Eat Me!

[Pegasus]

I find it odd that you so easily dismiss a direct deciple of the Apostle John.... a man who sat at the feet of John.
If you could ask the Apostle John what he meant when he wrote John 6, what do you think he would say? I am sure Ignatious and John had many discussions on the matter.

Did Ignatius quote the Bread of Life discourse?

 

[Pegasus]

Read the line above that one: "but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

Indeed but he also said:

Now it is evident, that in this prophecy to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho).

If I had a dollar each time we could find a competing quote from the same church father, I would not have to work another day.

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the Eucharist a sacrifice for sins?

 

[childeye]

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the Eucharist a sacrifice for sins?

Excellent question.

 

[stovebolts]

Did Ignatius quote the Bread of Life discourse?

Not sure exactly what that is.
Sorry

 

[Jim Parker]

You went down this rabbit hole, not me.

That is false. You have changed the subject.

The least you can do is answer the question......

I am not going to play your game.

 

[Pegasus]

Not sure exactly what that is.
Sorry

When he taught about the Eucharist was it in the context of the Last Supper or John 6 the Bread of Life discourse.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is surprising someone from the Eastern Church would use the 'father of Latin Christianity.' I think both the Eastern and Western churches found some of his doctrines a bit controversial and probably why he is not recognized as a Saint in either of the One True Churches.

His teaching on the Eucharist is orthodox.

 

[Jim Parker]

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the Eucharist a sacrifice for sins?

Read Athanasius' On the Incarnation

 

[Jim Parker]

Not understanding the context set forth by Christ in verses 26-40 sets up many for the literal errors assumed in the remainder of the discourse.

The teaching of the Church that the bread is the body of Christ and the wine His blood is not an error.
It required that one do violence to the scriptures in order to make metaphor out of what is clearly presented as literal.
The early Church recognized it to be literal.
I will not attempt to second guess them.

 

[Johan]

Eating and drinking has to do with sustaining and adding Life.

 

[Johan]

Hi Johan, Eating and drinking has to do with sustaining life.

Yep. And adding more Life.

 

[stovebolts]

When he taught about the Eucharist was it in the context of the Last Supper or John 6 the Bread of Life discourse.

Well, I would have to assume John and Ignatious spoke about all of the above....

 

[Jim Parker]

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the Eucharist a sacrifice for sins?

I think I misunderstood your question.
If you are asking whether the EO Church considers the bread/body and wine/blood to be a new or repeated sacrifice for sins, the answer is, no.
In the manner that the Jewish Seder meal is a participation in the first Passover, similarly, the offering of the body and blood of Christ is a participation in the sacrifice of Christ once for all.

 

[Pegasus]

Well, I would have to assume John and Ignatious spoke about all of the above....

If you have any works where there is allusion to the passages involved, I would be eager to examine them. Thanks.

 

[Pegasus]

I think I misunderstood your question.
If you are asking whether the EO Church considers the bread/body and wine/blood to be a new or repeated sacrifice for sins, the answer is, no.
In the manner that the Jewish Seder meal is a participation in the first Passover, similarly, the offering of the body and blood of Christ is a participation in the sacrifice of Christ once for all.

Thanks. I would assume the Eastern Orthodox would take issue with how the Council of Trent (claimed in the Roman Rite as an ecumenical council) stated thus:

"If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema." (Trent: On the Sacrifice of the Mass: Canon 3);

 

[Jim Parker]

Thanks. I would assume the Eastern Orthodox would take issue with how the Council of Trent (claimed in the Roman Rite as an ecumenical council) stated thus:
"If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema." (Trent: On the Sacrifice of the Mass: Canon 3);

I am not conversant on all the teachings of the council of Trent.
From the above, I don't know to what they were referring by the words "pains, satisfactions, and other necessities."
Our sins are remitted through baptism. (Acts 2:38; Ro 6:3-7) and sin committed after baptism through confession. (1John 1:9) They are not remitted by the Eucharist but, rather, a communicant is to go to confession before partaking of His body and blood.

 

[Pegasus]

I am not conversant on all the teachings of the council of Trent.
From the above, I don't know to what they were referring by the words "pains, satisfactions, and other necessities."
Our sins are remitted through baptism. (Acts 2:38; Ro 6:3-7) and sin committed after baptism through confession. (1John 1:9) They are not remitted by the Eucharist but, rather, a communicant is to go to confession before partaking of His body and blood.

Is Orthodox Wiki a valid source?

The Orthodox Church believes the Eucharist to be a sacrifice. As is heard in the Liturgy, "Thine of Thine own we offer to Thee, in all and for all."

1. At the Eucharist, the sacrifice offered is Christ himself, and it is Christ himself who in the Church performs the act of offering: He is both priest and victim.
2. We offer to Thee. The Eucharist is offered to God the Trinity — not just to the Father but also to the Holy Spirit and to Christ Himself. So, what is the sacrifice of the Eucharist? By whom is it offered? and to whom is it offered? In each case the answer is Christ.
3. We offer for all: according to Orthodox theology, the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice, offered on behalf of both the living and the dead

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Eucharist

 

[Jim Parker]

Is Orthodox Wiki a valid source?
The Orthodox Church believes the Eucharist to be a sacrifice. As is heard in the Liturgy, "Thine of Thine own we offer to Thee, in all and for all."
At the Eucharist, the sacrifice offered is Christ himself, and it is Christ himself who in the Church performs the act of offering: He is both priest and victim.

1. We offer to Thee. The Eucharist is offered to God the Trinity — not just to the Father but also to the Holy Spirit and to Christ Himself. So, what is the sacrifice of the Eucharist? By whom is it offered? and to whom is it offered? In each case the answer is Christ.
2. We offer for all: according to Orthodox theology, the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice, offered on behalf of both the living and the dead

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Eucharist

That's accurate however that selection does not relate that the Eucharist is not a new sacrifice of Christ or a re-sacrifice of Christ but, rather a participation in the one and only sacrifice of Christ. The only acceptable sacrifice for sin is the one which Christ offered as both priest and sacrifice. The only sufficient sacrifice which we can offer in atonement for our sins is Christ.

As in the OT sacrificial system, those who offered the sacrifice also ate the sacrifice. Christ has once for all been sacrificed and, In obedience to Jesus' teaching at John 6 and the Synoptic passages relating the "Last Supper", we consume the Body and blood of that sacrifice, which is Christ, the Eucharist, as the OT believers ate the meat of their sacrifices. Christ is the (Passover) lamb of God who has taken away the sins of the world. It is that sacrifice of which we partake in the Eucharist.

That's my understanding.

For a thorough presentation of the Eucharist, I recommend the excellent book; The Eucharist by Alexander Schmemann. (AS well as the companion book on baptism; Of Water and the Spirit.)

 

[flyboy2610]

So far, so good.
You response is exactly what I was expecting.
Cheap grace.

"Cheap" grace??!! How does putting ones full faith and reliance on Christ's sacrificial atonement as the only payment that could ever satisfy the unfathomable penalty required for even the smallest sin make His grace "cheap'?
There is a verse of Scripture that most people simply read right over at 90mph and never stop to consider its implications:
Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
(It's Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I'm only quoting Mark.)
That veil represented the barrier between God and man caused by sin. Only the high priest was allowed to go behind it, and then only once a year carrying the blood of the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. Only the blood of an innocent substitute could pay the cost of even the smallest of sins, and you call this grace "cheap"? It took God 4,000 years to get to the point where he could pull down that barrier, and you call this grace "cheap"? Not only that, but you want to put it back up again in the form of religious rites and rituals which must be done to merit God's forgiveness. May God forgive you.
I don;t think you really know what grace is! Grace is not God saying "Well, you did your best. You prayed, went to church, took the eucharist, did this, did that, etc., etc., etc. Even though you blew it sometimes, I guess I'll let you in anyway."
Grace is God reaching down to sinful man in the person of Jesus Christ and saying "You can do NOTHING to remove the penalty of sin, so I will do it all for you. All you have to do is accept the free gift of salvation I offer through faith in my atoning death on your behalf." And you call that sacrifice "cheap grace"?
You, sir, need to repent.

 

[Jim Parker]

you call that sacrifice "cheap grace"?

No. I don't.
That's not at all what is meant by "cheap grace."
Here's a suggestion: "Find out what "cheap grace" means first and then comment.