Elohiym in Gen 1:1 is not plural of persons

[follower of Christ]

Any positive results that come from man are not "fruits".

Absolutely agree.
Ive seen a list of people in my life who basically were given a watered down gospel that sounded good to the ear who came to 'jesus' with a big smile on their faces.
Within a year or two it was easy enough to tell that there was no genuine conversion at all...inside they were as dead as they had been previously.

To deny Jesus is God is error, therefore there can be no "fruits" when coming from that position.

Absolutely.
All teaching this would do is create make-believers....and make US accountable for spreading a false gospel.
I for one refuse to BE one of those false prophets/teachers that is spoken so poorly of in the NT.
I doubt any longstanding member here would want that either.

 

[glorydaz]

Well usually I just get told that I believe in a different God and Jesus or any variation there of that Christians describe people who don't believe what they believe. Sorry if this sounds harsh but such is usually the case.

But is that not true? If Jesus is the God-man than he is a very different Jesus from those who believe he was only a man. If God is triune, is that not a different God from one that is not triune? God is who he revealed himself to be and we need to be sure to do due diligence in finding out exactly who he has revealed himself to be.

How do we do due diligence? I remember something yahoshea said about the different way each of us interpret scripture. How do you know which interpretation is right? I can see yahosea's point. It could be judged by the results of the doctrine. God would not give a doctrine that would hinder his children from becoming what He wants for them.

Line upon line precept upon precept.
If you start the first line based upon a lie, all precepts based upon that lie become a part of the lie.
To deny Jesus is God come in the flesh is the greatest lie of all.
One may as well find a different book to base their doctrine upon, because the Bible is based upon God coming in the flesh and leaving His Spirit to indwell the believer. There will be no fruits of the Spirit unless they're His fruits.

 

[Free]

Well usually I just get told that I believe in a different God and Jesus or any variation there of that Christians describe people who don't believe what they believe. Sorry if this sounds harsh but such is usually the case.

But is that not true? If Jesus is the God-man than he is a very different Jesus from those who believe he was only a man. If God is triune, is that not a different God from one that is not triune? God is who he revealed himself to be and we need to be sure to do due diligence in finding out exactly who he has revealed himself to be.

How do we do due diligence? I remember something yahoshea said about the different way each of us interpret scripture. How do you know which interpretation is right? I can see yahosea's point. It could be judged by the results of the doctrine. God would not give a doctrine that would hinder his children from becoming what He wants for them.

Some things in the Bible are clear, some things are not. The deity of Jesus is one of those things that is very clear. In fact, one has to either ignore certain passages or make things say something else other than what they plainly say.

I do not see how the results of a doctrine have any bearing. It doesn't even really make sense. Doctrine is to be judged by Scripture using proper hermeneutic principles. There are good ways and poor ways of biblical interpretation.

 

[toddm]

Follower,
Please excuse my bluntness, but I have seen little of the love of God in any of your posts.

Be blunt as you wish, thats precisely what you see in my posts.
Are we discussing DOCTRINE here, friend or love ?

If you truly believed in your doctrine why would you not reach out in love to others rather then attack their position.

Do you really want to go there ?
Shall we look at Pauls word and see that yes, we ARE to 'sharply rebuke' those in error when necessary to get them back onto the path of truth ?
let me know if youd like to see the scripture and I'll post it

With UNbelievers we can offer love alone.
But with FALSE teachers it becomes necessary to be harsh/blunt at times when they refuse to stop pushing godless error on others.
[quote:2hk3mbp7]In my reading of scripture I never saw Christ tear down another stand without offering them something better.

And we offer something better....GODS TRUTH and salvation.

At least yaoshea was offering to show what positive results could come from his stand.

Again, getting people to smile and accept 'jesus' by giving them a false doctrine ISNT the proper measure of truth.
Im not interested in these results. Im interested in giving GODS truth to the reader.
All I see from some here is an overwhelming desire to compromise that truth.

It does not seem you care one way or another whether what you are teaching has a positive effect on your readers.

Gods truth ALWAYS has a positive effect on those who are His.
Those who arent and wont be simply is something that is beyond my control.

He shows clearly the results of our actions. He shows “fruitsâ€.

Let me say again that we will not be guilted into compromising His truth.
If a person willingly rejects God because they cant handle the trinity concept, that is on them, not us.


.[/quote:2hk3mbp7]
I have to agree w/ FOC here. When it comes to dealing w/ false teachings, one should be vigilant and bold. I run into this stuff all the time in Salt Lake w/ Mormons. There are Christians here who blur the lines between Christians & Mormons for the sake of maintaining "civil dialogue". Not that I think things need to get disrespectful or uncivil, but when protecting a friendship is more important than proclaiming truth there's a problem.

I get the same way. FOC, like myself, places a high value on God's Word and it's offensive when people distort the text. That kind of behavior calls for some righteous anger, and I'm talking the flipping-tables-whipping-moneychangers kind of righteous anger. :gah

 

[jasoncran]

to compromise the faith for frienship or any other is not right or moral.

 

[boodle]

[/quote]
Some things in the Bible are clear, some things are not. The deity of Jesus is one of those things that is very clear. In fact, one has to either ignore certain passages or make things say something else other than what they plainly say.

I do not see how the results of a doctrine have any bearing. It doesn't even really make sense. Doctrine is to be judged by Scripture using proper hermeneutic principles. There are good ways and poor ways of biblical interpretation.[/quote]

But when you have two parties who both insist that their method of interpretation is good how is a person supposed to know who is right? Our intellects can deceive us all. I would think that teaching has a purpose or why would all the people in the NT spend so much time doing it. It has to be more then just the process of accumulating data in the head. That data has to do something other then just give us a pride in what we think we know. There must be a journey that teaching takes beyond storage between our ears. There must be a belief in the heart and that belief in the heart should produce results or why else would God deem it so important that we know?

 

[boodle]

Free,



There has been a lot of talk about rebuking people. Paul teaches these rules for rebuking.
First notice that Paul is speaking to Timothy. He is a leader and has charge over a body. Paul gives the one in charge the right to rebuke and then only in certain circumstances.
Do any one of us have authority to rebuke another as Paul taught?

1Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers,

Does anyone know the status of Yahoshea? Is he an older man? Has he been approached as a father or a brother? I have read a lot of arrogant confrontation, but little reasonable approach as a brother or father. Is our pride and compulsion to prove that we are right overshadowed our desire to see one restored?
Even if we use the excuse that yahoshea confronted us, does that give us the right to act in like manner?
At what point do we determine if a person is worthy of the love of God shown through us? Or have we traded the love of God in for the intellectual ability to prove our doctrine?
I think we all need be careful. If we dismiss the results/fruits of our doctrines and for proof rely solely on our intellectual ability to discern scripture we are open to being deceived by our own intellect.
IMO we are not here to prove doctrine. We are here to become like Christ. Doctrine is simply a tool in the process. What do you do if the tool doesn’t work?

 

[toddm]

Free,



There has been a lot of talk about rebuking people. Paul teaches these rules for rebuking.
First notice that Paul is speaking to Timothy. He is a leader and has charge over a body. Paul gives the one in charge the right to rebuke and then only in certain circumstances.
Do any one of us have authority to rebuke another as Paul taught?

1Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers,

Does anyone know the status of Yahoshea? Is he an older man? Has he been approached as a father or a brother? I have read a lot of arrogant confrontation, but little reasonable approach as a brother or father. Is our pride and compulsion to prove that we are right overshadowed our desire to see one restored?
Even if we use the excuse that yahoshea confronted us, does that give us the right to act in like manner?
At what point do we determine if a person is worthy of the love of God shown through us? Or have we traded the love of God in for the intellectual ability to prove our doctrine?
I think we all need be careful. If we dismiss the results/fruits of our doctrines and for proof rely solely on our intellectual ability to discern scripture we are open to being deceived by our own intellect.
IMO we are not here to prove doctrine. We are here to become like Christ. Doctrine is simply a tool in the process. What do you do if the tool doesn’t work?

You're assuming that Yahoshea is a Christian when he denies an essential doctrine to Christianity. :naughty

 

[Vic C.]

Does anyone know the status of Yahoshea? Is he an older man? Has he been approached as a father or a brother? I have read a lot of arrogant confrontation, but little reasonable approach as a brother or father. Is our pride and compulsion to prove that we are right overshadowed our desire to see one restored?
Even if we use the excuse that yahoshea confronted us, does that give us the right to act in like manner?
At what point do we determine if a person is worthy of the love of God shown through us? Or have we traded the love of God in for the intellectual ability to prove our doctrine?
I think we all need be careful. If we dismiss the results/fruits of our doctrines and for proof rely solely on our intellectual ability to discern scripture we are open to being deceived by our own intellect.
IMO we are not here to prove doctrine. We are here to become like Christ. Doctrine is simply a tool in the process. What do you do if the tool doesn’t work?

Well since you and Yahoshea are posting from the same IP address, you already know the answers.

Also, do you thinks it's fair to openly point fingers at a couple of members for their bluntness but then disrespect the authority of the site by also violating rules in the TOS?

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.

Aah, the very first rule in our TOS. Breaking rules; wasn't it also Paul who taught against that? How about this rule?

One account per person. Additional account will be deleted. Banned members who are found registering under an "alt" will be banned immediately

Hmm...

This however, does not exclude ill behavior from other members either. :gah

 

[boodle]

Free,



There has been a lot of talk about rebuking people. Paul teaches these rules for rebuking.
First notice that Paul is speaking to Timothy. He is a leader and has charge over a body. Paul gives the one in charge the right to rebuke and then only in certain circumstances.
Do any one of us have authority to rebuke another as Paul taught?

1Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers,

Does anyone know the status of Yahoshea? Is he an older man? Has he been approached as a father or a brother? I have read a lot of arrogant confrontation, but little reasonable approach as a brother or father. Is our pride and compulsion to prove that we are right overshadowed our desire to see one restored?
Even if we use the excuse that yahoshea confronted us, does that give us the right to act in like manner?
At what point do we determine if a person is worthy of the love of God shown through us? Or have we traded the love of God in for the intellectual ability to prove our doctrine?
I think we all need be careful. If we dismiss the results/fruits of our doctrines and for proof rely solely on our intellectual ability to discern scripture we are open to being deceived by our own intellect.
IMO we are not here to prove doctrine. We are here to become like Christ. Doctrine is simply a tool in the process. What do you do if the tool doesn’t work?

You're assuming that Yahoshea is a Christian when he denies an essential doctrine to Christianity. :naughty

This is under the assumption that the doctrine is true or that believing the doctrine is a requirement to being a Christian.

 

[boodle]

Does anyone know the status of Yahoshea? Is he an older man? Has he been approached as a father or a brother? I have read a lot of arrogant confrontation, but little reasonable approach as a brother or father. Is our pride and compulsion to prove that we are right overshadowed our desire to see one restored?
Even if we use the excuse that yahoshea confronted us, does that give us the right to act in like manner?
At what point do we determine if a person is worthy of the love of God shown through us? Or have we traded the love of God in for the intellectual ability to prove our doctrine?
I think we all need be careful. If we dismiss the results/fruits of our doctrines and for proof rely solely on our intellectual ability to discern scripture we are open to being deceived by our own intellect.
IMO we are not here to prove doctrine. We are here to become like Christ. Doctrine is simply a tool in the process. What do you do if the tool doesn’t work?

Well since you and Yahoshea are posting from the same IP address, you already know the answers.

Also, do you thinks it's fair to openly point fingers at a couple of members for their bluntness but then disrespect the authority of the site by also violating rules in the TOS?

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.

Aah, the very first rule in our TOS. Breaking rules; wasn't it also Paul who taught against that? How about this rule?

One account per person. Additional account will be deleted. Banned members who are found registering under an "alt" will be banned immediately

Hmm...

This however, does not exclude ill behavior from other members either. :gah

Would Yahoshea get a fair hearing? Is that name banned?
Personally I do not feel a lot of remorse over refusing to obey laws that are immoral and unfair.
Can't wait to see follower get ahold of this. He will have a field day with it. LOL at least he will have fun playing the game.
After all tis is only a game. Results are not important.
Maybe I will play pacman for a while. I will net the same entertainment from it as this forum.

 

[follower of Christ]

Would Yahoshea get a fair hearing? Is that name banned?
Personally I do not feel a lot of remorse over refusing to obey laws that are immoral and unfair.
Can't wait to see follower get ahold of this. He will have a field day with it. LOL at least he will have fun playing the game.
After all tis is only a game. Results are not important.
Maybe I will play pacman for a while. I will net the same entertainment from it as this forum.

Actually, unlike some here, I TRY to obey the rules.
Are you insinuating that I dont ?

 

[follower of Christ]

This is under the assumption that the doctrine is true or that believing the doctrine is a requirement to being a Christian.

Question:
Do you believe that we can believe anything we WANT to believe, even if its is horribly wrong or heretical, and somehow God is obligated to save us just because we mouthed some prayer 20 years ago ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Well since you and Yahoshea are posting from the same IP address, you already know the answers.

Ohhhhh...now I see

 

[follower of Christ]

But when you have two parties who both insist that their method of interpretation is good how is a person supposed to know who is right? Our intellects can deceive us all.

Seems easy enough in this sort of case.
John 1 show very plainly that the Word IS God and that Jesus is the Word.
So if one party is denying that fact, who do you say is the wrong one ?

I would think that teaching has a purpose or why would all the people in the NT spend so much time doing it. It has to be more then just the process of accumulating data in the head. That data has to do something other then just give us a pride in what we think we know.

With some it does worse than pride. With some it seems that truth literally blinds them. Just as it did with the Jews when Jesus gave them the truth.

There must be a journey that teaching takes beyond storage between our ears. There must be a belief in the heart and that belief in the heart should produce results or why else would God deem it so important that we know?

That journey, friend, includes a lot of walking. We dont just get to our destination by teleportation.
The journey EVERY christian should be on right now is learning what GOD says about Himself in the WORD He gave us...

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.' "
(Matthew 4:4 EMTV)

and

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be proficient, having been thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17 EMTV)

Sounds pretty clear...know what I mean ?

 

[toddm]

Free,



There has been a lot of talk about rebuking people. Paul teaches these rules for rebuking.
First notice that Paul is speaking to Timothy. He is a leader and has charge over a body. Paul gives the one in charge the right to rebuke and then only in certain circumstances.
Do any one of us have authority to rebuke another as Paul taught?

1Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers,

Does anyone know the status of Yahoshea? Is he an older man? Has he been approached as a father or a brother? I have read a lot of arrogant confrontation, but little reasonable approach as a brother or father. Is our pride and compulsion to prove that we are right overshadowed our desire to see one restored?
Even if we use the excuse that yahoshea confronted us, does that give us the right to act in like manner?
At what point do we determine if a person is worthy of the love of God shown through us? Or have we traded the love of God in for the intellectual ability to prove our doctrine?
I think we all need be careful. If we dismiss the results/fruits of our doctrines and for proof rely solely on our intellectual ability to discern scripture we are open to being deceived by our own intellect.
IMO we are not here to prove doctrine. We are here to become like Christ. Doctrine is simply a tool in the process. What do you do if the tool doesn’t work?

You're assuming that Yahoshea is a Christian when he denies an essential doctrine to Christianity. :naughty

This is under the assumption that the doctrine is true or that believing the doctrine is a requirement to being a Christian.

If you don't follow the Jesus of the Bible, that is God, then you don't follow the right Jesus and you in fact follow a "false Jesus", therefore making you NOT a Christian.

 

[seekandlisten]

If you don't follow the Jesus of the Bible, that is God, then you don't follow the right Jesus and you in fact follow a "false Jesus", therefore making you NOT a Christian.

Some would disagree. And no I'm not getting back into this argument.

 

[toddm]

If you don't follow the Jesus of the Bible, that is God, then you don't follow the right Jesus and you in fact follow a "false Jesus", therefore making you NOT a Christian.

Some would disagree. And no I'm not getting back into this argument.

Of course some disagree...they're all over the place on this board. :bigfrown

 

[follower of Christ]

If you don't follow the Jesus of the Bible, that is God, then you don't follow the right Jesus and you in fact follow a "false Jesus", therefore making you NOT a Christian.

Some would disagree. And no I'm not getting back into this argument.

So, again, if I say I like Barrack Obama because shes a wonderful woman then I AM talking about our President ?

 

[cyberjosh]

*GETTING BACK ON TOPIC*

So is there anyone here that thinks that Elohim refers to the Trinity in its original context or does it refer to something else? Who does the 'us' refer to in Genesis 1:26?