Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[CP_Mike]

I'm going to be a bit crazy here and say yes to the question,

Why as I know a lot of you are going to point a few things out to me but I'm going out on a limb here and please don't shout at me all at once lol.
remember this is my belief, I'm not going to explain why I believe it as I don't want to put your faith or yourself in any problem area's.
lisa

Hi Lisa,
The idea of the 'immortality of the soul' is prevailent throughout the Christian faith. I for a long time believed that my soul would go yto Heaven or Hell after I died. It was only when I studied this at theological level did I realise there was a world of difference between the biblical 'soul' and the meaning that I was brought up with.
I would be interested to know why you believe what you believe if you feel able to.

 

[jgredline]

Well jg, apparently not only I bit most everyone else here has missed your 'answers' to our questions.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind starting over?

Please answer my questions one at a time and only one at a time so we can discuss it. Then we are left with no excuse when you say 'I have answered it'

As for my affiliation, I am Seventh Day Adventist. That, however, has no bearing on the concept of conditional immortality for 1000s of laymen and scholars have believed it since the Reformation. As a matter of fact, only two of us here belong to that denomination. What about the other 4 or 5 who also believe as we do? Are they being 'cultic' too?

If you would only do a google search on 'eternal torment' you will find that about 90% of those Christians who oppose it do not belong to any denomination that you or anyone else might consider a 'cult'

So please don't play the cult card on this one. As for the other three questions, I believe as all of Christendom does.

Now, with that out of the way, can we get back to the topic at hand?

Guibox
Thanks for answering my question regarding what you believe / and denomination..

Go ahead and ask your question. I will answer your question and ask you a question in return and so forth..
Lets keep it in the context of the scriptures. Not man made doctrines. Agreed?

 

[jgredline]

I'm going to be a bit crazy here and say yes to the question, AMEN SISTER

Why as I know a lot of you are going to point a few things out to me but I'm going out on a limb here and please don't shout at me all at once lol.
remember this is my belief, I'm not going to explain why I believe it as I don't want to put your faith or yourself in any problem area's.
lisa

Lisa
Welcome to the board and welcome to the jungle

 

[guibox]

Guibox
Thanks for answering my question regarding what you believe and denomination..

And thank you for not making an unnecessary issue out of it.

Go ahead and ask your question. I will answer your question and ask you a question in return and so forth..
Lets keep it in the context of the scriptures. Not man made doctrines. Agreed?

Okay...Here we go...

1) What did Christ come to save us from and what did He experience on the cross that He was resurrected from?

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm going to be a bit crazy here and say yes to the question,

AMEN SISTER

That simply means that you appear to agree with jg, fallentoa. Whether or not it may or may not be scriptural is irrelevant ... :wink:

Why as I know a lot of you are going to point a few things out to me but I'm going out on a limb here and please don't shout at me all at once lol.
remember this is my belief, I'm not going to explain why I believe it as I don't want to put your faith or yourself in any problem area's.
lisa

Well, you really DO need to expand on WHY you believe what you believe, fallentoa. If that were me, jg would come back at me NOT with an 'Amen' but with a 'that's just your opinion, Sput ...' You see the way jg works ...? You'll find out that he's a funny guy but relatively harmless. :-D

 

[Atonement]

Let's please stay on topic and stop with the personal (name) references. Thank you

 

[fallentoa]

Hi Lisa,
The idea of the 'immortality of the soul' is prevailent throughout the Christian faith. I for a long time believed that my soul would go yto Heaven or Hell after I died. It was only when I studied this at theological level did I realise there was a world of difference between the biblical 'soul' and the meaning that I was brought up with.
I would be interested to know why you believe what you believe if you feel able to.

Well 10 yrs ago, seems longer than that lol. I used to go to church, yes I was a christian lol.
Anyway at the time both myself and my father was dying, me with heart problems until I had an operation and my dad with terminal cancer which was pretty bad for any family to cope with at the time.
right you have the background lol, now why I believe what I do.
A few days before my dad died, he was in a state of not knowing who any of us was, some days I was a nurse, doctor or anything else he called me as the cancer had gone to his brain, well I've grown up with a so called gift of seeing things which others can't, some would call it psychic ability, I call it punishment lol. Anyway we all used to spend some time alone with our dad to say our last words, or so I thought (but that's another area which some of you don't want me talking about in here lol). well it was my turn to sit with him and my dad had recently given his life over to God and his appearance had changed, it was as if he knew the time was short on this world. I was lucky to notice this change as I started to see what he was seeing, I'll never forget it til my dying day, the sight was amazing the place was completely different to what this place is like. I saw my two brothers who I've never met before as they died before I was born. They was getting ready to collect my dad and take him on to his next journey. I know that many of you won't agree with what I've put but you have asked me and I'm just being open with you.
My dad only lasted a few hours after that and it felt really good to be part of what was happening at the time.
Not long after that my mum became a christian and she's still going strong but me I've left this path and gone onto another but I still believe in people moving on to another world. It's also part of my faith as a pagan.
Yes, I'm a witch as this was the only way I'd get some peace from the stuff I was seeing as I didn't want the gifts and never have.

As someone who believes that you go onto other things, please remember that we come in the world with nothing and leave with nothing, we only leave memories with the people who are left behind. When we die it's just the shell of the body we are leaving behind and we have moved on to better things. How many of us spend more time in grief instead of moving on with our lives, it doesn't bring the person back does it, it's not going to change the world if we carry on this selfish act as it only affects us and not the person who's died. They can't come back as the shell hsa been buried or cremated, would you like to come back if you had died in pain, knowing that you'd be coming back to that, I wouldn't lol.
Anyway this is my belief, you don't have to accept what I say as you have free will, I'll be interested to find out if any of you feel the same way.
lisa

 

[fallentoa]

Well, you really DO need to expand on WHY you believe what you believe, fallentoa. If that were me, jg would come back at me NOT with an 'Amen' but with a 'that's just your opinion, Sput ...' You see the way jg works ...? You'll find out that he's a funny guy but relatively harmless. :-D

I did think it was amusing and I've got a better joke, jg has agreed with a witch lol, not many people do in a place like this lol.
I may be a witch but I've got a big heart for anyone
lisa

 

[babycakes]

Sorry to sound dumb here, but my mother always said - you never know if you never ask ;)

But i read Luke 16 and was wondering if someone could type the question up simply.

Are you asking that there is life after death? Or that when you die you are payed back for the things you done in life?

Sorry im a bit of a newbie to this!

 

[guibox]

Sorry to sound dumb here, but my mother always said - you never know if you never ask ;)

But i read Luke 16 and was wondering if someone could type the question up simply.

Are you asking that there is life after death? Or that when you die you are payed back for the things you done in life?

Sorry im a bit of a newbie to this!

Hi babycakes, welcome to the forum. Here is an excellent expose on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. So many here will take this as clear teaching of what happens when you die while ignoring the symbolism and metaphor. Also their are a myriad of contradictions, inconsistencies, erroneous teachings and no biblical support for most of its contents anywhere else in scripture.

It is long but it is a revealing article on this...Enjoy!

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

 

[jgredline]

Okay...Here we go...

1) What did Christ come to save us from and what did He experience on the cross that He was resurrected from?

Gui
Ok. I was kinda hoping that your question was based on a scripture.
No matter though. This is as good a place as any to start.

Here are the answers to both your questions.

The answer to your first question is found in
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

The answer to your second question is much more simple or complicated.
To put it simply, Jesus took on the full wrath of God as all of my Sins and yours where placed on him..


Now let me ask you a question.
Explain to me Matt 25:41-46..
Please use scripture to back up your answers as we agreed to do.

Matt 25:41-46 KJV
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Keep in mind that it is the goats that are on the left.

 

[jgredline]

I did think it was amusing and I've got a better joke, jg has agreed with a witch lol, not many people do in a place like this lol.
I may be a witch but I've got a big heart for anyone
lisa

Hey Lisa
Well, then you are most welcome to the board. You being a witch could certainly add some insight to this discussion.
Regardless if your a witch, christian, catholic, hindu, what ever it may be, truth is truth. You have already acknowledged one truth..

Again I especailly look forward to your comments and again welcome.

p.s. I have known and met quite a few witches over the years. Many of them have come to Know Christ and I pray the same for you.

 

[guibox]

The answer to your first question is found in
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, ?we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God....To put it simply, Jesus took on the full wrath of God as all of my Sins and yours where placed on him..

Your answers are very vague and miss alot of biblical explanation, jg. Here are my answers:

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned - Romans 5:12

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead - 1 Cor 15:21

Christ died and rose again with a spiritual body. He experienced the eternal separation of death from the Father so much that He cried out on the cross, 'My God why has Thou forsaken Me?' Jesus resurrected from this death and conquered it.

This is what He experienced and in so doing, abolished death for all who choose it. Jesus did not abolish eternal torment, nor did He experience it.

Now let me ask you a question.
Explain to me Matt 25:41-46..
Please use scripture to back up your answers as we agreed to do.

Matt 25:41-46 KJV
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What is this 'punishment' that is everlasting?

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life - Romans 6:23

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned - Romans 5:12

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead - 1 Cor 15:21

For God loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life - John 3:16

Man sinned, man was destined to die eternally, Christ came, died for us, experienced death in its fullest and conquered it.

If we don't accept this gift, we do not receive eternal life but still remain in death. Hence, the punishment is not 'eternal punishing' but the wages of sin which is 'death'. You must realize that in Matthew 25 and in all these other chapters there is CONTRAST not a similar comparison. The more opposite they are, the better.

Now for number #2...

[/code]

 

[mutzrein]

If we don't accept this gift, we do not receive eternal life but still remain in death. Hence, the punishment is not 'eternal punishing' but the wages of sin which is 'death'. You must realize that in Matthew 25 and in all these other chapters there is CONTRAST not a similar comparison. The more opposite they are, the better.

In general I agree with this guibox, but would like to clarify your understanding of not accepting the gift.

Do you think the prerogative is God's 'to give the gift' or man's 'to accept the gift'.

 

[jgredline]

jgredline wrote:

The answer to your first question is found in
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, ?we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God....To put it simply, Jesus took on the full wrath of God as all of my Sins and yours where placed on him..

Your answers are very vague and miss alot of biblical explanation, jg.

Here are my answers:

Quote: guibox
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned - Romans 5:12

Guibox
While my Answers were short they were quite accurate. I could not have explained them better than the scriptures.

Let me now proceed to explain Romans 5:12 to you. For the sake of context it is important to know that the rest of chapter 5 serves as a bridge between the first part of the letter and the next three chapters. It is linked with the first part by picking up the subjects of condemnation through Adam and justification through Christ, and by showing that the work of Christ far outweighs in blessing what the work of Adam did in misery and loss. It is linked with chapters 6–8 by moving from justification to sanctification, and from acts of sin to the sin in human nature.

Guibox incase you have not noticed Romans is my favorite of Pauls letters and I know this book well in both English and Greek.

Adam is portrayed in these verses as the federal head or representative of all those who are in the old creation. Christ is presented as the Federal Head of all those who are in the new creation. A federal head acts for all those who are under him. For example, when the President of a country signs a bill into law, he is acting for all the citizens of that country.
That is what happened in Adam’s case. As a result of his sin, human death entered the world. Death became the common lot of all Adam’s descendants because they had all sinned in him. It is true that they all committed individual acts of sin as well, but that is not the thought here. Paul’s point is that Adam’s sin was a representative act, and all his posterity are reckoned as having sinned in him.

It was Eve and not Adam who committed the first sin on earth, but since Adam was the first to be created, headship was given to him. So he is seen as acting for all his descendants.

When the Apostle Paul says here that death spread to all men, he is referring to physical death, even though Adam’s sin brought spiritual death as well. (Vv. 13 and 14 show that physical death is in view.)

I have a feeling I know what your thinking here. Maybe, maybe not but lets take a look anyway. Besides I am in the mood to type here in the comfort of my own home on my favorite couch watching Paula White on TBN preaching heresy...:roll:
When we come to this passage of Scripture, certain questions inevitably arise. Is it fair that Adam’s posterity should be constituted sinners just because he sinned? Does God condemn men for being born sinners, or only for those sins which they have actually committed? If men are born with a sinful nature, and if they therefore sin because they are born sinners, how can God hold them responsible for what they do?

Bible theologians have wrestled with these and a host of similar problems and have come up with a surprising variety of conclusions. However, there are certain facts that we can be sure of.

First, the Bible does teach that all men are sinners, both by nature and by practice. Everyone born of human parents inherits Adam’s sin, and also sins by his own deliberate choice.

Second, we know that the wages of sin is deathâ€â€both physical death and eternal separation from God.

But no one has to pay the penalty of sin unless he wants to. This is the important point. At enormous cost, God sent His Son to die as a Substitute for sinners. Salvation from sin and its wages is offered as a free gift through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Man is condemned on these grounds: He has a sinful nature, and he is a sinner by practice. But his crowning guilt is his re jection of the provision which God has made for his salvation (John 3:18, 19, 36).

But someone will ask, “What about those who have never heard the gospel?†This question is answered in part, at least, in chapter 1and 2 but this debate is for another thread. Beyond that we can rest in the assurance that the Judge of all the earth will do right (Gen. 18:25). He will never act unjustly or unfairly. All His decisions are based on equity and righteousness. Although certain situations pose problems to our dim sight, they are not problems to Him. When the last case has been heard and the doors of the courtroom swing shut, no one will have a legitimate basis for appealing the verdict.

Now lets take a closer look at this verse Romans 5:12
12 δια τουτο ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους ο θανατος διηλθεν εφ ω παντες ημαρτον

Lets look at the context in which the word death is used here. The word death in the Greek is ''thanatos'' This noun follows the definate article ὁ and preceeds the verb διηλθεν

So in the context of this verse the word death means: the death of the body. that separation the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended, with the implied idea of future misery in hell. Never does the Greek leave any interpretation that this is temporary..
There was a Reason God choose the Greek language to express himself with.

Quote:guibox
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead - 1 Cor 15:21


Christ died and rose again with a spiritual body. He experienced the eternal separation of death from the Father so much that He cried out on the cross, 'My God why has Thou forsaken Me?' Jesus resurrected from this death and conquered it.

This is what He experienced and in so doing, abolished death for all who choose it. Jesus did not abolish eternal torment, nor did He experience it.

jgredline wrote:

Now let me ask you a question.
Explain to me Matt 25:41-46..
Please use scripture to back up your answers as we agreed to do.

Matt 25:41-46 KJV
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What is this 'punishment' that is everlasting?

The everlasting punishment that Jesus is speaking of is the Lake of fire for all eternity with the devil and his angels. You must have read right over the verse. Here it is again Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Quote:guibox
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life - Romans 6:23

This is true. We agree here. By the way the word death here is also used in the same context as Romans 5:12

Quote:guibox
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned - Romans 5:12

I already broke this down for you.

Quote:guibox
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead - 1 Cor 15:21

Well with out repeating myself again I will simply explain this verse.
It was by man that death first came into the world. That man was Adam. Through his sin, death came upon all men. God sent His Son into the world as a Man in order to undo the work of the first man and to raise believers to a state of blessedness such as they could never have known in Adam. Thus it was by the Man Christ Jesus that there came the resurrection of the dead.

Quote:guibox
For God loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life - John 3:16

Amen. I agree with this 100%


Man sinned, man was destined to die eternally, Christ came, died for us, experienced death in its fullest and conquered it.

In a nutshell yes, but I would have word it differantly. Since I did explain my position in your first question I will not do it again.

If we don't accept this gift, we do not receive eternal life but still remain in death.

For the sake of clarity, What is this gift exactly?

Hence, the punishment is not 'eternal punishing' but the wages of sin which is 'death'.

To not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will infact mean death everlasting as I have already explained above. The problem is you do not undertand the word death and what it really means in the context of those scriptures. And even if death means something differant like death, it still does not mean a temporary death..

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment


The Greek word for die is ἀποθνῄσκω It is an infinate verb.

The defintion for this word is
1 to die. 1a of the natural death of man. 1b of the violent death of man or animals. 1c to perish by means of something. 1d of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted. 1e of eternal death, to be subject to eternal misery in hell.

You must realize that in Matthew 25 and in all these other chapters there is CONTRAST not a similar comparison. The more opposite they are, the better.

Exactly. The Lord Jesus Christ is saying what he means and he means what he is saying. Eternal life or eternal punishement in Hell..
No matter how you try and spin the scriptures to fit your beliefs, it aint gonna happen.

 

[jgredline]

Guibox
Explain this verse to me. Inparticular look at verse 9

2 Thess 1:3-9
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


Now Guibox
I am going to throw you a bone.
I know this verse is used to seemingly back up your position.
Keep in mind that I know this :wink:

 

[guibox]

jg,

You have to answer my second question before you throw one at me, remember?

However, I am not finished with the first one yet.

To say that Romans 5:12 is talking merely about the 'physical death' means that this 'life' Christ brings also applies to this physical life. Whether we are 'alive in Christ' doesn't mean that we still won't physically die. The life that Christ brings that replaces this death is eternal life. Again, we go to Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 (of which you must agree that this 'perishing' is not talking about merely the physical death) to cooborate it.

You are talking exact same verses and making them say different things! John 3:16 is talking about the afterlife when Romans 5:12 is not...

This is incorrect, my friend and a cop out to avoid the clear language of 'thanatos' in applying to the wicked...And please don't quote me Strongs for there is NOTHING in ANY context or usage of 'thanatos' that means 'my soul consciously perishing in eternal fire' this is Greek dualism read into the passage.

Christ brought life due to Adam's death. Our punishment was NOT eternal torment. Our wages or punishment for sinning was what Adam brought: death

You cannot avoid this simple argument and all you twisting to make 'death' mean 'eternal torment' is completely ludicrous hermeutics.

 

[jgredline]

jg,

You have to answer my second question before you throw one at me, remember?

What was your second question? I took along time in posting my answer to you. Just because my answer does not fit with what you believe or want to hear does not mean its not answered. Go back and read it again. Your answer of Matt 25 if you want to get techinical is no answer. Please do us both a favor and keep the verses in context. You have the bad habbit of throwing out single verses and thus you miss the context. If you notice, when I give you verses, I give you both the entire context of the scripture, not just 1 verse. I also answer the questions in context according to the scriptures. To do it any other way is teaching falsely. For example. Look at the question I asked you regarding 2 Thess. I gave you the the context of what paul is saying and highlighted the Key verse I am intersted in you answering. Now if you do not want to this way, then this debate can go no further.
The way you answered Matt 25 is with a question. ''What is punishment?'' That is no answer.

I more than answered your question. I explained it to you. I took your questions one by one all the way down. How can you say I did not answer your question.


However, I am not finished with the first one yet.

To say that Romans 5:12 is talking merely about the 'physical death' means that this 'life' Christ brings also applies to this physical life. Whether we are 'alive in Christ' doesn't mean that we still won't physically die. The life that Christ brings that replaces this death is eternal life. Again, we go to Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 (of which you must agree that this 'perishing' is not talking about merely the physical death) to cooborate it.

Guibox
Do not take me out of context. Here is what I wrote. Go back and read it again. ''When the Apostle Paul says here that death spread to all men, he is referring to physical death, even though Adam’s sin brought spiritual death as well. (Vv. 13 and 14 show that physical death is in view.)
You convieniantly left out the part where I said that Adams death also brough spirtual death. But again if you understand this verse and you obviusly don't paul is refering to a phyisical death in Romans 5:12.. as I explained using the Greek in my previous post. Read it again.

You are talking exact same verses and making them say different things! John 3:16 is talking about the afterlife when Romans 5:12 is not..

I agree in part with this above statement. John 3:16 is speaking about eternal life.
Romans 5:12 is speaking of the Bodies death and again I quote myself
''So in the context of this verse the word death means: the death of the body. that separation the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended, with the implied idea of future misery in hell. Never does the Greek leave any interpretation that this is temporary..
There was a Reason God choose the Greek language to express himself with.''



This is incorrect, my friend and a cop out to avoid the clear language of 'thanatos' in applying to the wicked...And please don't quote me Strongs for there is NOTHING in ANY context or usage of 'thanatos' that means 'my soul consciously perishing in eternal fire' this is Greek dualism read into the passage.


Guibox
Again. Just because the truth does not fit with what you believe does not make it an un-truth. Truth is truth my friend. I also do know that people have even found a way to twist the Greek Look at the Demon inspired JW bible? They got 2 ''Greek experts to translate the Greek for them'' and one of those translators repented of his false interpretation, but the damage was done. WE NOW HAVE THE WATCHTOWER CULT BIBLE. Guibox, I am not calling you a cult either so don't begin to think that. If I were going to call you a cult I would, but up untill now I do not believe you are one or belong to one. While the 7TH day adventise have some strange practices, I do not consider them a cult. I do not know enough about them to make that judgement.
Now back on topic. So as far as the Greek goes, I studied it for 2 1/2 years and have now started a class on A GRAMMATICAL ANALYSIS OF THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT.. This is trully where the rubber meats the road. In order to be able to take this class, one must know beyond the basics of Greek because most of the class is in Greek. I say this to you not to boast but to show you I am no dummy. I know that you are used to debating this issue.
Your questions are ready made, your answers are already there, you have your sources ready to copy and paste and you are very defensive.

I have never in my entire life debated this issue of the Soul, Death, eternal torment. etc, This forum was for me the first time.

The only thing I have going for me in this debate is this.
I know my bible
I Know how to interpret it ( Hermenutics)
I can read Greek and write some
I understand basic Greek Grammar, I have just started my advanced class.
Most importantly, I have the Holy Spirit who teaches me.



Christ brought life due to Adam's death. Our punishment was NOT eternal torment. Our wages or punishment for sinning was what Adam brought: death

I agree, The wages of sin is Death..

You cannot avoid this simple argument and all you twisting to make 'death' mean 'eternal torment' is completely ludicrous hermeutics.

This is your opinion. As I have already explained it to you a few paragraphs above. You know what I repost it for you.
Now lets take a closer look at this verse Romans 5:12
12 δια τουτο ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους ο θανατος διηλθεν εφ ω παντες ημαρτον

Lets look at the context in which the word death is used here. The word death in the Greek is ''thanatos'' This noun follows the definate article ὁ and preceeds the verb διηλθεν

So in the context of this verse the word death means: the death of the body. that separation the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended, with the implied idea of future misery in hell. Never does the Greek leave any interpretation that this is temporary..
There was a Reason God choose the Greek language to express himself with.

 

[guibox]

jg, I'm not sure why you have changed your posting procedure, but it is awfully confusing. Especially when you include previous replies to my posts and post them all together.

Anyway, the reason why you are so adamant against my interpretation of Romans 5 is because of your insistence to separate 'death' from 'eternal conscious torment' and making two fates for the wicked instead of one that carries over into eternity.

I state again, if Adam brought death and Christ brought life, then you must say that we will NOT physically die on this earth if we have Christ, to translate Romans 5 as you have. This is obviously wrong. The death that Adam brought would continue (and will continue, though being interrupted by the judgment and fire) for those who do not accept life, even if we also physically die due to Adam's sin.

This is something you refuse to accept. Death is death and death is our lot without Christ.

Anyway, i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. The fact is, is that nowhere does the bible say that He came to die to save us from the Hell He created, nor is that what He experienced in the grave. He tasted death and died the eternal death that we were bound for but His life/soul wasn't left in the grave but resurrected to conquer death

No eternal soul or spirit here at all, and definitely NOT for the wicked.

Anyway, when I said answer my questions, I was speaking of the 6 ones I previously stated before we got into this debate. You were to answre it then post one for me to answer. We did that. You gave me Matthew 25. Now we need to move on to the next one. After that, you can give me Thessalonians again to answer.

I will post them again.

1) What did Christ come to save us from and what did He experience on the cross that He was resurrected from?

2) Please demonstrate how the terms 'destroy', 'death' and 'perish' ALWAYS and in ALL instances mean 'eternal conscious torment'

3) Please show how the wicked are immortal and disprove every single text that says 'eternal' and 'everlasting' life are only for the righteous and not the wicked

4) Please show where the wicked are resurrected with immortal bodies like the righteous to be tormented eternally

5) Please disprove the OT language that is used to denote complete annihilation in the afterlife

6) Please show where the OT is wrong in applying the exact same language in Revelation 14 and Mark 9 to denote complete annihilation

 

[jgredline]

Guibox
When we agreed to start over you said and I quote you

''Okay...Here we go...

1) What did Christ come to save us from and what did He experience on the cross that He was resurrected from?''

This was the very question I answered.

Now you introduce after the fact

1) What did Christ come to save us from and what did He experience on the cross that He was resurrected from?

2) Please demonstrate how the terms 'destroy', 'death' and 'perish' ALWAYS and in ALL instances mean 'eternal conscious torment'

3) Please show how the wicked are immortal and disprove every single text that says 'eternal' and 'everlasting' life are only for the righteous and not the wicked

4) Please show where the wicked are resurrected with immortal bodies like the righteous to be tormented eternally

5) Please disprove the OT language that is used to denote complete annihilation in the afterlife

6) Please show where the OT is wrong in applying the exact same language in Revelation 14 and Mark 9 to denote complete annihilation

Now I will answer your questions when I get home from work tonight.
I would appreciate if you answer my questions as well just as I have answered yours.
Your posting procedure confuses me as well. I will work on mine also. I will also keep my answers and questions in blue.
I know that much of your theology is based on the word death.
We will have plenty of time to look at the other words like souls for example.