Elder lead

[cj]

If you take that argument to its conclusion, then we shouldn't need any form of church whatsoever.

You just don't get it Free;..... we don't "need" a form of church,...... we are the church.

The above Scriptures I gave refute this argument.

Tell me Free,..... the Spirit who dwells in you, is it not the very same Spirit that Jesus had in Him?

(Actually, the Spirit in us is even more, for the Spirit today has our Lord's human experience, something that the Spirit did not have prior to His resurrection and ascension.)

And,... did Jesus "need" a pastor to lead Him, or was this Spirit enough?



There is just one key phrase in Paul's words that tell us God's entire view of this matter........ "for the building of the body of Christ,..."

This is why there are varying talented saints within the body,... for the building of the body.


So, since this is (or should be) as clear as day, tell me,...... thus far how well has the system of Christianity done with regards to building the body of Christ?

Are we today more one than ever before?

Are we like a terrible army that causes terror in the hearts of men?

Are we lovers, even unto death, of our neighbor?


See, its real easy to speak,.... just not so easy to speak the truth.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

This is the church, as declared by its Head;


"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me.

Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens; for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt has become tasteless, with what shall it be salted? It is no longer good for anything except to be cast out and trampled underfoot by men.

You are the light of the world. It is impossible for a city situated upon a mountain to be hidden.

Nor do men light a lamp and place it under the bushel, but on the lampstand; and it shines to all who are in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in the heavens.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all come to pass.

Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment.'' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.

Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there you remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and first go and be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Be well disposed quickly toward your opponent at law, while you are with him on the way, lest the opponent deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you pay the last quadrans.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery.'' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So if your right eye stumbles you, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. And if your right hand stumbles you, cut it off and cast it from you, for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than for your whole body to pass away into Gehenna.

And it was said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce. But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries her who has been divorced commits adultery.

Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not break an oath, but you shall render to the Lord your oaths.'' But I tell you not to swear at all; neither by heaven, because it is the throne of God; Nor by the earth, because it is the footstool of His feet; nor unto Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King; Neither shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no; for anything more than these is of the evil one.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'' But I tell you not to resist him who is evil; rather whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And to him who wishes to sue you and take your tunic, yield to him your cloak also;

And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. To him who asks of you, give; and from him who wants to borrow from you, do not turn away.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'' But I say to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,

So that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what better thing are you doing? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."




Did anyone notice whether or not Jesus, our Head, our King, our Lord, the Living God, mentioned anything about priests and pastors, deacons and elders?


No right,.... He just mentioned some very specific kinds of living and being.



This is what this same One had to say about the many members of His body;

John 20:29

"Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."


The church is simply the corporate expression of those blessed among mankind.


Jesus, the perfect Teacher, required death so that He might be able to enter into us as life.

This is the pattern that has been set for men who desire to be elders.

The more you die the more living you become.

And the more living you become the more life you can impart to others.

"I must decrease so that He may increase." This is God's principle of eldership.


Show me an old man in a congregation who does not speak much but listens well and who is always among the saints, and I will show you a true elder of the church of God.

Moses most effective words were those he spoke to God on behalf of the Israelites. His words stopped God's hand and saved many lives.


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

You just don't get it Free;..... we don't "need" a form of church,...... we are the church.

I get it just fine. Perhaps I'll make it clearer for you: according to Henry's argument, we shouldn't need house "churches" or any sort of gathering together of believers.

(Actually, the Spirit in us is even more, for the Spirit today has our Lord's human experience, something that the Spirit did not have prior to His resurrection and ascension.)

So what you're implying is that God learned something through human experience that he could not have otherwise known.

And,... did Jesus "need" a pastor to lead Him, or was this Spirit enough?

Irrelevant. You seem to be implying that all we need is the Holy Spirit, but clearly this is absurd and unbiblical.

There is just one key phrase in Paul's words that tell us God's entire view of this matter........ "for the building of the body of Christ,..."

This is why there are varying talented saints within the body,... for the building of the body.

My point exactly. Did you miss the part where this includes apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers?

Are we today more one than ever before?

Are we like a terrible army that causes terror in the hearts of men?

Are we lovers, even unto death, of our neighbor?

Again, irrelevant. What's funny here is that you want to blame the "church" structure for these issues but at the same time are arguing that all we need is the Holy Spirit. It is precisely the latter which has lead to division in the church, each founder claiming to be lead by the Spirit.

 

[cj]

I get it just fine. Perhaps I'll make it clearer for you: according to Henry's argument, we shouldn't need house "churches" or any sort of gathering together of believers.

I've said before to Henry that his point's are contradictory; I believe that Henry is simply attempting to replace religion with religion.

But my point was not concerning our "need", for we certainly need the fellowship found in the gathering of saints.

My point concerned the matter of "forms" and whether we have a need of them.

And your words certainly expose you as missing this..... forms are not what the apostles presented us with, patterns are.

So what you're implying is that God learned something through human experience that he could not have otherwise known.

Let scripture say it better.....

John 7:39, "But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."

1 Corinthians 15:45, "So also it is written, "The first man, Adam,.... became.... a living soul''; the last Adam.... became.... a life-giving Spirit."

See Free,... its not me "implying" anything, its God declaring it.

Irrelevant. You seem to be implying that all we need is the Holy Spirit, but clearly this is absurd and unbiblical.

"Clearly" huh..... an "unbiblical"?

So, the pastor/teachers you say are "biblical"...... when you get to the bottom of the matter just what is it that makes them what they are?

Is it who they are in their fesh or is it who they are in...... the Spirit?


Free...... this is the bottomline...... all we need is the Spirit of God.


God declared this to us when He used a donkey to deliver a message, He showed men that the vessel was not important.

Don't look at the vessel Free, look at the content in the vessel.

My point exactly. Did you miss the part where this includes apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers?

I didn't,........ but I most certainly put "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers" under the subjection of "for the building of the body of Christ,..."

To be clear about apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers Free, you need to first be clear about just what "for the building of the body of Christ,..." means.

Again, irrelevant. What's funny here is that you want to blame the "church" structure for these issues but at the same time are arguing that all we need is the Holy Spirit. It is precisely the latter which has lead to division in the church, each founder claiming to be lead by the Spirit.

Actually no.

First, I don't blame a "structure" for anything, I would be foolish to do so.

I blame what the scriptures tells us is to blame...... Satan.

And "arguing" that all we need is the Holy Spirit is not what has lead to division within the church.

What has lead to division is the motive in which this argument is made.

Motive is what divides.

How could you saying we need the Holy Spirit only, and me saying the same thing, and another saying the same thing divide us?

No Free,...... what we say is not what divides,.... why we say it is.


In love,
cj

 

[Henry]

Free

You are not understanding my argument at all, and are too quick to defend the church system. I have never said that believers are not to gather, I think that we should gather more often. The NT church had fellowship every day.

Luke 22:24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest.

25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.

26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
The problem is that church was never meant to be a corpoatation of any sort, if you want to talk forms then certainly but Jesus own words we are not mean to have a form as the world would have. We are all to be as brothers and sisters, we are family. The form that we need to take on is that of a family, quite simple.
And haven’t you ever paid attention to the fact that the word pastor is used once and in the last part of that list. How that one becomes the LEADER is not in the bible, and also why it is when the leaders where addressed they were called the ELDERS ie:plural?
CJ
Sorry you feel that I am trying to replace religion with religion. Like it or not we all practice religion, though it may be defined in so many ways. Never the less my main objective is to do it the way the bible teaches, nothing more or less.
However, in my thinking the church is a family…brothers and sisters, and being the church is what counts in the end. There is no clergy or laity, just US and we are all to be about the business of our Father.
And in the work, the Holy Spirit is the boss and he can and does use anyone he sees fit to his use, which in the end is to reveal Jesus to the world.

 

[Free]

See Free,... its not me "implying" anything, its God declaring it.

Except that the verses you give have nothing to do with what I stated.

Henry,

I fully understand your argument. I just think that you haven't brought your argument to its logical conclusions.

 

[cj]

Except that the verses you give have nothing to do with what I stated.

Now you seem to be heading down the path of dishonesty Free....


But lets go over it again,

I said,

"(Actually, the Spirit in us is even more, for the Spirit today has our Lord's human experience, something that the Spirit did not have prior to His resurrection and ascension.)"

You replied,

"So what you're implying is that God learned something through human experience that he could not have otherwise known."

To which I simply present you with scriptures that clearly state that God became something that previously He was not.


So, I tell you what, since the verse I presented seem to clearly indicate that some sort of addition to God took place, which was my point, yet you say these verses have nothing to do with my point, why don't you tell us what these verses have to do with.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

CJ
Sorry you feel that I am trying to replace religion with religion. Like it or not we all practice religion, though it may be defined in so many ways.

Well, let me be more clear, by religion I meant the keeping of institutionalized man-made forms and traditions, that come out of fallen human concepts.

Sometimes when I read your posts I get the sense that you are simply attempting to bring in yet one more type of religious behavior, according to my definition above.

Never the less my main objective is to do it the way the bible teaches, nothing more or less.

Then first you need to be absolutely clear about what the bible teaches,.... are you?

However, in my thinking the church is a family…brothers and sisters, and being the church is what counts in the end.

Can you explain what you mean by this.

There is no clergy or laity, just US and we are all to be about the business of our Father.

Wonderful,.... but in the Father's view there is only an "US" when He looks at the many believers.

Tell me, what do you see this "US" as?

Also, what do you think the business of the Father is?

And in the work, the Holy Spirit is the boss and he can and does use anyone he sees fit to his use, which in the end is to reveal Jesus to the world.

Actually, the Spirit's goal is far more than that.

Which, is why I asked the question, are you clear about what the bible says?


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

Except that the verses you give have nothing to do with what I stated.

Now you seem to be heading down the path of dishonesty Free....


But lets go over it again,

I said,

"(Actually, the Spirit in us is even more, for the Spirit today has our Lord's human experience, something that the Spirit did not have prior to His resurrection and ascension.)"

You replied,

"So what you're implying is that God learned something through human experience that he could not have otherwise known."

To which I simply present you with scriptures that clearly state that God became something that previously He was not.


So, I tell you what, since the verse I presented seem to clearly indicate that some sort of addition to God took place, which was my point, yet you say these verses have nothing to do with my point, why don't you tell us what these verses have to do with.


In love,
cj

I have said nothing dishonestly. You initially stated: "(Actually, the Spirit in us is even more, for the Spirit today has our Lord's human experience, something that the Spirit did not have prior to His resurrection and ascension.)"

This appears to question God's omniscience, which was my point. The verses you provided to back up your initial statement only speak of Christ's becoming flesh, not that God learned something new. That "the Spirit in us is even more" is to imply that God has potentiality. But if he has potential he is not actual and could not therefore be God. So my point still stands.

However, now that you have bolded portions of these verses, I think I see what you are getting at, and it is error. You seem to be implying that Jesus became the Holy Spirit after his resurrection and ascension. But, you couldn't be, that is so obviously wrong.

 

[cj]

This appears to question God's omniscience, which was my point.

"Appears to be"...... but does not.

The verses you provided to back up your initial statement only speak of Christ's becoming flesh, not that God learned something new. That "the Spirit in us is even more" is to imply that God has potentiality. But if he has potential he is not actual and could not therefore be God. So my point still stands.

See Free, you never stated anything about the matter of God's omniscience, so how could I have known it was your point?

However, now that you have bolded portions of these verses, I think I see what you are getting at, and it is error. You seem to be implying that Jesus became the Holy Spirit after his resurrection and ascension. But, you couldn't be, that is so obviously wrong.

Is it?

Let's see.

God is all knowing, this scripture tells us and so we believe it.

Yet, is "all knowing" the same as experiencing?

Doesn't God know who will be saved, and yet, in His wisdom has He not seen fit to have the salvation of those who would believe be worked out in a process of time?

Why?

And consider the Ark, was the Ark not a testimony of God's very presence; yet, to the ark was added a budding branch, the commandments tablets, and a golden pot containing manna.

Why?

And the first Passover lamb, was it not prepared, cooked and eaten after it was killed?

How does this relate to the true Passover Lamb? When was this Lamb prepared, cooked, and eaten?

Jesus tells us that everything in scripture has divine meaning, lets not forget than.


In the NT we see where God joins Himself to men, starting with His incarnation through the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

What is the key to this joining? Is it Mary? No,... it is the spirit of man. God joins Himself to man in spirit.

God dwells, and is one with man in man's regenerated spirit. This scripture tells us.

But how could a righteous and holy God do this, how could He join Himself to men?

Prior to Jesus' death on the cross there was a curtain between God and men, after His death there was no longer this curtain. What changed?


And about the Holy Spirit and Jesus becoming the Holy Spirit,.... Never said He did.

But the Holy Spirit being the flowing of God, the action and activity of God, must contain the element of the now crucified Christ with His flowing/action/activity. And prior to the actual experience of Christ on the cross, this element could not have been there.

In theory yes, but experientially, no.

And this is why the Lord said the the Spirit was "not yet", meaning the Spirit with the element of Christ's death.


Free, God needed a way to join Himself to men, as this is His eternal desire, it is how He has chosen to "expand" Himself in His creation.

You see the man Jesus you see God Himself. Likewise, one day when I look at you I will see God.

Not the Godhead, but God in nature and in life. I will see Free, but the Free I see will be God in nature and in life.

And how God accomplishes this in men is through the work of the Holy Spirit with the added element of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.


This matter tha we are discussing is one of the deepest matters revealed in the bible, and it is very hard to do it justice here.

On the one hand we know God knows everything and needs nothing, but on the other hand we also know that God has chosen to add Himself to man and thus chosen to need man.

Why God chose to do this? All the scripture says is that God desire's a habitation on earth and has chosen man for this habitation because of His great love.



Below are some notes that I thought might interest you. Do you realize that this is the second time we have had this discussion?


In the Holy of Holies was the ark of the testimony, in which were the golden pot containing the hidden manna; Aaron's budding rod; and the tablets of the covenant. The hidden manna in the golden pot signifies our experience of Christ as our life supply in the deepest way, an experience much deeper than that signified by the showbread table in the Holy Place. The budding rod signifies our experience of Christ in His resurrection as our acceptance by God for authority in the God-given ministry. This is deeper than the experience of Christ as the incense for our acceptance by God. The tablets of the covenant, which are the tablets of the ten commandments, signify our experience of Christ as the enlightening inner law, which regulates us according to God's divine nature. This is deeper than the experience of Christ as the shining lampstand in the Holy Place. All these deepest experiences of Christ take place in our spirit, signified by the Holy of Holies.


In love,
cj

 

[Henry]

cj

Thank you for responding to me I will try my best to cleary reply to you.

Well, let me be more clear, by religion I meant the keeping of institutionalized man-made forms and traditions, that come out of fallen human concepts.

Sometimes when I read your posts I get the sense that you are simply attempting to bring in yet one more type of religious behavior, according to my definition above.

I will answer that last part first by saying what we are doing in the HC movement is seeking a return to the values and practices of the early church. Before the institution came along, and nothing more or less then that. It is our opinion that is what God intended then and now for the church, a simple way of life and not an orgnized institution, a family and not a corporation.

Ok now the first part of your comment I feel I need to go to the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. 2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and
hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Ok, a tradition can be in the form of many things, we know that Jesus rebuked the leaders for letting their traditions make void the word of God. And that is a terrible thing to be sure...however the word here for teaching is also translated as tradition in some translations and basically means the same thing.

Paul passed on certain traditions, which he intended them to continue to follow. So there are traditions which make void the word and those which are in line with the word.

You know getting up to go to work each day is a tradition. Traditions are not good nor bad, it is weather they are in line with the word or they make void the word that is the true concern.

So, I agree with what you said about human traditions that come out fallen human concepts, and that my friend is why we are seeking ever so diligent to learn and emulate the patterns, values and practices of the church in the bible.

Then first you need to be absolutely clear about what the bible teaches,.... are you?

This comes up often, and I am not sure why. As if becuase I think the bible teaches we should meet in homes and all that. That somehow that makes the claim I know the bible completely and have a full understanding of Gods word. I find this to be a very poor debating tool, mean only to put me on the defensive.

Never the less the answer is NO I do not understand the teaching of the bible 100% totally, for example I am strugleing with the Christains role in politics right now.

BUT... I do understand other things, and more importantly I can understand what is not there. You see you can not find the Church building or the single Pastor who lead it, those things are not there. So what am I to do, but look and see what is there.

No scholar disagrees that the early church met in homes, and eat together and all that. The question at hand is "Was that just the baby church and now we've grown up or "Is that the pattern which God wants us to follow" and since that is the only one I find in the word of God I choice the latter.

Can you explain what you mean by this.

Speaking of us all being brothers and sisters in the family of God. Sure I will try to explain this....

We believe that the church is a family, not an institution or corporation as I have made very clear I think by now. God is the Father of this family, and we are all brothers and sisters.

Now, Jesus said we are not call each other Rabbi or teacher or what ever, but BROTHER, he was going against the grain of the traditions and saying "Look forget all that stuff, love and know each other as brothers" Keeping in mind that he also reminded that he is the only teacher and that God is the father of us all.

And there are other places in the text that refere to the household of God. Now in the greek the word for family meant the household, not the father, mother kid family. But the entirety of everyone who was a member in any way of that house hold.

And so we are adopted into the house hold of God. And so we are to be a family, and as in a family there are those who are wise and we follow their lead for that. And there may be times of rebuke, but all in all we are yet brothers, while perhaps more mature never above in status in the eyes of God.

Wonderful,.... but in the Father's view there is only an "US" when He looks at the many believers.

Tell me, what do you see this "US" as?

Also, what do you think the business of the Father is?
[/q uote]

Amen and amen !! the fathers only sees US, actually he sees Jesus in us. But never the less AMEN ! The whole clergy thing is man made, it makes two classes of believers and this is contrary to Jesus teachings about all of us being brothers.

Here my friend is case where man made traditions have made a mess and voided Gods word.

The US is every single believer in the world, dead or alive, no matter his or her denomination or not, and location. As my 3 year friend says "the church is all the peoples that loves Jesus" that is the US I speak of. You are my dear brother (or sister?)

Oh, the business of God. Perhaps that was not the right term to use, what I am refering to the word of Jesus in Mat 25 where he told us to feed the hungry and so on, and how it is that we are show love, and so on. The business of God is loving him, loving each other, and the world as well, by doing as he said we aught.

And I do not mean giving some money to a group, but actually doing it.

Some young guys I know, have filled three trailor homes with food and have been going out to the apartments near then giving it to poor families. They do this all on their own, with not official church backing or supporting them. They do the work and foot the bill, and they are great examples.

Too many christians think that giving to a ministry, which typically uses very little of the money for the work, is the same as DOING it. Not at all.....

[quote:d02b7]Actually, the Spirit's goal is far more than that.

Which, is why I asked the question, are you clear about what the bible says?

[/quote:d02b7]

I am clear about what I know, and not about what I do not know. And I am going to have to obey and follow what I do know to be true, and as I grow and mature I will continue to follow what I am learning each and every day.

But as I said I am very clear about what is not there.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE 100% ?????

Listen the fact is that the bible talks about Elders who were leaders and I am not sure why that is a problem, and yet it is.

Free

You do not understand what I am saying at all, the conclusion that you are ariving at is one based on your misunderstanding and not understanding of what I am saying.