Elohiym in Gen 1:1 is not plural of persons

[follower of Christ]

I do not to get this debate started again so I am done. If someone wishes to continue the discussion on the trinity in a one on one I will consider it.

Isnt a one on one a 'debate' in a more formal setting, friend ?

What I cant figure out with some is that they come into a DISCUSSION forum where opposing views ARE permitted, so they have to know they WILL be opposed by someone, yet they dont want to 'debate'.
What is your definition of 'debate' as opposed to 'discussion' ?
In a 'discussion' as you define it, is the other person supposed to just sit there and agree with you ?

 

[seekandlisten]

I do not to get this debate started again so I am done. If someone wishes to continue the discussion on the trinity in a one on one I will consider it.

Isnt a one on one a 'debate' in a more formal setting, friend ?

What I cant figure out with some is that they come into a DISCUSSION forum where opposing views ARE permitted, so they have to know they WILL be opposed by someone, yet they dont want to 'debate'.
What is your definition of 'debate' as opposed to 'discussion' ?
In a 'discussion' as you define it, is the other person supposed to just sit there and agree with you ?

Present me with a discussion? You are quick to judge and write me off as a non believer based on some unknown criteria you have. When I don't understand a point, example; this sign Mark spoke of and the sign of Jonah, you just pass it off as of course I don't understand because I'm a unbeliever. Where's the teaching here? In this discussion, when you just point out faults without providing me with anything useful,what are you doing? Are we discussing or judging? When I engage in a discussions of differing views if someone presents something that has a point I will keep that point and 'test' it so to speak. If I won't hear anyone else's point of view how can I learn?

 

[follower of Christ]

Present me with a discussion?

Not sure what youre asking.

You are quick to judge and write me off as a non believer based on some unknown criteria you have.

I have not made any claims as to YOUR status, friend....lay off the martyr complex for a while here

When I don't understand a point, example; this sign Mark spoke of and the sign of Jonah, you just pass it off as of course I don't understand because I'm a unbeliever. Where's the teaching here?

So if I dont come off as some mountaintop guru, then Im not 'teaching' anything ?
Arent we trying to 'teach' you about what the scripture says about God ?

I you just point out faults without providing me with anything useful what are you doing? Are we discussing or judging? When I engage in a discussions of differing views if someone presents something that has a point I will keep that point and 'test' it so to speak. If I won't hear anyone else's point of view how can I learn?

Alright...we're done here.

Get back to the topic please.
This is going nowhere and Im not interested in spending another day with you, each of us just repeating endlessly what we think the other person is doing to us.

Present your case about the thread topic and I'll offer my rebuttal.

 

[seekandlisten]

When I don't understand a point, example; this sign Mark spoke of and the sign of Jonah, you just pass it off as of course I don't understand because I'm a unbeliever. Where's the teaching here?

So if I dont come off as some mountaintop guru, then Im not 'teaching' anything ?
Arent we trying to 'teach' you about what the scripture says about God ?

I obviously missed the point of what Mark was saying and what the 'sign of Jonah means so why not explain? The way your response came back at me appears as though obviously if I didn't know what you were talking about that I didn't know anything about anything else. Did you teach me anything? Am I just supposed to venture off and try and figure out what you meant? Is this teaching?

 

[follower of Christ]

I obviously missed the point of what Mark was saying and what the 'sign of Jonah means so why not explain?

ok then...
You said...

seekandlisten wrote:In all actuallity there are two sides to the Trinity argument. Those that are for and those that are against. There is evidence available for both sides and neither side can be 'proven'.

In Mark there is an argument AGAINST a sign being given to that generation...in Matthew there is an argument FOR a sign being given to that generation.
So which is it ? Can we say that NO sign was to be given because Mark seems to say just that when we KNOW that the sign of Jonah WAS given because the overwhelming evidence shows just that ?

Same here.
The Trinity is supported in scripture in passages just as John 1 that proves conclusively that Jesus is the Word and that the Word IS God....other passages that SEEM to conflict dont nullify John 1 or the others any more than Marks saying that no sign would be given nullifies that the sign of Jonah was given to that generation.
These seemingly 'conflicting' passages MUST BE taken in light of these others that are VERY plainly showing that Jesus IS God.

The way your response came back at me appears as though obviously if I didn't know what you were talking about that I didn't know anything about anything else. Did you teach me anything?

Guy, youve already shown that we're wasting our time trying to 'teach' you anything here.
Do you actually think me fool enough to spend my day 'teaching' you when I already know you dont want to be taught rather than spending my day with my wife and grandchild ?

Am I just supposed to venture off and try and figure out what you meant? Is this teaching?

When a student WANTS to learn they find a way to figure it out.

.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't believe it is God who blinds.

God can and does blind...

The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

In fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah...

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

And, of course, satan blinds as well...

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[follower of Christ]

Somehow I missed this...

seekandlisten wrote:I don't believe it is God who blinds.

Really ?

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

and...


and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."
(1 Kings 22:20-23 ESV)

One more reason we need to lay aside these mountaintop gurus and turn to GOD's truth...

 

[toddm]

Somehow I missed this...

seekandlisten wrote:I don't believe it is God who blinds.

Really ?
[quote:2clo7vc3]The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

and...


and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."
(1 Kings 22:20-23 ESV)

One more reason we need to lay aside these mountaintop gurus and turn to GOD's truth...
[/quote:2clo7vc3]
Yep!

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't believe it is God who blinds.

God can and does blind...

The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

In fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah...

[quote="John 12:40":3a5rkung] He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

And, of course, satan blinds as well...

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[/quote:3a5rkung]
Very good evidence that God DOES blind, G.
it is something ALL of us should be very fearful of if we dont take His truth very seriously.
If we want a lie, He's more than capable of giving us what we want.

.

 

[toddm]

Just a side note...God, in His sovereignty, is the One that gives Satan permission to blind. But I do believe that God is fully within His right to actively blind people as well.

 

[follower of Christ]

Just a side note...God, in His sovereignty, is the One that gives Satan permission to blind. But I do believe that God is fully within His right to actively blind people as well.

agreed on both points, Todd.

 

[glorydaz]

Just a side note...God, in His sovereignty, is the One that gives Satan permission to blind. But I do believe that God is fully within His right to actively blind people as well.

agreed on both points, Todd.

Absolutely. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

 

[wavy]

And, quite frankly, it is something a nonbeliever could very well comprehend. :gah

Why, thanks.

On the one hand, we cannot say if they the ancient Hebrews were more carnal than any group of people since. I would think that certain groups of people throughout history have been at least as carnal. On the other hand, they had been polytheistic and seemed to struggle with that at times in the OT. God may very well have wanted to get across to them that there was only one God before introducing the concept of the Trinity as that could have caused confusion. Of course, that is not to say there are no hints of the triune nature of God in the OT.

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying the Hebrews were stupid people? Outright rebellion is one thing; confusion is another. If they still deviated from the simple command to acknowledge Yahweh alone as the only god, it would make no difference if the Trinity were revealed to them and they disobeyed. They'd still be aberrant polytheists at any event.

Also, are you saying the pagans of the Hellenistic-Roman era that converted to Christianity were somehow more 'ready' to accept the Trinity upon conversion than generations of Hebrews who inherited monotheistic Yahwism as their cultural-religious heritage?

Finis,
Eric

 

[follower of Christ]

Also, are you saying the pagans of the Hellenistic-Roman era that converted to Christianity were somehow more 'ready' to accept the Trinity upon conversion than generations of Hebrews who inherited monotheistic Yahwism as their cultural-religious heritage?

How about reading the passage I quoted ;)
WHEN we come to Christ our eyes are open and we CAN see the truth.
The Hebrews refused Gods truth and they refused the Messiah....thus they were blinded to the truth.
It cant be put in any simpler manner for you, Im afraid

 

[Free]

On the one hand, we cannot say if they the ancient Hebrews were more carnal than any group of people since. I would think that certain groups of people throughout history have been at least as carnal. On the other hand, they had been polytheistic and seemed to struggle with that at times in the OT. God may very well have wanted to get across to them that there was only one God before introducing the concept of the Trinity as that could have caused confusion. Of course, that is not to say there are no hints of the triune nature of God in the OT.

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying the Hebrews were stupid people? Outright rebellion is one thing; confusion is another. If they still deviated from the simple command to acknowledge Yahweh alone as the only god, it would make no difference if the Trinity were revealed to them and they disobeyed. They'd still be aberrant polytheists at any event.

Also, are you saying the pagans of the Hellenistic-Roman era that converted to Christianity were somehow more 'ready' to accept the Trinity upon conversion than generations of Hebrews who inherited monotheistic Yahwism as their cultural-religious heritage?

All I'm suggesting is that their polytheistic background may have caused them to confuse the triune nature of God as being polytheistic. It may have taken time to get them away from any form or belief in polytheism so that the revelation of Jesus, as the Son of God and God in human flesh, wouldn't be construed to be some form of polytheism.

Your point about pagan converts may do my point in though. Perhaps the solidified monotheistic belief of the Jews was used to keep in check the polytheism of the pagans, whereas the pagans were more likely to accept the idea of a triune God.

 

[follower of Christ]

and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
(2 Corinthians 3:13-16 EMTV)

Personally I think its just what scripture shows.
If the hardhearted Hebrews minds were veiled, we can rest assured that sinful gentiles are as well.
When one comes to Christ the veil is removed....we begin to be able to read and understand the scripture AS IT is intended to be understood.