Elohiym in Gen 1:1 is not plural of persons

[follower of Christ]

*GETTING BACK ON TOPIC*

So is there anyone here that thinks that Elohim refers to the Trinity in its original context or does it refer to something else?

Myself, I dont think it really matters.
I dont think OT scriptures try to impress the understanding of the Truine God to the Hebrew people as the NT does.
I dont think the Hebrews were even ready for such knowledge....they certainly were carnal enough for other things of God to be more expedient.

 

[wavy]

I dont think the Hebrews were even ready for such knowledge....they certainly were carnal enough for other things of God to be more expedient.

Are you suggesting that the ancient Hebrews were more 'carnal' than any group of people since? I let you cogitate the ludicrousness of that...

Finis,
ELB

 

[follower of Christ]

Are you suggesting that the ancient Hebrews were more 'carnal' than any group of people since? I let you cogitate the ludicrousness of that...

Finis,
ELB

Frankly what Im suggesting is something I dont expect a nonbeliever to accept or comprehend. ;)

That said, however...

Therefore, having such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded.
For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ.
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
(2 Corinthians)

See, friend, *I* accept what scripture shows....even if the unbelieving do not

 

[glorydaz]

*GETTING BACK ON TOPIC*

So is there anyone here that thinks that Elohim refers to the Trinity in its original context or does it refer to something else?

Myself, I dont think it really matters.
I dont think OT scriptures try to impress the understanding of the Truine God to the Hebrew people as the NT does.
I dont think the Hebrews were even ready for such knowledge....they certainly were carnal enough for other things of God to be more expedient.

I agree. Although the work of Jesus was spoken of from Genesis through Revelation, it wasn't until God was manifest in the flesh that God's triune nature needed to be referred to. Until the Holy Spirit was indwelling the believer, man's understanding of God's triune nature was limited.

 

[Free]

Frankly what Im suggesting is something I dont expect a nonbeliever to accept or comprehend. ;)

And, quite frankly, it is something a nonbeliever could very well comprehend. :gah

On the one hand, we cannot say if they the ancient Hebrews were more carnal than any group of people since. I would think that certain groups of people throughout history have been at least as carnal. On the other hand, they had been polytheistic and seemed to struggle with that at times in the OT. God may very well have wanted to get across to them that there was only one God before introducing the concept of the Trinity as that could have caused confusion. Of course, that is not to say there are no hints of the triune nature of God in the OT.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I dont think the Hebrews were even ready for such knowledge....they certainly were carnal enough for other things of God to be more expedient.

Are you suggesting that the ancient Hebrews were more 'carnal' than any group of people since? I let you cogitate the ludicrousness of that...

Finis,
ELB

I find it amazing that the newly converted Pagans to Christianity, would be the ones to teach Orthodox Jews that their God is a Trinity.

 

[Yahoshea]

You haven't kicked me out yet? I am surprised.

 

[JudaicChristian]

You haven't kicked me out yet? I am surprised.

Is it the Christian way to stifle conversations about what is correct doctrine or in scripture?

 

[Yahoshea]

You haven't kicked me out yet? I am surprised.

Is it the Christian way to stifle conversations about what is correct doctrine or in scripture?

seems to work for some.

 

[glorydaz]

You haven't kicked me out yet? I am surprised.

Is it the Christian way to stifle conversations about what is correct doctrine or in scripture?

seems to work for some.

I can understand why you may feel it's stifling conversation, but it's actually correction, and that is not always pleasant to the one being corrected. It needs to be done, though, when someone goes out of the way of what Scripture teaches.

O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[seekandlisten]

In all actuallity there are two sides to the Trinity argument. Those that are for and those that are against. There is evidence available for both sides and neither side can be 'proven'. This argument has been going on since the 2nd century and since neither side has been able to rule out the other I would say it merely comes down to a matter of opinion and personal revelation. The only way one side or the other will be 'proven' is when we stand before God and He reveals the Truth plain and simple. While these debates may be useful in presented 'evidence' from both sides more often then not they end up going around in circles and this person telling that person they are not a 'true' christian by the end. Realistically speaking, until believers can learn to work together for the common good debates and division will continue as it has in the past. Just my 2 cents.

 

[toddm]

In all actuallity there are two sides to the Trinity argument. Those that are for and those that are against. There is evidence available for both sides and neither side can be 'proven'. This argument has been going on since the 2nd century and since neither side has been able to rule out the other I would say it merely comes down to a matter of opinion and personal revelation. The only way one side or the other will be 'proven' is when we stand before God and He reveals the Truth plain and simple. While these debates may be useful in presented 'evidence' from both sides more often then not they end up going around in circles and this person telling that person they are not a 'true' christian by the end. Realistically speaking, until believers can learn to work together for the common good debates and division will continue as it has in the past. Just my 2 cents.

No, the case for the Trinity CAN be proven in Scripture. The Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are all called "God". Jesus' baptism rules out modalism or "Jesus only-ism" and Deuteronomy 6:4 (as well as MANY other Scriptures) rule out polytheism. Trinitarianism is the ONLY valid viewpoint that satisfies all of Scripture.

 

[follower of Christ]

On the one hand, we cannot say if they the ancient Hebrews were more carnal than any group of people since.

We can leave that one to wavy since I never said any such thing. ;)
I said the Hebrew people were carnal and werent ready for that truth or God would have given it to them.

Of course, that is not to say there are no hints of the triune nature of God in the OT.

Its definitely hinted at in the OT in Isaiah.

Just like God going to the gentiles is hinted at in Deuteronomy.
Things were spelled out much clearer in the New Testament.

 

[follower of Christ]

I find it amazing that the newly converted Pagans to Christianity, would be the ones to teach Orthodox Jews that their God is a Trinity.[/color][/size]

Too bad for you that it isnt just the writings of greeks that confirm that the Son is God ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

I can understand why you may feel it's stifling conversation, but it's actually correction, and that is not always pleasant to the one being corrected. It needs to be done, though, when someone goes out of the way of what Scripture teaches.

O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.

Excellent passage, G....shows exactly what I said about the Hebrew people.
They were a hardhearted, obstinate people. That much is fact.

 

[follower of Christ]

In all actuallity there are two sides to the Trinity argument. Those that are for and those that are against. There is evidence available for both sides and neither side can be 'proven'.

No, friend, the bible isnt against itself, but it IS written in such a way that someone LOOKING for contrary data will easily find it and be blinded to truth.
Such as Mark showing that NO sign from heaven would be given to that generation, while Matthew speaking on that very same topic shows that the sign of Jonah would be given.
To the mind LOOKING FOR contradictions they will find them.
For those who WANT the truth we know simply to harmonize the information.

This argument has been going on since the 2nd century and since neither side has been able to rule out the other I would say it merely comes down to a matter of opinion and personal revelation.

ACtually trinity adherents have destroyed the opposition.
But just as I said, the text is written in such a way that if one is LOOKING for a different story in scripture they will find it.
God will blind and delude those who refuse His truth, as He did the Jews and as we see in 2 Thessalonians, and His word is given in such a way as to do just that.
If you want a lie, you'll find it, and very easily.

The only way one side or the other will be 'proven' is when we stand before God and He reveals the Truth plain and simple.

No, its proven here and now for those willing to accept it

While these debates may be useful in presented 'evidence' from both sides more often then not they end up going around in circles and this person telling that person they are not a 'true' christian by the end.

When a person believes in the wrong Christ even tho they have been presented to Him, are they truly born again ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Trinitarianism is the ONLY valid viewpoint that satisfies all of Scripture.

Couldnt have said it any better

 

[seekandlisten]

In all actuallity there are two sides to the Trinity argument. Those that are for and those that are against. There is evidence available for both sides and neither side can be 'proven'.

No, friend, the bible isnt against itself, but it IS written in such a way that someone LOOKING for contrary data will easily find it and be blinded to truth.

Couldn't this be said for the other side as well?

Such as Mark showing that NO sign from heaven would be given to that generation, while Matthew speaking on that very same topic shows that the sign of Jonah would be given.

What does this have to do with what we are talking about?? The 'sign of Jonah' although I'm not sure what your getting at I would think would refer to the 3 days and night and it being symbollic with Christ's resurrection?

To the mind LOOKING FOR contradictions they will find them.
For those who WANT the truth we know simply to harmonize the information.

Harmonize it with what?

This argument has been going on since the 2nd century and since neither side has been able to rule out the other I would say it merely comes down to a matter of opinion and personal revelation.

ACtually trinity adherents have destroyed the opposition.

Where is the evidence of this when there are those that don't believe this or is your 'religion' the only truth. By the way you still haven't answered me to what belief system you adhere to.

But just as I said, the text is written in such a way that if one is LOOKING for a different story in scripture they will find it.

This argument would work for both sides.

God will blind and delude those who refuse His truth, as He did the Jews and as we see in 2 Thessalonians, and His word is given in such a way as to do just that.
If you want a lie, you'll find it, and very easily.

I don't believe it is God who blinds.

[quote="follower of Christ":255sy9oc]

The only way one side or the other will be 'proven' is when we stand before God and He reveals the Truth plain and simple.

No, its proven here and now for those willing to accept it

Or your version of it?

While these debates may be useful in presented 'evidence' from both sides more often then not they end up going around in circles and this person telling that person they are not a 'true' christian by the end.

When a person believes in the wrong Christ even tho they have been presented to Him, are they truly born again ?

[/quote:255sy9oc]

Who decides this?

 

[seekandlisten]

I do not to get this debate started again so I am done. If someone wishes to continue the discussion on the trinity in a one on one I will consider it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Couldn't this be said for the other side as well?

John 1, among others, shows in no uncertain terms that Jesus IS the Word and the Word IS God. No scripture nullifies that...there is only a few passage that NONtrinity types can run to and then IGNORE what John 1 (and others) plainly states.

What does this have to do with what we are talking about?? The 'sign of Jonah' although I'm not sure what your getting at I would think would refer to the 3 days and night and it being symbollic with Christ's resurrection?

Its astounding how a person can use an unrelated fact to simply show a point and you seem entirely unable to figure it out.

Harmonize it with what?

Amazing...

Where is the evidence of this when there are those that don't believe this or is your 'religion' the only truth.

That some reject Gods truth is irrelevant. The Jews HAD His truth and STILL refused to accept it.

By the way you still haven't answered me to what belief system you adhere to.

I didnt realize you asked.
What do you mean 'belief system', gent ?
I think Ive made it very clear that I am a Follower of Jesus Christ here and I adhere to what the bible DOES teach

This argument would work for both sides.

Actually it doesnt.
John 1, among others, shows conclusively that Jesus is the Word and the Word IS God.
NO scripture nullifies that fact.

Who decides this?

The person rejecting Gods truth....its their own choice to make.

.