Employment

[reba]

Pebbles have you ever spent a year or more on a working farm?
Maybe where you live farming life is like that, although i doubt it, but i assure you that is not the case in Northern California.

 

[handy]

That's not exactly true if you were a subsistence farmer then you worked extremely long days during spring and autumn however during summer and winter (particularly winter) you did nothing at all really beyond trying to cling to life. So really the notion they worked absurdly hard all the time is wrong.

:toofunny Sorry Pebbles...shouldn't laugh but sitting here as someone who grew up on a farm and now lives on a ranch...trust me, winter is the roughest.;)

As to the OP..."Is employment for everyone?"

Yes...employment is for everyone. Even if one isn't paid for it. I understand where you're coming from as to people suddenly becoming less than interested if you say you are "unemployed". But, it might not be simply because they are valuing people by their jobs but because "unemployment" is a very sensitive subject...people know that unemployment most likely means lack of financial security, pressures at home, loss of self worth.

I get that you're trying to untie self-worth from gainful employment and I do see your point. We shouldn't value people based on their job or lack of one.

But, employment is very necessary...like I said earlier, even if one isn't paid for it. For years I was "unemployed"...but in those years I've never worked harder in my life. The kids were little and not much help around the house or ranch, my husband worked long hours down in town (still does) and pretty much anything that needed to be done was done by yours truly. The typical life of a stay at home mom on a ranch. Yet, I felt the same sense that you're referring to...that subtle attitude of "she doesn't do anything" from people or even worse: "she's not living up to her potential".

Gah.

If one is unemployed in the sense that one is between life supporting income earning...(how's that for a pc term :p ) then yes, one should strive to realize that one's worth isn't due to one's job, to get out there and do something, volunteer, become part of a support system somewhere, minister to others etc. and to always remember that God will supply the needs.

 

[phantom309]

I sorta wonder if what the lord had in mind. By work was an all consuming fast paced 50 hour week full of stress at a level of 100% accuracy or if employment in Jesus time was more moderately paced?

I think not.

Obviously after the incident in the garden,we were expected to work for what we have but I think the high hours and stress seen today are the result of ever-present and growing greed.

Lets think back to the 50s.Dad could go out and work 40 hours a week and in most cases provide what the family needed in addition to some extras.Sure,things were still tight for some but overall the family in general was much more successful.

Now we live in a world where Dad puts in 60+ hours a week in addition to mom doing the same and in some cases this still isnt enough.

Obviously many factors are at play..increased cost of living,increased (and self-imposed) standards of living,not to mention that most major companies expect the grind to continue producing 24 hours a day.

I dont think that God in any way intended things to spiral out of control as they have,but in many ways Im sure itll get worse before we see things set right once and for all.

 

[Pebbles]

I was refering to historical subsitance farmers in the past. Yes today we know of crop cycling so that numerous harvests can be taken in a year however in the past that didn't happen. The ground would have also been unable to support it due to the lack of mordern day fertilizers.

If the pesants of the past had animals they would tend to them during the summer but seeing as these pepole would only have one cow or so at most it didn't take long.

 

[handy]

Pebbles, still not quite understanding life on a small farm or ranch.

I'm curious as to how old some of the folks here are. There was a brief "golden era" in the late 40's through the 60's when a man could support a family on 40 hours a week. This was largely due to wide open job market after the war and to the unions that forced employers into agreeing to 40 hour work weeks, vacation time and time off for sickness. Up until the unions gained power in the 30's, 12-14 hour shifts, no time off, no benefits and if something happened to you, you were out with nothing was the norm. Wages were often paid in company store credit, where one could only buy from the employer at greatly inflated rates. "Sixteen tons and what do I get? Another day older and deeper in debt. Saint Peter don't call because I can't go...I owe my soul to the company store" is about the coal miners who were paid only in credit. My husband's family were coal miners...and when we visited Pennsylvania a couple of years ago, we talked with Aunt Liz about life for the miners there. She hardly ever saw her father. He was gone before she got up and didn't come home until long after she was in bed. They lived in company housing (and he was docked in his "wages" for the cost) and it was a duplex. One day she remembered men coming to the family next door and making them gather up all their belongings and leave. The man died in the mine and bam...they were kicked out on the street. She also remembered the strike busters when the miners were unionizing. They rode through the towns with guns, threatening everyone, setting fires, and terrorizing the miners families.

But, the unions, having done an important job of rectifying truly horrible working conditions needed to justify their continued existence, so got into demanding ever shorter work hours, ever higher salaries, ever better benefits until employers simply moved over seas.

I think that anyone living prior to the unions...from the slaves building the pyramids all the way up to the kids working in the textile mills early in the last century would find this discussion ludicrous.

 

[Danus]

The good Lord loves a work'en man.

 

[reba]

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[Nacho]

I was born and raised farming and ranching and my dad still farms. Trust me winter isn't a time to sit around and do nothing especially if you have livestock.

Ever hear the saying "work is never done"? A farmer was the first one to say that!! :D

 

[Danus]

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Pure truth. I love how God's word cuts right to the chase.


As I read some of these post, it's clear to me that the over-arching message some have is the injustices served when someone submits themselves to other men in the form of work, and systems of working.

There are strong workers and there are weak workers. The weaker tend to pipe-up about their treatment, but it happens on all levels.

I've heard VP's complain about how the company has threaded them. How unfair it is that they did not get the same stock options as last year, or how they did not get the project they wanted to work on...and on and on.

I have a unique vantage point in the working world. I started working doing good old blue collar manual labor. I used to hear some of those guys bellyache about their situation all the time. The company this and the man that. Some of it was justified, but a lot wasn't.

I used to think about how it might be better some day if I moved up to one of those cushy white collar management jobs......how wrong I was. It's the same talk on another level.

I think as Christians we need to work and work hard, but do not submit ourselves to the promises of men. Submit to God, to the promises of God. Work hard in your trade or vocation and serve the lord. You can not go wrong in this. You'll be happy and satisfied.

"“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.†- Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Potluck]

I never thought I'd be debating about working for a living against ... what?

Something's missing.


OK, if you choose not to work for a living because of the injustice of it all what then is the alternative?

 

[Danus]

I never thought I'd be debating about working for a living against ... what?

Something's missing.


OK, if you choose not to work for a living because of the injustice of it all what then is the alternative?

What's to debate? I mean what's the argument, or the "what" ?


If one chooses not to work for a living then he starves. Should he? Is that fair? is that just? I think it is.

However, some people CAN'T work, or are too weak to work. I think Jesus has provided clear instructions on how we are to treat one another, and under what circumstances.

We've been told that we will always have the poor. Any man who willingly chooses to be poor, is worse off for his own sake than the man who simply is poor, and any man who turns his back on the poor might as well be poor. ((I'm paraphrasing.)))

 

[Potluck]

However, some people CAN'T work, or are too weak to work. I think Jesus has provided clear instructions on how we are to treat one another, and under what circumstances.

Yes of course. That's why I used the word "chooses".

I know how my mind works. If I'm exposed to a new idea a question that idea in my mind for a while. But as the days progress, the weeks pass I soon become so used to the idea that the newness of it wears off making the idea seem like it's nothing really all that new and I'm on my way to accepting without further question. Therefore if I choose to act upon it then I'm ready to rationalize just about anything to keep from questioning that new idea.

There's a nasty trend that seems to be brewing, one of dependence, of being entitled simply because one lives. One didn't ask to be born, One didn't ask to be in the station of life one finds themselves. It must be God's fault or something or just a happenstance occurrence. Therefore it's not my fault so I'm entitled to have things just as anyone else may have. That's only fair. If someone has a lot more than I do then it's their responsibility to share it (It's the right thing to do) because there's just no way they got it legally or morally because there's no way I will do the same or be able to do the same for one reason or another. So let's all be fair about this, pay your share and play by the same rules so everybody gets a fair shake.

So is the above the alternative to choosing not to work? Is that where we're headed?

 

[reba]

I was born and raised farming and ranching and my dad still farms. Trust me winter isn't a time to sit around and do nothing especially if you have livestock.

Ever hear the saying "work is never done"? A farmer was the first one to say that!! :D

That was not a farmer that was a wife!

"“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.†- Martin Luther King Jr.

AMEN

 

[Danus]

Yes of course. That's why I used the word "chooses".

I know how my mind works. If I'm exposed to a new idea a question that idea in my mind for a while. But as the days progress, the weeks pass I soon become so used to the idea that the newness of it wears off making the idea seem like it's nothing really all that new and I'm on my way to accepting without further question. Therefore if I choose to act upon it then I'm ready to rationalize just about anything to keep from questioning that new idea.

There's a nasty trend that seems to be brewing, one of dependence, of being entitled simply because one lives. One didn't ask to be born, One didn't ask to be in the station of life one finds themselves. It must be God's fault or something or just a happenstance occurrence. Therefore it's not my fault so I'm entitled to have things just as anyone else may have. That's only fair. If someone has a lot more than I do then it's their responsibility to share it (It's the right thing to do) because there's just no way they got it legally or morally because there's no way I will do the same or be able to do the same for one reason or another. So let's all be fair about this, pay your share and play by the same rules so everybody gets a fair shake.

So is the above the alternative to choosing not to work? Is that where we're headed?

Ah, I see what you mean. Sort of the old "frog in the frying pan pan" analogy as to how certain idea's can become common without question in society. "The Norm".

I see that nasty norm brewing as well.

Are we head that way? I sure hope not, but if we are in some way, I think it will be disastrous fast enough for people to see the foolishness of it. However, in a way we've created this social economic situation to some point, by the many things some have said here.

Like Pebbles story of being laid off with two others vs the manager making any sacrifice. True or not, does not matter because the heart of that story is very real.

I have two movies I'd like to recommend for everyone here. "The Company Man" (a modern drama) and "The Corporation" (A documentary)

Watch The Corporation fist then watch The Company Men. One hold the truth of the other in a profound way. (too much to type about regarding this, but look them up)

 

[Potluck]

In order to support the claim of unfairness one must uplift past circumstances as being good. The good 'ol days where life was beautiful all the time and if it wasn't well, it really wasn't as bad as it is today anyway.
Once that idea of the past is concluded then it's a simply step toward pointing out the bad of present circumstances. There has to be an adverse difference. If present circumstances are better than the banner of unfairness carries no weight. How can it?
So there has to be a reason why things have gotten so bad. Big corporations, the rich, corruption ... the whole nine yards. Mixing a little truth into it makes the whole idea look worthy and credible. It's the system, it's the rich, it's this and it's that. But above all it's sooo unfair.
But you can't build something solid and good on a foundation that has little substance in the first place. When the base is marbled with the weakness of deception and untruths what is built is destined to fall. And what is rescued after the collapse? The deceptions and the untruths.

 

[Danus]

In order to support the claim of unfairness one must uplift past circumstances as being good. The good 'ol days where life was beautiful all the time and if it wasn't well, it really wasn't as bad as it is today anyway.
Once that idea of the past is concluded then it's a simply step toward pointing out the bad of present circumstances. There has to be an adverse difference. If present circumstances are better than the banner of unfairness carries no weight. How can it?
So there has to be a reason why things have gotten so bad. Big corporations, the rich, corruption ... the whole nine yards. Mixing a little truth into it makes the whole idea look worthy and credible. It's the system, it's the rich, it's this and it's that. But above all it's sooo unfair.
But you can't build something solid and good on a foundation that has little substance in the first place. When the base is marbled with the weakness of deception and untruths what is built is destined to fall. And what is rescued after the collapse? The deceptions and the untruths.

So what's your stand on this ambiguous social economic issue of today? Pro rich, pro 99% .....?

I am in the neither camp, and I suspect you might be as well; choosing instead to see beyond the simplicity of the argument at hand.

I own stock in a company my wife was laid off from. She has some stock there too, but she once asked if we should sell it, because she did not like having it because of being laid off.

I half jokingly said; "are you kidding?" you being laid off just increased the value. .....I did convince her not to sell because I'm not. The last round of layoff came from people like me. Stock holders demanding more value and results no matter what. That's the current system we have. work is not a charity, it's a privilege, not a right.

We have gotten away from understanding basic rights I think. We have people adding too basic human rights as if the world is their God, and I dare say for many it is.

 

[childeye]

Employment eh? Adam tended the garden, but work at that time was not the same as work today. After the knowledge of good and evil we were forced to earn our bread by the sweat of our brow. It's notable that God did not desire it to be that way while many falsely assert that He did.

It was only after we took God for granted that it became so. Perhaps that could not be helped. Jesus however did not have a worldly employment. He taught that God would provide if only we sought His righteousness. He spoke truthfully. His work was not for money or bread that fills the stomach, his work is back to tending the garden.

 

[Vic C.]

I was born and raised farming and ranching and my dad still farms. Trust me winter isn't a time to sit around and do nothing especially if you have livestock.

Ever hear the saying "work is never done"? A farmer was the first one to say that!! :D

That made me chuckle!

I've always heard that was attributed to the housewife. :yes

Actually, I believe it was first said by our Lord.

 

[felix]

Is Employment for everyone?

No. Employment is a curse upon all men not women (Gen 3:19).

 

[handy]

No. Employment is a curse upon all men not women (Gen 3:19).

:toofunny Sorry again...this thread is filled with some unintentional humor. I truly do see what you're getting at Felix it's just...hey...it's unfair that's what it is...you men don't have to go through the burden of painful child bearing, why are we women expected to work just as hard, and sometimes even longer hours than you men.



<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17298">13</sup> She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17299">14</sup> She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17300">15</sup> She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17301">16</sup> She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17302">17</sup> She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17303">18</sup> She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17304">19</sup> In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17305">20</sup> She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17306">21</sup> When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-17307">22</sup> She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
From Proverbs 31

Now we'll all see who will line up to say that women's work isn't as "hard" as men's work. Yeah.

Even before the fall, God realized that Adam would need a helper. We are still to be helpers...not only in the work we have to do, but to help when our husbands need help as well. Which is why I can work the front-loader and the plow, pound posts, stretch bobbed wire, buck hay, feed the stock, water them (fun when everything is frozen), mow the lawns, prune the bushes, repair broken things...in addition to: making meals, shopping, doing housework, doing laundry, getting kids back and forth, scheduling doctor's appointments, paying bills, etc. etc. etc.

My husband works hard, and often leaves the house on Monday morning and isn't home until Thursday or Friday night. On weeknights when he is home, he will do what he can...he was clearing our driveway last night at 10:00 even though he needs to be up by 5:30. But, usually he isn't here so I do everything that needs to be done here because I'm his helper...

Would I choose to live here. No. Not now that the kids are older. It would be far easier if we lived in town. But, he won't move and I won't leave him so here I am...

Hey Reba...how's that "employment isn't for women" working out for you? Any better?