Earthly things and Heavenly things... the Israel of God and the church of God...

[jasoncran]

ok. i well i await mr. tris response. im going to tie what the jews called the heavenlies to what jesus is and then show you why a third temple cant be.

i have a whole nother way of seeing isreal restored.

 

[Tri Unity]

The question of this thread started in seed from questioning the understanding of the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16), and "All Israel will be saved" (Romans 9).

 

[jasoncran]

The question of this thread started in seed from questioning the understanding of the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16), and "All Israel will be saved" (Romans 9).

that is adressed and i will adress it again. god has setside a remnant of jews that will believe. that is isreal of god. once doesnt have to be in isreal to be of that. only 1/3 of the jews live in isreal. and of that its even less who practice judiasm.no ac is needed to do that.just the blood.

what is the function of this isreal of god? to serve a purpose?

 

[reba]

Dear reba,

Eventide has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Earthly things and Heavenly things... the Israel of God and the church of God... - in the Apologetics & Theology forum of Christian Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44486&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by reba)---
I wont play in this thread, as much as i would like too. I will and have deleted personal attacks..... Just stop and discuss points and be nice. reba
---End Quote---
Thanks Reba, since jasoncran took it over as usual.. He can have it, he knows everything anyway.

You folks figure it out... Oh right, you already know it all.
***************

Sorry you feel this way and very sorry you post and delete. This would be a great topic.

personal attacks were deleted on all sides.

 

[jasoncran]

ok alrighty then. well any futurist can easily stump me if the bible supports theire position.

lets also add in james 1. that first verses is address the twelve tribes. how is the possible if god is going to that in some future date when its clear?

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

note some of them believed. my brethren. god must be saving them.i would say that are indeed isreal. i do wish to show you the "heavenlies" as well. it has a purpose.

 

[Tri Unity]

There are no scriptures or Church Fathers that give the slightest idea that God was saving Israel for one purpose and Gentiles for another. There is enormous scriptural evidence and Church Father evidence that the purpose of Israel and the purpose of the Church are one and the same.

 

[jasoncran]

There are no scriptures or Church Fathers that give the slightest idea that God was saving Israel for one purpose and Gentiles for another. There is enormous scriptural evidence and Church Father evidence that the purpose of Israel and the purpose of the Church are one and the same.

ok then so why then do you believe in any form of state of isreal with third temple in the millenium? the modern church teaches from the prophets that isreal would return and be the light unto the gentiles.

i reject that form of eschatology. but the church isnt isreal. to say that it is in agaisnt the tos here. this site rejects replacement theology.

 

[Tri Unity]

the church isnt isreal. to say that it is in agaisnt the tos here. this site rejects replacement theology.

Ok, I will stay off this topic then.

 

[jasoncran]

Ok, I will stay off this topic then.

i didnt think you were saying that. but well i know vic when he was admin deleted posts of that nature.

as far as function in what god was to have isreal to do and the church its the same(by a light to the lost). its in deutermony 4.

 

[Tri Unity]

i don't think that Replacement Theology or Covenant Theology truly reprents my own views, but I believe something similar to both. I don't believe the Church "replaced" Israel... I believe the Church is Israel. We have the same Mosaic law-giver, and we have the same Abraham as the father of our faith. The promise given to Israel is fulfilled in all those who are truly Abraham's seed according to the promise; for the righteous shall live by faith. This has always been the case; from Abel down to Zacharias, as Hebrews 11 demonstrates.

 

[jasoncran]

i don't think that Replacement Theology or Covenant Theology truly reprents my own views, but I believe something similar to both. I don't believe the Church "replaced" Israel... I believe the Church is Israel. We have the same Mosaic law-giver, and we have the same Abraham as the father of our faith. The promise given to Israel is fulfilled in all those who are truly Abraham's seed according to the promise; for the righteous shall live by faith. This has always been the case; from Abel down to Zacharias, as Hebrews 11 demonstrates.

uh thats called what the bible teaches. what the futurists of today say is that isreal is only god's people and the gentiles are grafted in.in brief somehow im better because im jewish and in christ then you a gentile in christ when there never was such thing. even the jews DARE not think that, as a kid my dad made it clear the the jews were to humble that god choose them to be his kids. he implied with noah, enoch and adam being gentiles not jews. abraham believed by faith, it never ever had anything to do with blood. in fact it had to with a promise by god and abraham by faith believing it. he then being faithful taught his sons and isaac did to. but these hebrews had to believe to be in isreal or die.its clearly in the torah.

dont confuse zionism with your bible

that is saying i have come up with. schofield did that.,he placed the cross below isreal. when isreal with its temple point to the very image of CHRIST on the cross!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tri Unity]

uh thats called what the bible teaches. what the futurists of today say is that isreal is only god's people and the gentiles are grafted in.in brief somehow im better because im jewish and in christ then you a gentile in christ when there never was such thing. even the jews DARE not think that, as a kid my dad made it clear the the jews were to humble that god choose them to be his kids. he implied with noah, enoch and adam being gentiles not jews. abraham believed by faith, it never ever had anything to do with blood. in fact it had to with a promise by god and abraham by faith believing it. he then being faithful taught his sons and isaac did to. but these hebrews had to believe to be in isreal or die.its clearly in the torah.

that is saying i have come up with. schofield did that.,he placed the cross below isreal. when isreal with its temple point to the very image of CHRIST on the cross!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure... we seem to be saying the same thing. Scofield's unique view is not "futurist"; it is "dispensationalism". I am a futurist, but I also believe some Preterist views, and I don't agree with "dispensations" that Scofield and Darby believed. They were heavily influenced by Jewish financiers. The Early Fathers never taught this, and that is what I uphold also.

 

[jasoncran]

i took me a while to see that.sadly the american church is too weak imho to see that maybe the case. they would assume that is anti-semetic to allow it in the open.i dont think that the jewish financiers can be proven to have influenced the men like darby but its possible. the problem i have with looking into that is that i get the anti-semites saying isreal is all bad and the problem. but darby was a cultist and the plymouth brethren is a cult and well cis is a best dubious and the worst a false prophet.

 

[jasoncran]

http://www.theopedia.com/Plymouth_Brethren

we can see that in dispensationlists today.not all of it but alot. i would say that is a cult in that they are isolationists.

 

[Tri Unity]

i dont think that the jewish financiers can be proven to have influenced the men like darby but its possible.

You can read the few books on Scofield to understand who was financing him. Samuel Untermeyer initiated his Zionist mentors to intervene for Scofield. Strings were pulled to make sure Scofield bible became the "best selling bible". It is fairly well substantiated.

Another interesting Zionist connection came though Charles Taze Russell. Russell wrote to Lord Rothschild and Baron Hirsch offering to be a Zionist promoter and correspondent in Israel.

http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r1342.htm

This was when the Watchtower promoted a Zionist agenda - they later changed this position under Rutherford. That is one of the reasons so many Jews were attracted to the JW's; they had Rothschild's endorsement. The JW's would not have become a worldwide religion without the Rothschild's financing them and assisting the distribution of their books. Rothschild did this because he financed anyone who supported the Zionist agenda, or the "returning Jew" philosophy. He still does today. Oh well, that's a different subject.

 

[jasoncran]

its nausating for me to look at that stuff online as it winds up being the evil jews are ruining america.

so lets focus on schofield and the rothchild influence on him.

 

[Tri Unity]

its nausating for me to look at that stuff online as it winds up being the evil jews are ruining america.

so lets focus on schofield and the rothchild influence on him.

The Rothschilds and the "evil Jews" do not control things; God does. Every government has been ordained by God (Romans 13:1). God has brought Israel back; not the Rothschilds nor the English. This is in God's greater plan. Rothschild is simply God's servant - as Caesar, Cyrus and Pharaoh was.

 

[jasoncran]

The Rothschilds and the "evil Jews" do not control things; God does. Every government has been ordained by God (Romans 13:1). God has brought Israel back; not the Rothschilds nor the English. This is in God's greater plan. Rothschild is simply God's servant - as Caesar, Cyrus and Pharaoh was.

god allowed it for sure but show me where in any prophecy isreal was to return while they are rejecting christ? show me in the word. one can say easily that as the first diaspora ended with the faithful return so shall it be once again. that is how i see it after christ final judgment and only then.

 

[Tri Unity]

god allowed it for sure but show me where in any prophecy isreal was to return while they are rejecting christ? show me in the word. one can say easily that as the first diaspora ended with the faithful return so shall it be once again. that is how i see it after christ final judgment and only then.

Firstly, I believe the Jews have been returned only in order for God to punish them as a nation for their unbelief. God will do this in front of the entire world, so the world knows that God has judged them.

Secondly, there are a lot of scriptures to this effect. It was also the teaching of the ante-Nicene fathers. Israel (via the Rothschilds) are being used to deceive the church also. I will elaborate another time if you are still interested. This is something for a different topic.

 

[jasoncran]

uh no. first off when the jews rejected the messiah its clear in matthew 24 why they would die and those listened were to do what? leave that city and flee to the mountains. that was made clear so that the blood of all the saints would come upon jerusalem.

that is enough. being a gentile you dont know.i have seen it in their funeral services. like i said i will lay a rock at my relatives resting place and post what the jews say on the messiah.

that is why i dont buy your post on the fathers view on the seven year trib in daniel and also why the ac is a spirit or a person but not a goverment.

he can be a horn. but not a person. nero fits that well and what happened in ad 70.