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End Times According to Matthew 24 and 25 Part 1

Jim Parker said:
That question is a different topic from the statement to which you referred it.
I didn't say anything about what a person does to be saved.
Click to expand...

Ok.

Please answer this question.




Do you believe a person who has the Spirit of Christ in them and walks in obedience to Christ is part of the Church?


JLB
 
Jim Parker said:
That's a different subject.
Please stick to one topic at a time.
Click to expand...

It’s the same topic.

Your claim that the Church did not exist before Pentecost.

That is the discussion topic.


This came out of the ridiculous claim that the Olivet Discourse was not for the Church but for Jews.



JLB
 
JLB said:
Let me show you the phrase you used that led me to believe this is what you were saying.
That is what saved means:
Inheriting God’s Kingdom
Entering God’ Kingdom
Being welcome in God’s Kingdom
Having part in God’s Kingdom
Click to expand...
You left out eternal life.

Eternal life is the key element of Christ's ministry: the destruction of the power of death.
Jesus destroyed the power of death so that eternal life is available to all of mankind.

My point was that no one was saved UNDER Jesus' ministry but, as a result of His finished work, anyone who believes may have eternal life.

In order to enter into that eternal life, a believer must die to the life of the flesh and be born again into the life in the spirit. That requires that they be baptized in water and in the Spirit. (John 3:5)
 
JLB said:
Your claim that the Church did not exist before Pentecost.
That is the discussion topic.
Click to expand...
That is not the topic of the OP.
But it is a fact that the Church, i.e.: the assembly of those who believe in Jesus Christ and who have been baptized into Christ and who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, did not exist until after the Holy Spirit was given.
JLB said:
This came out of the ridiculous claim that the Olivet Discourse was not for the Church but for Jews.
Click to expand...
I never said, "the Olivet Discourse was not for the Church but for Jews."
Please do not "put words in my mouth."
I have no intention of refuting or defending something I never said.
 
Jim Parker said:
You left out eternal life.

Eternal life is the key element of Christ's ministry: the destruction of the power of death.
Jesus destroyed the power of death so that eternal life is available to all of mankind.

My point was that no one was saved UNDER Jesus' ministry but, as a result of His finished work, anyone who believes may have eternal life.

In order to enter into that eternal life, a believer must die to the life of the flesh and be born again into the life in the spirit. That requires that they be baptized in water and in the Spirit. (John 3:5)
Click to expand...

Eternal life is the result of being blessed.


The blessing of Abraham is:

Fellowship with God (covenant relationship)
He is an enemy to your enemies (divine protection).
Spiritual wealth
Physical health
Material wealth
Eternal Life.


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


JLB
 
JLB said:
Eternal life is the result of being blessed.
Click to expand...
Eternal life is salvation from death.
Satan deceives mankind by inciting man to sin and sin brings death.
Jesus saved mankind when He abolished death.
Making eternal life available to all of mankind is the reason Jesus died and rose again.
Salvation is being given eternal life.
Salvation is salvation from death.
Yes, it is a blessing to be saved from physical death and eternal (the 2nd) death.

2Ti 1:8-10 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
 
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Jim Parker said:
a person who watches or notices something
Click to expand...

If a person watches or notices the scriptures, then how is the phrase “walking in truth” or
“obeying the truth” like a foreign language to them?


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31

again


Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6


again


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


again


I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 2 John 4


again


3 For Your lovingkindness is before my eyes,
And I have walked in Your truth. Psalm 26:3


again


And Solomon said: “You have shown great mercy to Your servant David my father, because he walked before You in truth, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with You; You have continued this great kindness for him, and You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day.
1 Kings 3:6


again


and said, “Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what is good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Isaiah 38:3


again


If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 1 John 1:6


again


For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth. 3 John 3


JLB
 
Jim Parker said:
That is not the topic of the OP.
But it is a fact that the Church, i.e.: the assembly of those who believe in Jesus Christ and who have been baptized into Christ and who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, did not exist until after the Holy Spirit was given.
Click to expand...


Please provide scripture for you definition.



JLB
 
Jim Parker said:
I never said, "the Olivet Discourse was not for the Church but for Jews."
Please do not "put words in my mouth."
I have no intention of refuting or defending something I never said.
Click to expand...



Here is your quote from post # 64 - in reference to the Olivet Discourse.


That is a total non-sequitor.
The discussion had absolutely nothing to do with the Church.
There is absolutely no basis for any reference to the church (which did not as yet even exist).
Jesus was answering three specific questions asked by his disciples.
There is nothing in his answers from which we should logically draw any reference to the Church.
That is a leap too far.
Click to expand...


JLB
 
Jim Parker said:
In order to enter into that eternal life, a believer must die to the life of the flesh and be born again into the life in the spirit. That requires that they be baptized in water and in the Spirit. (John 3:5)
Click to expand...

John 3:5 has nothing to do with Baptism.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

John 3:6 describes what Jesus said in verse 5.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Natural birth and spiritual birth.

Jesus spoke to him of natural things to describe spiritual things.

Natural birth and Spiritual birth.



If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12



JLB
 
JLB said:
John 3:5 has nothing to do with Baptism.
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6
John 3:6 describes what Jesus said in verse 5.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Natural birth and spiritual birth.
Jesus spoke to him of natural things to describe spiritual things.
Natural birth and Spiritual birth.
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
JLB
Click to expand...
Since this "discussion" is going nowhere, I'm not going to respond further.
 
Jim Parker said:
End Times According to Matthew 24 and 25 Part 1A

Mat 24:1-3 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The disciples draw Jesus’ attention to the beautiful buildings of the temple and Jesus responds with the statement that they will all be totally demolished. Then the disciples then ask three questions.
1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your coming?
3. What will be the sign of the end of the age?

Jesus’ answers to these three questions are not easily separated into sections so that it is clear which of His statements refer to which question. In fact, the answers to the questions describe events which overlap beginning with the destruction of Herod’s temple and concluding with Jesus return and the judgment.

Part of the answer to the first question describes the events of the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called the Great Revolt. It was the first of three major rebellions by the Jews against the Roman Empire, fought in the Eastern Mediterranean. During that war, the Romans took Jerusalem in 70 AD and the temple was destroyed. It was left with not one stone upon another but not before the Roman general Titus entered the Most Holy Place and erected a statue of himself thus fulfilling the prophesy of Daniel 9:23 about the “abomination of desolation”. That prophecy may be fulfilled again if and when another temple is built in Jerusalem. Everything necessary to do so has been prepared and is ready today.

The first part of the answer; “The Beginning of Birth Pangs.” Mat 24:4-14
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
“And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
“Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The signs of the “beginning of sorrows” include:
1. False Christs (This teaching may be why Thomas refused to believe Jesus had risen until he put his finger in the nail holes and his hand into the spear wound in Jesus’ side. He wanted to make sure they had not see a false Christ.)
2. Wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilence. This is the continuous condition of mankind up until today.
3. Hatred of Jews has been a constant experience since the time of Esther. The Romans, after three Jewish wars, developed a hatred for the Jews who were so ungrateful for the “benevolence” of Rome. The 20th century saw the attempt to exterminate all the Jews of Europe during the time of the Nazi rule and, today, the Muslim nations surrounding the nation Israel are united in their desire to annihilate every Jew in Israel.
Hatred of Christianity rose with the advent of atheist communism in the 19th century and became dominant in the 20th century among the atheist communist nations.
4. False prophets have been a constant part of society since the time of Moses. They continue until today with repeated proclamations of when Jesus will return.

5. The end will come when the Gospel has been preached to all nations.

The second part of the answer: The Great Tribulation: Mat 24:15-28
15-20 Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

As stated above, one fulfillment of the “Abomination of desolation” was accomplished when Roman general Titus set up a statue of himself in the most holy place of the temple before he destroyed it.

Note the words “when you see”. This is an indication that Jesus was telling his disciples that they might well be alive to see the destruction of the temple by Titus in 70 AD some 40 years after these words were spoken by Jesus.

The references to Judea and to the Sabbath indicates that the events of which He is speaking are also with reference to the Jews living in Judea at the time of these events.

21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

This passage, again, appears to refer to the Jews of Judea who lived at the time of the apostles and who would witness the events of the first Roman-Jewish war as well as future events. The words “for then” refer back to the previous passage that had to do with the plight of the Jews at the time of the destruction of the temple. But the description of the great tribulation being greater than at any time, requires that we consider such events as the wars of the 20th century during which hundreds of millions of people were killed in wars, revolutions, political purges and the advent of nuclear warfare. These were much greater than the tribulations of the First Roman-Jewish War so, I conclude that Jesus was speaking both of events in the near future and also events leading up to His second coming.

Those days will be shortened so that “the elect”, who go through this great tribulation, are not so overwhelmed by the severity of the events as to repudiate their faith.
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What will there be about those days that will cause them to be greater tribulation than any other time, past, present or future? When Jerusalem was taken, 70 AD, it was very difficult! When the city was starving to death and people were selling dove's dung for food, it was very bad. For a Jew living in Berlin in 42 or 43, their chances of survival was just about zero! Why are these days in the future going to be worse? What will cause this great tribulation or pressure?

If we read Rev. 13 we will get a hint: it will be like in Nebuchadnezzar's day: there will be an image and the threat will be, worship this image or lose your head. But it gets worse: there will be a mark, and again, people will be told, accept this mark, or lose your head. But ANGELS will tell everyone that to take the mark will doom them to hell! Could it get worse? It does! The two witnesses will stop the rain. The first three trumpet judgments will polute the fresh water in that 1/3 of the world, so there will be NO FRESH WATER. The only water fit to drink will be water from a store, but to buy it one must have the mark! Imagine! Thirst can be a very powerful motive to take the mark! So GREAT pressure will be put on people trying to save their head, but survive. I think most will not. Perhaps the best thing to do is just turn themselves it, and say, "I am a believer - I am turning myself in."

Make no mistake, it is not God's will that ANY of His church go through these times. He will rapture His church out before the week begins. However, I fear many who call themselves "Christian" will not be ready and will be left behind. Why? Many are not born again, so are not "in Christ."
 
lecoop said:
Make no mistake, it is not God's will that ANY of His church go through these times. He will rapture His church out before the week begins.
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That is illogical.
Mat 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
There would be no need to shorten those days of great tribulation if "the elect" (the Church) were not going through that tribulation.
 
lecoop said:
Absolutely!
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I agree. Which is why I stated the Church began with Abraham.

The ecclesia; The Holy nation.


because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5


Abraham is a prophet, in whom is the Spirit of Christ.



JLB
 
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