the implications.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Then you'd better tell Jesus who said this:
John 5:37

King James Version (KJV)


37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 17:25

King James Version (KJV)


25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Oh, by this you're saying our knowledge of God must be as perfect as the Son's who is God Himself?

Interesting concept.

Since I don't aspire to quite those heights, I'll give you some verses that pertain to man and not God.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We see God all around us, and as we spend time in the Word of God, we learn of Him. This is why I always encourage you to spend time reading the Word and less time explaining what you think it means. I don't say this to upset you. I see you have a great desire, but it can only be filled by reading and meditating on the Word of God.

It begins with "hearing" the Gospel message.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.

As we grow mature in the Lord, we move from the "milk" of the Word to the "strong meat" of the Word.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;588012]Oh, by this you're saying our knowledge of God must be as perfect as the Son's who is God Himself?

You are paraphrasing and twisting Christ's words. I'm saying some men do not know God as in The Love that is God in man.

Interesting concept.

Quite simple actually God is the eternal Spirit of Love.

Since I don't aspire to quite those heights, I'll give you some verses that pertain to man and not God.

Both verses I gave you pertained to man generalized as the world.

We see God all around us, and as we spend time in the Word of God, we learn of Him. This is why I always encourage you to spend time reading the Word

If you mean the bible, I've read the bible most all of my life. It is the first book I've ever owned.

and less time explaining what you think it means. I don't say this to upset you.

I'm not upset glorydaz. I do my part to expose lies and I do not put my candle under a basket. For this I expect persecution.

I see you have a great desire, but it can only be filled by reading and meditating on the Word of God.

My desire is to do God's work in the vineyard.

It begins with "hearing" the Gospel message.

That it does.

As we grow mature in the Lord, we move from the "milk" of the Word to the "strong meat" of the Word.

Yes I know. Good scripture that you posted. I already know that men sharpen their senses by excercising them. In fact it is clear to me that as we are conformed to the True Image of God, the old false image in which Satan holds us in bondage becomes foreign and obviously flawed.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I never said he had a false image of God. Nor do I know he was unsaved. As I said Abraham saw the Word and believed. Most likely Cornelius did too.

You CAN know....you can read the whole thing right there in Acts 10, where Cornelius is introduced, through Acts 11 where Peter recounts how he preached the gospel to him and explained the way of salvation.

And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; [color=red']Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.[/color]

I showed you Cornelius's condition before salvation, and you discount it because you don't know that he was unsaved. Before, you said those who aren't saved have a false image of God. Which is it? Then you brought up Abraham, who, indeed, did have the gospel preached to him. I'm glad you knew that.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Yes he was praying for his enemies and he said why, "for they know not what they do". He was excusing their blindness not saying it was okay to crucify people. Then believe him and quite blaming people for their sin. Yeah, by reason that they don't know what they're doing. It was clear before he ever died on the cross.

He wasn't "exusing" anything. He was forgiving his enemies as we're to do, whether they deserve it or not. He wouldn't go to His death holding unforgiveness in His heart...that would have been sin, and He had no sin in Him.

We forgive our enemies so our own conscience will be right with God. Do you think when you forgive someone their sins are forgiven by God? Christ's work on the cross took care of sin...not his request on the cross that the Father forgive them. He was verbalizing His WORK on the cross...forgiving SIN not excusing sin.

You seem to think that all men have an excuse not to believe in God, and God says they have none.

"Quit blaming people for their sin?" If people aren't to blame for sin, then God had no reason for the cross. Why did Adam and Eve have to leave the garden...you say they weren't to blame? Why did God destroy all those people in the flood if they were merely blind fools? Why will there be gnashing of teeth after the Judgment?

One thief says to get us off the cross signifying he is only thinking about saving his flesh. Then there is the thief who "rebukes" the other saying this man has done nothing and he is here and we are here because of our sins. This is signifying a sinner who wishes to pay for his own sins. I don't think you understand the implications.

Don't I? The thief that "repented," as I mentioned before, only knew he deserved to die. The thief did not presume to think that his own death would make him right with God. That's why he expressed his belief in Jesus...he had faith.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Word games -

Well, you believe man has a sin nature, and I believe man has a human nature.

WE BOTH believe man has a "human nature", of course - and I believe that our HUMAN nature is at enmity with God as the Bible says it is. MINE certainly is. Simple as that.

"Let me ask you this. Jesus was fully God and fully man...yet without sin.
What happened to His sin nature?"

Jesus was TEMPTED in every way as WE are - but didn't enter into SIN. And Since a man is TEMPTED when he's drawn away of his OWN LUST, and "Enticed" - then in order for Jesus to be TEMPTED, obviously He had to have "His own lust". But obviously never let it "Conceive" and become SIN. SO it appears that Jesus had the "Normal package" in terms of His "Human Nature", but controlled it/denied it in a way that NONE OF US ever will.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

You are paraphrasing and twisting Christ's words. I'm saying some men do not know God as in The Love that is God in man.

Quite simple actually God is the eternal Spirit of Love.

Don't tell me I'm twisting Christ's words. That's bearing false witness.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Word games -

Jesus was TEMPTED in every way as WE are - but didn't enter into SIN. And Since a man is TEMPTED when he's drawn away of his OWN LUST, and "Enticed" - then in order for Jesus to be TEMPTED, obviously He had to have "His own lust". But obviously never let it "Conceive" and become SIN. SO it appears that Jesus had the "Normal package" in terms of His "Human Nature", but controlled it/denied it in a way that NONE OF US ever will.

He DID NOT have His own lust.

Lusting is a sin...it doesn't have to be acted on to be sin.

Man does not have a sin nature. It's not supported in the Word. Man becomes a sinner when he sins.
Sin is not something that is passed down from person to person.

 

[glorydaz]

Where did this idea for a sin nature come from?

I submit it comes from misinterpreting certain texts from the Word. We certainly don't see it when we look at the people who lived during the OT times, where it should stand out most glaringly.

Both Cain and Abel brought offerings to God. Their desire was to please God.

Cain was discouraged and his countenance was fallen when God did not respect his offering. God is explaining that if he did well, he would be accepted...if he did not well, sin was at the door. No indication of a sin nature there.

But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Then you'd better tell Jesus who said this:
John 5:37

King James Version (KJV)


37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 17:25

King James Version (KJV)


25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Whats your point??

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

=glorydaz;588030]You CAN know....you can read the whole thing right there in Acts 10, where Cornelius is introduced, through Acts 11 where Peter recounts how he preached the gospel to him and explained the way of salvation.

I've read it many times. But I still don't know how Cornelius perservered in the faith although I would trust he did. I don't judge who's going to heaven and who's going to hell glorydaz, who's saved and who's unsaved. We've talked about this before. Even Paul said he could be cast away if he did not put aside his flesh.

I showed you Cornelius's condition before salvation, and you discount it because you don't know that he was unsaved. Before, you said those who aren't saved have a false image of God. Which is it? Then you brought up Abraham, who, indeed, did have the gospel preached to him. I'm glad you knew that.

Your use of Cornelius was to show men can do good although they hadn't heard the Gospel, right? Well I never claimed men could do no good without being saved. When you speak of saved you speak of believing in the Christ. However I am saying a believer in Christ has the same Word of God in them that Christ is, that is how they come to believe. So as they are all taught by God that come to Christ, these are in affect already chosen and appointed to salvation. Cornelius is a good example of that. So I would not say he was unsaved for he knew Christ before he heard of Christ. That is why Abraham saw Christ before Christ ever was because the Word which Christ is was in Abraham. God's word was in Adam but Adam had not enough confidence in himself. Jesus is the affirmation to trust in the Word of God in us so as not to be bullied by the devil.

He wasn't "exusing" anything. He was forgiving his enemies as we're to do, whether they deserve it or not. He wouldn't go to His death holding unforgiveness in His heart...that would have been sin, and He had no sin in Him. We forgive our enemies so our own conscience will be right with God.

One of the smartest things I've seen you write.

Do you think when you forgive someone their sins are forgiven by God?

This is a good question. As I can't speak for God, I will say I believe forgiveness is available since I intercede on their behalf, but it is clear to me that the false image of god must be addressed so that the True Image can live in the man. Therefore I believe God is able to change a man by revealing Himself. And through our suffering at the hands of those we pray for gives us clout with God to hear our intercession.

Christ's work on the cross took care of sin...not his request on the cross that the Father forgive them. He was verbalizing His WORK on the cross...forgiving SIN not excusing sin.

Well then we agree, for I said forgiving the blindness not saying it was okay to crucify the innocent.

You seem to think that all men have an excuse not to believe in God, and God says they have none.

Well there you're wrong. I believe all men must have an absolute so there is no excuse, but having the correct absolute is necessary. I hope that clears that up.

"Quit blaming people for their sin?" If people aren't to blame for sin, then God had no reason for the cross.

I think you are misunderstanding what I say. The people commit the sin because of vanity. They trust in their false absolutes and therefore have sin (seperation from God) because they reason upon a false absolute. It can surely be said that man has no excuse for making up their own Truth purely in the sense that we know what is goodness, but men don't see that they have not acknowledged the Godhead by claiming it as their own initiative and therefore their prerogative.

Why did Adam and Eve have to leave the garden...

Because they had to learn the hard way. God did Man a great favor by not allowing men to eat of the tree of life in their condition of vanity.

you say they weren't to blame?

They are to blame for being gullible.

Why did God destroy all those people in the flood if they were merely blind fools?

This is the single most perfect type of what the wrath of God is like against the ungodly. A wrath he Himself repented of. A great topic for a thread. I could go on in much detail according to my own speculation. Suffice it for now to conclude that God hated the suffering sin was causing and onlt Noah and his family escaped. Not a good indication of freewill.

Why will there be gnashing of teeth after the Judgment?

Because people thought they were righteous and found out they were not.

Don't I? The thief that "repented," as I mentioned before, only knew he deserved to die. The thief did not presume to think that his own death would make him right with God. That's why he expressed his belief in Jesus...he had faith.

The thief who had faith accepted his cross even as Jesus did. He was right with God therefore. It cannot be called justice however if a thief is crucified for stealing. But the fact that the man accepted his lot indicates his faith was greater than justice.

 

[Gazelle]

I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 55:1

Yes, we are sinful because we are of Adam.

Romans 5:12 (KJV)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is the T in tulip btw Total depravity. ;)

If we do not have sin from Adam, then we would also not have death.

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Whats your point??

My point is that Jesus mititgates the blame and Satan blames with enthusiasm.

 

[glorydaz]

Now this is a surprise.....hmmm.

I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 55:1

Yes, we are sinful because we are of Adam.

The mother was a sinner...not the baby.
The fathers sins are not passed down to the children...have you read Ez. 18?

Jesus had a human nature...where was his sin?

Romans 5:12 (KJV)

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin and death entered the WORLD....they didn't enter man. We see it's physical death that affects all men...even those who have not sinned (babies and children). "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression."

This is the T in tulip btw Total depravity. ;)

If we do not have sin from Adam, then we would also not have death.

This is exactly why I put this thread up. We have death because we are in a corrupt world. God even cursed the ground. Nothing is ever mentioned about a sin nature in man. Men now die because they lost access to the tree of life. Sin is not passed down through our genes.

I'm curious, Gazelle. Have you read any of the arguments in this thread, and have you ever considered the doctrine of total depravity is flawed and proven false by the whole of the Word?

 

[childeye]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Don't tell me I'm twisting Christ's words. That's bearing false witness.

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 17:25


25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Oh,
by this you're saying our knowledge of God must be as perfect as the Son's who is God Himself?

Okay. I apologize. I'll just say you didn't get the point of what I was getting at with Jesus' words.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

I've read it many times. But I still don't know how Cornelius perservered in the faith although I would trust he did. I don't judge who's going to heaven and who's going to hell glorydaz, who's saved and who's unsaved. We've talked about this before. Even Paul said he could be cast away if he did not put aside his flesh.

Paul is not talking about losing his salvation. Castaway here means disapproved, and Paul was referring to his ministry and how he needs to set a good example or people won't listen to what he teaches.

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Your use of Cornelius was to show men can do good although they hadn't heard the Gospel, right? Well I never claimed men could do no good without being saved. When you speak of saved you speak of believing in the Christ. However I am saying a believer in Christ has the same Word of God in them that Christ is, that is how they come to believe. So as they are all taught by God that come to Christ, these are in affect already chosen and appointed to salvation. Cornelius is a good example of that. So I would not say he was unsaved for he knew Christ before he heard of Christ. That is why Abraham saw Christ before Christ ever was because the Word which Christ is was in Abraham. God's word was in Adam but Adam had not enough confidence in himself. Jesus is the affirmation to trust in the Word of God in us so as not to be bullied by the devil.

You started out good, and then you drifted. Believers are taught by God. They have not been "appointed" to salvation. Cornelius, like many men, had a conscience that caused him to know God and he followed it to the best of his ability. He had a choice to resist the preaching of the Gospel or be persuaded by it. We don't know, from the Word, what he did, but it's pretty safe to assume he did end up being saved. His heart attitude was proof of "good soil". He didn't know Christ until the gospel was preached to him. Abraham had the gospel preached to him by the great I AM which is Christ before he came as a man.

This is a good question. As I can't speak for God, I will say I believe forgiveness is available since I intercede on their behalf, but it is clear to me that the false image of god must be addressed so that the True Image can live in the man. Therefore I believe God is able to change a man by revealing Himself. And through our suffering at the hands of those we pray for gives us clout with God to hear our intercession.

Salvation is only available to those who repent and believe. Your prayers for someone do not result in their being forgiven or saved, but praying for them can contribute to their being open to the gospel message. We can even pray the Lord will bring them down to whatever low point He needs to in order to get their attention.

This business of our suffering at the hands of those we pray for gives me pause. Perhaps you could explain that a little better. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.

Well then we agree, for I said forgiving the blindness not saying it was okay to crucify the innocent.

All sins were taken care of at the cross. The prison doors have been opened, and anyone who seeks will find his way out.

Well there you're wrong. I believe all men must have an absolute so there is no excuse, but having the correct absolute is necessary. I hope that clears that up.

There you go...off in lala land again. You can explain if you'd like, but please keep it to the point and with scripture would be nice. Oops, never mind...I see you're trying to explain below and you're making absolutely no sense at all.

I think you are misunderstanding what I say. The people commit the sin because of vanity. They trust in their false absolutes and therefore have sin (seperation from God) because they reason upon a false absolute. It can surely be said that man has no excuse for making up their own Truth purely in the sense that we know what is goodness, but men don't see that they have not acknowledged the Godhead by claiming it as their own initiative and therefore their prerogative.

Because they had to learn the hard way. God did Man a great favor by not allowing men to eat of the tree of life in their condition of vanity.

They are to blame for being gullible. This is the single most perfect type of what the wrath of God is like against the ungodly. A wrath he Himself repented of. A great topic for a thread. I could go on in much detail according to my own speculation. Suffice it for now to conclude that God hated the suffering sin was causing and onlt Noah and his family escaped. Not a good indication of freewill.
Because people thought they were righteous and found out they were not.

If you're speaking of vain imaginings then I guess you must know what you're talking about. You've learned it from somewhere. Come back to planet earth, Childeye, and maybe we can actually reason together. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Does man really have a sin nature or is that just another exuse?

Okay. I apologize. I'll just say you didn't get the point of what I was getting at with Jesus' words.

Thanks, I guess I didn't.

 

[Pard]

Anything can be used as an excuse...

That being said let's see... Adam and Eve brought sin into the world by disobeying their own command. True human nature is sinless as that is how God created us but humans invited sin into their lives and it has since tainted our nature and distorted God's original human "blueprint".

It's only an excuse if you say "Well I have a sinful nature so I might as well just keep on sinning!"

 

[glorydaz]

Anything can be used as an excuse...

That being said let's see... Adam and Eve brought sin into the world by disobeying their own command. True human nature is sinless as that is how God created us but humans invited sin into their lives and it has since tainted our nature and distorted God's original human "blueprint".

It's only an excuse if you say "Well I have a sinful nature so I might as well just keep on sinning!"

Hmmm....I don't see that human nature has changed one bit. Adam and Eve were created with a freewill and the ability to disobey God. Eve saw the fruit was good to eat, they would be like God...lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. They sinned...we sin.

What changed when Adam and Eve sinned was their environment...not their nature. All of creation was corrupted by sin. Sin and death came into the world...

The ground was cursed..thorns and thistles, pain in childbirth, and death...dust to dust.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.