End of Apostles and Prophets?

[jonahmano]

In Ephesians we read ..........And He gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the body of Christ..............


But we seldom seen an apostle or any prophet in a local church but we do see many Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

Do we mean that the designation of Apostles and Prophets ended?

 

[Willie T]

In Ephesians we read ..........And He gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the body of Christ..............


But we seldom seen an apostle or any prophet in a local church but we do see many Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

Do we mean that the designation of Apostles and Prophets ended?

What, attributes, specifically, do you ascribe as belonging to either an Apostle, or a Prophet?

 

[OzSpen]

In Ephesians we read ..........And He gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the body of Christ..............


But we seldom seen an apostle or any prophet in a local church but we do see many Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

Do we mean that the designation of Apostles and Prophets ended?

Brother,

In my long experience in the Christian church, I have found that evangelical churches do not want to discuss the need for contemporary apostles and prophets because of the cessationist perspective concerning the gifts of the Spirit. I am not of that view.

See these articles:

• Andrew Corbett, 'What is an apostle?'

• Dave Miller: 'Are there modern-day apostles?'

• Jim Feeney, 'Christian Prophets Today? Modern Day Apostles? Yes!'

• Steve Atkerson, 'Are there apostles in today's church?'

I'm of the view that contemporary apostles come in the guise of pioneer church planters and pioneer missionaries.

As for prophets, they are people who regularly engage in the manifestation of prophecy (not to deal with future prediction) when the church gathers. But not too many churches allow for that in my part of the world - except for small groups in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.

Oz

 

[follower]

In Ephesians we read ..........And He gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the body of Christ..............
But we seldom seen an apostle or any prophet in a local church but we do see many Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
Do we mean that the designation of Apostles and Prophets ended?

hmmm...... are there any descriptions in Scripture of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers ? things like qualifications, traits, characteristics or tests for those who want to or who claim to be one of those ?

 

[OzSpen]

hmmm...... are there any descriptions in Scripture of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers ? things like qualifications, traits, characteristics or tests for those who want to or who claim to be one of those ?

We have qualifications for overseers/bishops (1 Tim 3:1-7) and qualifications for deacons (1 Tim 3:8-13). But I can't find anything like that (after the death of the original 12) for apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. We can pick up bits and pieces in Scripture.

We do know from 1 Cor 12:27-31 (ESV) that there is a continuation of these gifts:

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.​

In this list there is no mention of pastors. But Paul exhorted the Corinthians to 'earnestly desire the higher gifts'.

 

[jonahmano]

How about this then

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Ephesians 2:20

Jesus is the corner stone and the apostles and prophets are the foundations and we are the building. Can this verse prove that apostleship and prophets ended because upon the foundation there can't be more foundations.

 

[follower]

How about this then

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Ephesians 2:20

Jesus is the corner stone and the apostles and prophets are the foundations and we are the building. Can this verse prove that apostleship and prophets ended because upon the foundation there can't be more foundations.

by itself it's not a proof, and with the rest /all of Scripture and in keeping the whole world in view, their may well be a need for apostles and prophets and evangelists and teachers and pastors (but not the modern kind- especially not paid positions) , Yhwh knows. --- certainly not the telvised ones who claim it for themselves , but that's another story ....

 

[follower]

some (apparently) Biblical men of Yhwh / websites, etc, have shown that there's listed references to 30 apostles (sent ones) in the Bible. there may or may not be some difference in the references to the original apostles and others.

 

[GrannyJ]

So far as I know, the word 'apostle' means one who is sent away, or in other words a messenger. So I guess in its original sense, we have plenty of them today. Missionaries, for example, or anyone else who is sent on church business.

I don't think it's a title that anyone can bestow on themselves, though, as if it makes them more special than anyone else, or puts them on the same footing as Peter, Paul etc.

 

[OzSpen]

1 throne.(Chief corner stone). 24 thrones(Foundations/Apsotles/Prophets). Multitudes(believers)

I guess there are no more than 24 true Apostles and Prophets since Christ, for his Church.

Rom 16:7 (NIV) reads, 'Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among [ or are esteemed by] the apostles and they were in Christ before I was'.

The NRSV translates as: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was".

Since 'Junia' is feminine, many scholars (including the NIV & NRSV translators) regard Junia as a female apostle. Does your 24 include this woman?

 

[OzSpen]

So far as I know, the word 'apostle' means one who is sent away, or in other words a messenger. So I guess in its original sense, we have plenty of them today. Missionaries, for example, or anyone else who is sent on church business.

I don't think it's a title that anyone can bestow on themselves, though, as if it makes them more special than anyone else, or puts them on the same footing as Peter, Paul etc.

You have hit on a core meaning. In fact 2 Cor 12:12 (ESV) says one of the signs of a true apostle is signs, wonders and mighty works.

2 Cor 8:23 (ESV) translates apostolos as 'messengers' (which Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives as a legitimate meaning) and A&G give the meaning in this verse as 'missionary' (p. 99). Epaphroditus was a messenger (apostle) of the Philippians (Phil 2:25 ESV ).

I'm of the view that there have been many apostles since the time of the first century (and they have been missionaries (even pioneering missionaries) and pioneering church planters. They are the 'sent ones', the messengers, the delegates, envoys for us.

 

[OzSpen]

some (apparently) Biblical men of Yhwh / websites, etc, have shown that there's listed references to 30 apostles (sent ones) in the Bible. there may or may not be some difference in the references to the original apostles and others.

Why don't you provide a link that should give the biblical evidence?

 

[jonahmano]

by itself it's not a proof, and with the rest /all of Scripture and in keeping the whole world in view, their may well be a need for apostles and prophets and evangelists and teachers and pastors (but not the modern kind- especially not paid positions) , Yhwh knows. --- certainly not the telvised ones who claim it for themselves , but that's another story ....

I'm just talking about Apostles and prophets. Please don't divert the subject. I never mentioned about Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers

 

[jonahmano]

And also can we believe that the positions of apostleship and prophets have got vanished with the church becoming more self-centered. It's like our church, our pastors, our worship leaders, our evangelits and we don't have any connection with others

 

[follower]

I'm just talking about Apostles and prophets. Please don't divert the subject. I never mentioned about Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers

it's not a diversion. it's more like , not just, a clarification, and observation --- the apostles today (for those who accept them) recognize and work with the prophets and evangelists and teachers and pastors(realize pastor in the body of Christ is not same as pastor /pd position/ in 'church'), and with all the members --- all are indeed present and working jointly in the body of Christ and quite apart from and opposed by the world church. like if you see a brother in your house, you don't see a body part on its own - but the whole of him. so also Yeshua's believers are not divided like the worldly show of churches is, but are one.

 

[jonahmano]

it's not a diversion. it's more like , not just, a clarification, and observation --- the apostles today (for those who accept them) recognize and work with the prophets and evangelists and teachers and pastors(realize pastor in the body of Christ is not same as pastor /pd position/ in 'church'), and with all the members --- all are indeed present and working jointly in the body of Christ and quite apart from and opposed by the world church. like if you see a brother in your house, you don't see a body part on its own - but the whole of him. so also Yeshua's believers are not divided like the worldly show of churches is, but are one.

Great enlightenment but does this happen in this world the way you are describing. Would have been nice if you have summarized a bit further

 

[JLB]

What, attributes, specifically, do you ascribe as belonging to either an Apostle, or a Prophet?

The Bible very plainly states that I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. That's a pretty durn good thing to be !

The Bible very plainly states that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

I'm with you though, Brother!

He is our righteousness!


JLB

 

[follower]

Great enlightenment but does this happen in this world the way you are describing. Would have been nice if you have summarized a bit further

yes, and all the martyrs immersed in Yeshua are granted freely without merit by Christ Jesus' Faithfulness and accomplished work all
"enlightenment" in sheer grace, a gift of Yhwh as He pleases . it's very very awkward discussing at all because the workers/disciples in the body of Christ Jesus are persecuted and attacked and their families too, in almost all places on earth including the untied states.
and few persons even in religious settings, like in churches or on this or other forums,
have experienced seeing the true martyrs living and working together for the Gospel's Sake - the unselfish, self-sacrificing, glorious, healing and saving lives and efforts of those called and set apart by Christ Jesus.
many people point out that they haven't found it('good' active living abiding miracle working powerful true fellowship in Christ Jesus on earth), and later when further questioned (in person, with love and hope for the best) they admit or confess that they're not willing to give up everything that God requires, and they're not willing to recognize and do everything He says and to turn away and renounce all that He says to renounce ..... (i.e. "the Lord" is only "Lord" of what they chose, not of all their life; Yhwh never accepts that and i think He calls it idolatry in His Word: someone who keeps control of his or her life instead of turning it all , everything entirely, over to Him with joyful abandon and trust and reliance on Him).
it "would be nice" to be able to daily point to / show you an example; this rests with Yhwh, just like the answers/interpretations of dreams and visions, and the growth which He gives of the sown and watered seed / the body of Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

by itself it's not a proof, and with the rest /all of Scripture and in keeping the whole world in view, their may well be a need for apostles and prophets and evangelists and teachers and pastors (but not the modern kind- especially not paid positions) , Yhwh knows. --- certainly not the telvised ones who claim it for themselves , but that's another story ....

:amen

 

[eddif]

We have qualifications for overseers/bishops (1 Tim 3:1-7) and qualifications for deacons (1 Tim 3:8-13). But I can't find anything like that (after the death of the original 12) for apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. We can pick up bits and pieces in Scripture.

We do know from 1 Cor 12:27-31 (ESV) that there is a continuation of these gifts:

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.​

In this list there is no mention of pastors. But Paul exhorted the Corinthians to 'earnestly desire the higher gifts'.

The Corinthians were mostly Gentiles who had no knowledge of true Godly behavior. No more following Wizards and demons (led). The spirituals include Jewish offices and form the one new man.

I want to track this thread.

eddif