Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[Oscar3]

Nope. Did he play short stop for the Yankees?

I like to follow the other greatest theologian in history: Paul. He makes it quite plain and simple with no preconceived notions in the text.

Amazing :o Well, if you have never heard of Chuck Smith who is the founder of the Calvary Chapel churches and a unique man come from God, then you have been living under a Rock. If you took the time to study his materials, you would be able to see that you are teaching falsely. That your interpretations of the word are wrong.

http://www.thewordfortoday.org/

 

[lovely]

Guibox, I didn't know who Chuck Smith was either...not a big commentary person, though I did like the post very much Oscar. Actually, I asked my husband about him, and he not only knows who he was, but he actually knows him. :-? : And, to make matters worse, I have only just heard of the Calvary Chapel churches in the last few weeks. I feel like I am from a different planet when that stuff happens.

The Lord bless you guys.

 

[Jay T]

LUKE 16:22–28
Because this passage so obviously supports the idea of conscious existence after deathâ€â€as well as conscious suffering for the wicked following deathâ€â€the Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th day adventist and other cults go to great lengths to reinterpret it.

Eccles. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Jesus never calls this real story a “parable,†and unlike parables, which never use real names, Jesus used a real name (Lazarus) of a person.[/b]

Jesus only spoke parables to the people.....
Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear [it].
4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples".

One thing most people forget, and that is.....that NO ONE goes to heaven or hell...UNTIL AFTER....the Judgment Day of God

 

[Lewis]

Ecclesiastes 9

1For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

2All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 

[jgredline]

One thing most people forget, and that is.....that NO ONE goes to heaven or hell...UNTIL AFTER....the Judgment Day of God

Theologically speaking this would be correct.

Lewis
Its good to hear from you again I trust the move was good and the Lord watched over you

 

[Lewis]

Yes the move went ok' and I just had to go back up there to a funeral' but I am back. I think that Solomon is talking about our present bodies and state. Lets look at something else for a minute.


Job 7

1Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

2As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:

3So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me.

4When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? and I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day.

5My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.

6My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.

7O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.

8The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.

9As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

But then in Job 14 we read

Job 14

1Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

2He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.

3And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?

4Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

5Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

6Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

7For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

8Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;

9Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.

10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

14If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

15Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

16For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?

17My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

18And surely the mountains falling cometh to nought, and the rock is removed out of his place.

19The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.

20Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.

21His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

22But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.

 

[guibox]

The Bible makes it plain that man in not inherently immortal but eternal life is granted by Christ.

Immortality/eternal life is

1) Something we must obtain (Master, what must I do to obtain eternal life)

2) Something only God possesses

3) Something given to us when we accept Christ (John 3:16, Romans 6:23)

4) Something reserved only for the righteous and not for the wicked

5) Something we seek

It is the erroneous insistence that 'eternal and everlasting life' is merely interpreted as 'qualitative' by the traditionalist that their argument falls apart. It is in trying to make the clear meanings of the words their exact opposite that the argument disastrously takes one further and further away from Bible truth.

As I've said before, even if you believe that man's soul goes to heaven or hell, at the very least, it would be AFTER Christ and not before. It would be something we receive AFTER Christ, not something we inherently have.

Hence, trying to appeal to the OT to support any notion of an immortal soul is completely futile and useless. The OT not only didn't believe in such a thing, but didn't have the promised fufillment of the Messiah who was to bring 'life' to conquer 'death'.

Until the traditionalist takes off their stubborn glasses to actually see this logical NT truth, they will always be subject to trying to fill the holes they create for themselves when they don't take the Bible at it's word.

 

[jgredline]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment


The Greek word for die is ἀποθνῄσκω It is an infinate verb.

The defintion for this word is
1 to die. 1a of the natural death of man. 1b of the violent death of man or animals. 1c to perish by means of something. 1d of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted. 1e of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell.

Those of you who do not believe that Hell is eternal are in for a rude awakening. I don't see how you can believe in an eternal heaven / Life,
but not eternal Hell / death
None of you have proven yourselfs on this matter.

 

[guibox]

jg,

It is you that still has much to prove, not us.

For example:

1) What did Christ come to save us from and what did He experience on the cross that He was resurrected from?

2) Please demonstrate how the terms 'destroy', 'death' and 'perish' ALWAYS and in ALL instances mean 'eternal conscious torment'

3) Please show how the wicked are immortal and disprove every single text that says 'eternal' and 'everlasting' life are only for the righteous and not the wicked

4) Please show where the wicked are resurrected with immortal bodies like the righteous to be tormented eternally

5) Please disprove the OT language that is used to denote complete annihilation in the afterlife

6) Please show where the OT is wrong in applying the exact same language in Revelation 14 and Mark 9 to denote complete annihilation

Once you've gotten around these sufficiently instead of trying to quote your preconceived text notions as proof, we can maybe move on logically and rationally

 

[jgredline]

Sorry gUIBOX
I have provided you and your clan pages upon pages of proofs but you are blinded to the truth, so you do not see it. You need the Holy Spirits help. You should try calling on him. It works.

By the way. I find it odd that you are so fixated on this topic. Why don't u try some of the other threads?

I have been wanting to ask you.
Do u believe that Jesus is God?
Do you belive in the God head?
What church do u attend and to what Church do you belong to?

tHANKS javier

 

[Lewis]

In Job 7 it seems as if he does not believe in the resuarection resurrection but then in Job 14 we see that he does' so he is talking about the body that we go to the grave with, Right or wrong ?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sorry gUIBOX
I have provided you and your clan pages upon pages of proofs but you are blinded to hr truth, so you do not see it. You ned the Holy Spirits help. You should try calling on him. It works.

It's this insistence, jg, that you and several others on this forum are 'filled with the Holy Spirit' and we are not that REALLY bothers me. The Pentecostal 'tongue-speakers' use this very same line to defend that particular sham. In other words, YOUR merely stating that you are "Spirit-filled' does not necessarily make it so. We who might oppose your doctrine/s are just as entitled to use the very same line, that WE are "Spirit-filled' ...but we don't. Have you not noticed that ...? I guess you feel that the 'extra-padding' - not required by 'the clan' - helps your particular cause.

By the way, you have NOT provided anything other than scriptures that actually DON'T say what you so desperately desire for them to say, jg. Your doctrines are based on misconceptions of scripture (and RCC tradition) from the outset. Therefore, any biblical texts you present will be of an ambiguous nature (a little tricky for the layperson to understand) which you can slant to fit those misinterpretations. It's an old ploy and it can work on others for as long as they choose to remain in ignorant bliss. For the SERIOUS Bible scholar, however, it's a different story.

By the way. I find it out that you are so fixated on this topic. Why don't u try some of the other threads?

I have been wanting to ask you.
Do u believe that Jesus is God?
Do you belive in the God head?
What church do u attend and to what Church do you belong to?

I realize that the above was aimed at guibox but I do believe that they are loaded questions ...especially the last one. You place a lot of emphasis on one's particular Church or denomination, jg, when in fact the argument that guibox has ALWAYS presented does not come from the 'doctrines' of ANY Church as such. His arguments come DIRECTLY from the Bible! You want guibox to say that he belongs to 'whatever' Church so that you can criticize him for promoting the doctrines of that Church ...correct? You have your own agenda, jg, but SOME of us at least can see where you're headed ...! :wink:

 

[jgredline]

Sput
May I ask the same questions of you?

You see, this does matter. I would be more than happy to answer those questions. Infact I have.
You see those questions do have a bearing on which direction one believes.

You see, trully from my point of view, I have proven my point beyond a shadow of a dought and this would be affirmed by most of the readers here.

You guys feel the same as I do I am sure. So If I am dealing with say A JW, then It would say allot. JW believe the same way you guys do in regards to Hell.

So u see it does matter.....

 

[stranger]

I realize that the above was aimed at guibox but I do believe that they are loaded questions ...especially the last one. You place a lot of emphasis on one's particular Church or denomination, jg, when in fact the argument that guibox has ALWAYS presented does not come from the 'doctrines' of ANY Church as such. His arguments come DIRECTLY from the Bible! You want guibox to say that he belongs to 'whatever' Church so that you can criticize him for promoting the doctrines of that Church ...correct? You have your own agenda, jg, but SOME of us at least can see where you're headed ...! :wink:

Hi Sputnikboy

The forum statement of faith includes:
'We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will suffer forever. '

Can you subscribe to this or not?

In Christ: Stranger

 

[CP_Mike]

Sput
May I ask the same questions of you?

You see, this does matter. I would be more than happy to answer those questions. Infact I have.

No you haven't, you cannot even answer my question 'what is a soul' from another thread. I think you don't know what a soul is.

You see those questions do have a bearing on which direction one believes.

You see, trully from my point of view, I have proven my point beyond a shadow of a dought and this would be affirmed by most of the readers here.

You guys feel the same as I do I am sure. So If I am dealing with say A JW, then It would say allot. JW believe the same way you guys do in regards to Hell.

So u see it does matter.....

You have not proved anything to me. We are arguong for the case for resurrection and you seem to prescribe to the pagan Greek view of the idea that people become disembodied souls after death rather than the biblical view that people are animated whollistic beings. To state that the biblical soul has a seperate conciousness after death is a fundamental misunderstanding of what 'soul' in the bible means.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hi Sputnikboy

The forum statement of faith includes:
'We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will suffer forever. '

Can you subscribe to this or not?

In Christ: Stranger

A number of us on this forum have been debating this issue on a number of threads for several weeks, stranger. You might have to play 'catch-up' if you wish to become involved. I do believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever. And ...if you can prove to me from scripture that hell is a LITERAL place of torment where unbelievers RECEIVE IMMORTALITY and will suffer forever I will also subscribe to that belief ...fair enough?

John 3:16 is MY statement of faith. It tells me quite clearly that believers will receive eternal life and that unbelievers will perish. If the scriptures stopped there then I would require no further study to know what the ultimate fate is for the unrighteous.

 

[Drew]

So If I am dealing with say A JW, then It would say allot. JW believe the same way you guys do in regards to Hell.

You give the impression of being in a position of adhering to a doctrine that has been shown by fair and reasoned argument to be highly suspect, and now need to resort to attempting to discredit your opponent's position by shifting the issue to other things that he or she believes (e.g. by virtue of being a JW).

This is the kind of thing that another poster does all the time. It is not fair - we should all discuss the issue at hand.

 

[guibox]

Well jg, apparently not only I bit most everyone else here has missed your 'answers' to our questions.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind starting over?

Please answer my questions one at a time and only one at a time so we can discuss it. Then we are left with no excuse when you say 'I have answered it'

As for my affiliation, I am Seventh Day Adventist. That, however, has no bearing on the concept of conditional immortality for 1000s of laymen and scholars have believed it since the Reformation. As a matter of fact, only two of us here belong to that denomination. What about the other 4 or 5 who also believe as we do? Are they being 'cultic' too?

If you would only do a google search on 'eternal torment' you will find that about 90% of those Christians who oppose it do not belong to any denomination that you or anyone else might consider a 'cult'

So please don't play the cult card on this one. As for the other three questions, I believe as all of Christendom does.

Now, with that out of the way, can we get back to the topic at hand?

 

[Jay T]

Immortality, promised to man on condition of obedience, had been forfeited by transgression.

Adam could not transmit to his posterity that which he did not possess; and there could have been no hope for the fallen race had not God, by the sacrifice of His Son, brought immortality within their reach.

While "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned," Christ "hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." Romans 5:12; 2 Timothy 1:10.

And only through Christ can immortality be obtained.
Said Jesus: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life." John 3:36.
Every man may come into possession of this priceless blessing if he will comply with the conditions.

All "who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality," will receive "eternal life." Romans 2:7. {GC 533.1}

The only one who promised Adam life in disobedience was the great deceiver. And the declaration of the serpent to Eve in Eden--"Ye shall not surely die"--was the first sermon ever preached upon the immortality of the soul.

Yet this declaration, resting solely upon the authority of Satan, is echoed from the pulpits of Christendom and is received by the majority of mankind as readily as it was received by our first parents.

The divine sentence, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:20), is made to mean: The soul that sinneth, it shall not die, but live eternally. We cannot but wonder at the strange infatuation which renders men so credulous concerning the words of Satan and so unbelieving in regard to the words of God. {GC 533.2}

Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree
of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized.

But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit.
Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

But after the Fall, Satan bade his angels make a special effort to inculcate the belief in man's natural immortality; and having induced the people to receive this error, they were to lead them on to conclude that the sinner would live in eternal misery.

Now the prince of darkness, working through his agents, represents God as a revengeful tyrant, declaring that He plunges into hell all those who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and that while they suffer unutterable anguish and writhe in the eternal flames, their Creator looks down upon them with satisfaction. {GC 534.1}

Thus the archfiend clothes with his own attributes the Creator and Benefactor of mankind.
Cruelty is satanic. God is love; and all that He created was pure, holy, and lovely, until sin was brought in by the first great rebel.

Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought.

If permitted, he would sweep the entire race into his net. Were it not for the interposition of divine power, not one son or daughter of Adam would escape. {GC 534.2}


Satan is seeking to overcome men today, as he overcame our first parents, by shaking their confidence in their Creator and leading them to doubt the wisdom of His government and the justice of His laws.

Satan and his emissaries represent God as even worse than themselves, in order to justify their own malignity and rebellion.


(Great Controversy Between Christ & Satan, by E. White, Chapter 33)

 

[fallentoa]

I'm going to be a bit crazy here and say yes to the question,

Why as I know a lot of you are going to point a few things out to me but I'm going out on a limb here and please don't shout at me all at once lol.
remember this is my belief, I'm not going to explain why I believe it as I don't want to put your faith or yourself in any problem area's.
lisa