Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood

[chestertonrules]

I suppose we can ask "well, why did you confuse us and billions of Christians for 2000 years by saying we must eat your flesh - we took you at your word by faith. Didn't you say "THIS is My Body' at the Last Supper"?

And HE will say: Because it was not given to you to understand.

The disciples indeed asked Him that very question and He told them, that to the "billions" .......masses.......it was not given to understand. It was given to the small group , the remnant, to truly understand. God is always the same. Yesterday, today and forever. He is still not showing the billions the truth. Its ALWAYS to the remnant.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The apostles understood it as literal, and that's what they taught their successors:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

 

[Cornelius]

I suppose we can ask "well, why did you confuse us and billions of Christians for 2000 years by saying we must eat your flesh - we took you at your word by faith. Didn't you say "THIS is My Body' at the Last Supper"?

And HE will say: Because it was not given to you to understand.

The disciples indeed asked Him that very question and He told them, that to the "billions" .......masses.......it was not given to understand. It was given to the small group , the remnant, to truly understand. God is always the same. Yesterday, today and forever. He is still not showing the billions the truth. Its ALWAYS to the remnant.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The apostles understood it as literal, and that's what they taught their successors:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

Sorry, but the apostles never did.

As for your quotations, I care not for things written by your denomination.They have no value.

 

[chestertonrules]

[ ).

Sorry, but the apostles never did.

As for your quotations, I care not for things written by your denomination.They have no value.[/quote]


Ignatius was eaten by lions for his faith. He was a loyal follower of Jesus. Justin Martyr was beheaded.

I trust their sincerity.

If you can provide writing from a single Christian in the first 1000 years of Christianity who denied the real presence of the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist, please do so.

("Acta SS.", April, II, 104-19; Otto, "Corpus Apologetarum", III, Jena, 1879, 266-78; P.G., VI, 1565-72). The examination ends as follows:

"The Prefect Rusticus says: Approach and sacrifice, all of you, to the gods. Justin says: No one in his right mind gives up piety for impiety. The Prefect Rusticus says: If you do not obey, you will be tortured without mercy. Justin replies: That is our desire, to be tortured for Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and so to be saved, for that will give us salvation and firm confidence at the more terrible universal tribunal of Our Lord and Saviour. And all the martyrs said: Do as you wish; for we are Christians, and we do not sacrifice to idols. The Prefect Rusticus read the sentence: Those who do not wish to sacrifice to the gods and to obey the emperor will be scourged and beheaded according to the laws. The holy martyrs glorifying God betook themselves to the customary place, where they were beheaded and consummated their martyrdom confessing their Saviour."

 

[Cornelius]

A 2000 year old mistake is still a mistake 2000 years later.

 

[chestertonrules]

A 2000 year old mistake is still a mistake 2000 years later.

What makes you think you know more than those who learned from the apostles?


The majority of Christians in the world believe in the real presence just as it was taught by the apostles.

 

[francisdesales]

I suppose we can ask "well, why did you confuse us and billions of Christians for 2000 years by saying we must eat your flesh - we took you at your word by faith. Didn't you say "THIS is My Body' at the Last Supper"?

And HE will say: Because it was not given to you to understand.

Who are you to make such comments for the Christ??? Maybe He will ask you whether you can read or not??? :bigfrown

Christianity is not about secret, mystical teachings, Mr. Gnostic. They are open to anyone who opens their hearts to God and seeks Him out. Billions of people open their hearts to God and see the literal meaning of Christ's words - which DO NOT say 'eat my words'. Such teachings of "secret" understandings lead to a spiritual ONLY Christ.

The disciples indeed asked Him that very question and He told them, that to the "billions" .......masses.......it was not given to understand.

Spoken like a true gnostic, a self-proclaimed "perfect". Jesus didn't "correct" any understanding in John 6 - He AMPLIFIED it, saying "truly, truly". You are blocking the Word of God to hold up your false ideology. The flesh cannot understand this - yes, the human mind thinking rationally will not understand that God can give Himself to us in the form of bread and call it His flesh.

It was given to the small group , the remnant, to truly understand.

Where is your Scriptures that state that Jesus was speaking in parable in John 6? Furthermore, if you knew something about ancient Christianity (which you have proven you know very little), that same "small group" did NOT teach your version of the Eucharist. They specifically FOUGHT against your understanding of how the Gospel is spread in the second century...

THEY ALSO amplify the teaching of the Eucharist and practice it themselves. Thus, your theory is simply wrong.

God is always the same. Yesterday, today and forever. He is still not showing the billions the truth. Its ALWAYS to the remnant.

He shows the truth to those who seek it. Many do not seek it. Many seek THEIR version of the truth, after deciding that only they can truly present the "true church" to the world.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[/quote]

You are still confused. Matthew 13 are parables that author refers to. Not everything from His mouth.

Is the commandment to love also a parable??? Context, my friend. Very important. Otherwise, we can dismiss every literal word in the Bible and call it a parable...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

A 2000 year old mistake is still a mistake 2000 years later.

Ah, you DO NOT believe that Jesus is God, do you.

That is the issue at hand here... All that stuff about the Spirit protecting His Church from error was false, because Jesus did not have it in His power to protect anything after His death. That is what you are saying.

When the Church teaches something for 2000 years as absolute dogma, you either believe it - because God has promised to protect His Church - or you doubt that Jesus was God and that God never made that promise.

That's the crux of the matter here. Lack of belief in the Christ's promise.

 

[Cornelius]

Who are you to make such comments for the Christ???

Of course I can say this, because He has already said that ! :yes

 

[Cornelius]

Ah, you DO NOT believe that Jesus is God, do you.

.

LOL

 

[Cornelius]

A 2000 year old mistake is still a mistake 2000 years later.

Ah, you DO NOT believe that Jesus is God, do you.

That is the issue at hand here... All that stuff about the Spirit protecting His Church from error was false, because Jesus did not have it in His power to protect anything after His death. That is what you are saying.

When the Church teaches something for 2000 years as absolute dogma, you either believe it - because God has promised to protect His Church - or you doubt that Jesus was God and that God never made that promise.

That's the crux of the matter here. Lack of belief in the Christ's promise.

I have no interest in what the "church" teaches. You know that by now. The church is apostate these days and cannot be trusted.

Our only security is learning from the Holy Spirit , through the Word.

 

[Cornelius]

Where is your Scriptures that state that Jesus was speaking in parable in John 6?

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

 

[Cornelius]

Christianity is not about secret, mystical teachings, Mr. Gnostic. They are open to anyone who opens their hearts to God and seeks Him out.

That is right, It starts out as hidden manna, and then IF we seek God , He reveals it.

God indeed hides truth in a parable :Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

And then we the kings, get to search it out. Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

God indeed hides the truth from some :Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
So to them it is indeed hidden.

C

 

[Joe67]

I will tell you something else. There are also VERY few protestants who truly understand the meaning of "eating the Word of God and drinking the blood" They get the "in my memory" bit, but fail to understand just exactly how the Word brings life into their mortal bodies. How exactly the eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood brings eternal life.

Cornelius,

Rom 6:12-15
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. KJV

Rom 8:9-13
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. KJV

Phil 1:20-21
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. KJV

Your brother in the Lord Jesus,
Joe

 

[chestertonrules]

A 2000 year old mistake is still a mistake 2000 years later.

What makes you think you know more than those who learned from the apostles?


The majority of Christians in the world believe in the real presence just as it was taught by the apostles.

Why should we follow your personal interpretation?

 

[Cornelius]

A 2000 year old mistake is still a mistake 2000 years later.

What makes you think you know more than those who learned from the apostles?


The majority of Christians in the world believe in the real presence just as it was taught by the apostles.

Why should we follow your personal interpretation?

They did not learn that from the apostles or else they would not have been mistaken. The apostles did not commit this error .

Plus, anyone can know exactly what the apostles know, if they read the Bible. Its when you move outside "Scripture only" that you run into error, as we can clearly see here .

 

[Cornelius]

I will tell you something else. There are also VERY few protestants who truly understand the meaning of "eating the Word of God and drinking the blood" They get the "in my memory" bit, but fail to understand just exactly how the Word brings life into their mortal bodies. How exactly the eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood brings eternal life.

Cornelius,

Rom 6:12-15
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. KJV

Rom 8:9-13
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. KJV

Phil 1:20-21
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. KJV

Your brother in the Lord Jesus,
Joe

Yes brother. The Word is also a sword. It is double edged (one side is for us, the other for the enemy)
When the Word puts our old man to death, it will also bring eternal life to us. As we eat it, it enters our spirit and mind (heart) and in that way, God makes His home there. The Word becomes flesh again IN us and THROUGH us. That is why we are called the "sperma" of God or God's seed. We go into the world as the Word and make disciples of others when they in turn eat the Word that comes through us to them.

So in the Kingdom of God, children of God are made , when people "hear" the Word ( those who have ears to hear) This too is the same way that faith comes...faith comes by hearing......and hearing........comes by the Word of God. So we first have to hear (understand).......then faith comes.

The Word is likened unto the flesh of Jesus, and inside "flesh" we find blood. The Bible also says that the life is in the blood (Leviticus) so as we consume the flesh, we receive the blood (life eternal) We are changed by the renewing of our minds. The Word causes us to overcome and its in the overcoming that life eternal enters into us.

The Word in us = life eternal. That is why "God lives in us". He lives in us, through His Word, because the Word = God (John1 :1) So when we share the bread and the wine we do two things: We first remember Jesus and His sacrifice and secondly it represents us partaking of the Manna from heaven. His body, His flesh and blood, that brings life eternal as it enters into us and feeds our spiritual man.

 

[chestertonrules]

They did not learn that from the apostles or else they would not have been mistaken. The apostles did not commit this error .

Plus, anyone can know exactly what the apostles know, if they read the Bible. Its when you move outside "Scripture only" that you run into error, as we can clearly see here .

Yes they did. Ignatius knew the apostle John. Clement knew both Peter and Paul.

Do you think Christianity disappeared for 1500 years after the apostles died? Do you think they failed to pass on the gospel to their successors?

The bible is clear. You seem unable to accept the words, however.

John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

 

[Cornelius]

Yes His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink because it is real food and drink to our spiritual man.

The rest of me is going to have some lamb shank and broccoli tonight , I have been feeding my spiritual man the flesh and blood of Jesus all through the day, and will give him some more to eat later again.

mmmmmm I might even have a glass of red tonight with my meal, seeing that the neigbors are coming over to feed their natural man with me as well. I am always trying to feed their spiritual man at the same time too. :yes

C

 

[chestertonrules]

Yes His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink because it is real food and drink to our spiritual man.


C

That's not what the bible says.

My flesh is REAL food. The Greek word means ACTUAL food. Believe Jesus. If the Word can become flesh, so can the bread.

Martin Luther understood this Truth quite well:

"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.â€

–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

 

[francisdesales]

Where is your Scriptures that state that Jesus was speaking in parable in John 6?

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Nothing to do with John 6. Already addresssed that, if you are reading...

John 6 is not parable. When Jesus speaks in parable, He clarifies, as in the "leaven of the Pharisees" is not bread, as per the Apostles' opinions.

You are letting your personal opinions block the Work of the Spirit, my friend. Let go and believe and all will become clearer.