End Times confusing

[John 8:32]

the Great day of the Lord.

I see this as the Last Day of this age, Yom Kippur, when all of mankind have died. Some will die from warring with the Messiah, the rest will die from scorching. After that it's judgment time.

Um, I think that Yom Kippur is found in Lev 16.

 

[Joe Domingo]

the Great day of the Lord.

I see this as the Last Day of this age, Yom Kippur, when all of mankind have died. Some will die from warring with the Messiah, the rest will die from scorching. After that it's judgment time.

Um, I think that Yom Kippur is found in Lev 16.

Just as the spring Feast Days took on a Messianic expression as applied to Jesus' 1st advent, hence the Fall Feast Days take on a Messianic expression of his 2nd advent. Hence Yom Kippur being the ultimate day of Judgment by the Messiah. So of course I am alluding to the LAST Yom Kippur that would ever occur in this age/system/old earth etc etc

By your RULE I quote "Um, I think that Yom Kippur is found in Lev 16."

The timing of the events of Jesus' crucifixion, burial and resurrection as applied to those Feast Days is meaningless...

Edit: Am I far from the truth on Yom Kippur? Let's see...

What was Yom Kippur about? day of Atonement...

Dictionary
1.
satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) Theology . the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, especially as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.

Isn't that judgment?

The Israelites had to be checked this way every year! I'm sure they dreaded the day!

 

[John 8:32]

Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Of course you know that scapegoat is a poor translation of the Azazel goat which represents Satan whereas the goat for the Lord is Christ.

Christ:

Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Satan:

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Eugene]

NOTICE - All Preterism related doctrines have been purged from this thread. Those posts will be relocated in the Preterist Forum under the title of "End Times Confusing - Preterism". I attempted to allow discussion and questions that turned out not conducive to learning by those participating in Futurism discussion of End Times eschatology. You may continue your debate on the Preterist Forum at this link. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=51822

In order to better distinguish preterism and discussions regarding this doctrine of eschatology, we've re-established this sub-forum of the End Times Forum. All threads on the topic of preterism should be posted in this Preterism Discussions Forum.

Quoting Wikipedia: "Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth.

 

[Joe Domingo]

NOTICE - All Preterism related doctrines have been purged from this thread. Those posts will be relocated in the Preterist Forum under the title of "End Times Confusing - Preterism". I attempted to allow discussion and questions that turned out not conducive to learning by those participating in Futurism discussion of End Times eschatology. You may continue your debate on the Preterist Forum at this link. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=51822

In order to better distinguish preterism and discussions regarding this doctrine of eschatology, we've re-established this sub-forum of the End Times Forum. All threads on the topic of preterism should be posted in this Preterism Discussions Forum.

Quoting Wikipedia: "Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth.

Kudos to you Mod. I was troubled by the subject making its way into this thread.

 

[smaller]

Don't feel bad. I spent a couple decades plus, maybe as 'old' as you are, studying eschatology. Yes, it's purposefully difficult territory.

Picture a couple of large dumpsters full of various books on the subject and you'll get an idea what I went through just on this topic arena.

It is probably the most interesting piece of literature on the planet, bar none. The book of Revelation that is.

It's also worth putting aside immediately everything you've ever learned. I've seen people get sucked into various camps in that text and they never come out. They merely turn into end time drones in various costumes. Some costumes are called 'pre-mid and post trib,' preterist, amil, blah blah blah.

One thing I can say without any uncertainty is that they all have severe issues. Severe. It's an easy place to fall into a hole. So watch your own step.

s

I find that most things about the end times are confusing for people, getting 7 trumpets mixed up with 7 plagues and the Beast and the Anti-Christ.

I hate to admit that only until now in my mid 20s do i understand, or am beginning to understand what Ive been taught my whole life.

I understand the 7 trumpets and what they mean but I am not sure how the rapture fits into this. Do the 1st trumpet sound after the Rapture or is the rapture at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Is the 7th Trumpet end Christ's Second coming or is it only his Proclamation of his New Kingdom. Is the Rapture the second coming of Christ or will Christ not be present in the Rapture?

also I am confused about the role of the anti-christ and how he related to the Beast (the 8th King) Does the anti-christ simply get people to follow the beast?

And its also my understanding that the mark of the beast is only implemented after the Seven Plagues are released and the mark is used as a last ditch effort to cast out the remaining followers of Yahshua.It back fires in the face and their own economy fails and the people of the earth realize that Yahshua is providing divine protection to the remaining followers, so a universal death decree is signedto kill the 144,000but before it happens YahWeh speaks and causes an earthquake to destroy all structures on the planet. 45 Days pass and the world leaders realize the beast has deceived them and he is locked away.

I don't know what happens after that, does a new Holy City descend from the sky and a 1000 year reign of peace begin? after that 1000 years what happens?

I really REALLY don't want to be around for those 7 trumpets. Has anyone see the World Last Chance videos? I am not sure what church they are but they are very heavy on a Lunar Sabbath it seems.

 

[reba]

smaller

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

escape,

JBL and John 8:12 are laying down truth (oil) on you, it's called the Key of David that opens doors no man can close and closes doors no man can open for you have truth. (oil in your lamp)

truth is: Jesus Christ is only returning 1 time after the tribulation Matt 24:4-5,15,2131,mark 13:5-6,19-28,luke 21:8,19-29

Jesus warns before His coming false Christs will come claiming to be Him seducing many with signs and lying wonders as does paul also warn believers satan must come prior to Christ Jesus in II thess 2

there's a coming wedding to the KING of KINGS, if satan can make as many as he can "think" his false Christs are really Jesus how many will assume it's a pre trib rapture and follow after them when Jesus said not to? satan wants to trick the Lord's spiritual virgins into fornicating with him to defile their wedding garments as the Lord expects a virgin bride not whores of babylon.


Just as Jacob dressed up like easu to get his inheritance so satan and his angels dress up as if Jesus and God to take all they can by deception to the wrath of God



Jesus is the Lord!


1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[JLB]

Dear Escapefate:
The "end times" or "last days" will continue to be confusing to you unless you come to terms with a couple of facts.
There will be no rapture
The "last days" scripture speaks of are not in our present or future but nearly 2000 yrs in our past
We are not in the last days, we are in the "day of the Lord"...the age of the Kingdom of God.

I'm not trying to be rude but you need an entire "paradigm shift", most Christians do. If you are interested as to why I say these things we can discuss them.

Your brother, Hope of glory

There will be a Rapture, it come right after the resurrection.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

That is the rapture.

Please don't believe anyone who says this has happened.


JLB

 

[lecoop]

escape,

JBL and John 8:12 are laying down truth (oil) on you, it's called the Key of David that opens doors no man can close and closes doors no man can open for you have truth. (oil in your lamp)

truth is: Jesus Christ is only returning 1 time after the tribulation Matt 24:4-5,15,2131,mark 13:5-6,19-28,luke 21:8,19-29

Jesus warns before His coming false Christs will come claiming to be Him seducing many with signs and lying wonders as does paul also warn believers satan must come prior to Christ Jesus in II thess 2

there's a coming wedding to the KING of KINGS, if satan can make as many as he can "think" his false Christs are really Jesus how many will assume it's a pre trib rapture and follow after them when Jesus said not to? satan wants to trick the Lord's spiritual virgins into fornicating with him to defile their wedding garments as the Lord expects a virgin bride not whores of babylon.


Just as Jacob dressed up like easu to get his inheritance so satan and his angels dress up as if Jesus and God to take all they can by deception to the wrath of God



Jesus is the Lord!


1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

there's a coming wedding to the KING of KINGS, if satan can make as many as he can "think" his false Christs are really Jesus how many will assume it's a pre trib rapture and follow after them

Wow, wow, wow! it is hard to believe one could read this on a forum anywhere. Readers, can you see the fallacy here?

When one reads what John wrote of the marriage and supper, it takes place in HEAVEN. Those that attend are ALREADY THERE in heaven. Does this writer actually think there will be false Christs in heaven? The truth here is that NO ONE in heaven can be deceived about the wedding. There will be no deception there.

Next, the REAL rapture, the one Paul wrote of, is not something WE DECIDE OR CHOOSE the timing of. In one moment we are here, in the next, we are up in the air and moving quickly to meet Jesus in the clouds. The only thing believers have to do with this is to BELIEVE it (have faith in it) and then because of our faith, be watching. If someone chooses with their own will to MISS this pretrib rapture, I believe God will give them their desire, and they will be left behind. But I don't see even here that it would involve a false Christ; rather, it is people just refusing to believe in a pretrib rapture. How then, could a false christ "rapture" someone up into a cloud or anywhere else? Is that what this writer is suggesting?

The truth is, Jesus is coming very soon to take His bride away from earth, for His plan is to destroy the earth - and during that time He gets angry! HE set no appointment for us with His wrath, for HIS plan was to created an escape by way of rapture. However, that being said, I believe anyone can set their OWN appointment with His wrath, by not being diligent students of His word, not rightly dividing His word, and not understanding His word. If people believe in their heart that God's plan is for them to remain here during the 70th week, how will they be watching for His pretrib coming? The answer is, they cannot. Their heart would condemn them - for their belief would be that they would see the Beast first.

In a small way then, we do "choose" what we believe, and then our belief will determine if we are found worthy to escape all these things by way of rapture, of if we must suffer under the great pressure of the Beast. Lecoop

 

[lecoop]

One of my college professors taught us something very valuable. (Bible college). He said that God is a self revealing God, and over time has revealed more and more of Himself and His plans. Therefore, it would be wise to study the latest revelations on a subject to form doctrine, not earlier passages. Therefore, we should form our end time doctrine from the book of Revelation and then fill in missing pieces from the Olivet discourse and Old Testament passages. it is a fact, some Old Testament passages have 2000 years hidden in between two verses or even in one verse. Case in point, study both the Old and New on the passage Jesus read from Isaiah, and when He said, that today this is fullfilled. He did not finish the sentence! The rest of the quote has not happened yet.

Next, Revelation is written much like history, or written in advance. History is written chronologically, and so is Revelation. Don't EVER believe a theory that must rearrange Revelation. For the most part, anything you find in one chapter will come AFTER things in previous chapters. But there are a few parenthesis that are outside this rule. Don't believe anyone that tells you something in chapter 6 or chapter 11 is THE END. John does not get to the END of the 70th week until the 7th vial in chapter 16.

To give you a very limited outline, the 70th week is clearly marked by 7's. The 7th seal officially opens the 70th week, the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the 7th vial ends the week. Therefore, most of what is found from chapters 8 on to chapters 16 is the 70th week of Daniel.

There are many different theories of when the Day of the Lord begins in Revelation. To find the truth, just read the Old Testament passages about the Day and see where they begin to happen. For example, several of these passage say that the Day is a day of DESTRUCTION, that God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. So if you read chapter 7, it talks about the angels that have the power to destroy - but told to HOLD OFF that destruction until the sealing is completed. So WHERE do we find the first event from HEAVEN that causes destruction? It is at the first trumpet.

Finally, understand that the vision in chapters 4 & 5 are the CONTEXT of the first seals. You will never understand the timing of the first seals unless you correctly understand this vison. One key is to notice where the Holy Spirit is in chapter four, and where He goes in chapter 5. Note that many verses tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father, yet when John saw into the throne room in chapter 4, HE IS NOT THERE. Notice that in the search for one worthy, NO MAN WAS FOUND.

So ask yourself WHEN could someone have viewed the throne room and Jesus would NOT be there at His right hand? Of course, any time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Now notice what John saw enter the throne room, that was not there an instant before, and how the Holy Spirit's departure for earth is related to who JUST ARRIVED in the room. These are KEYS to tell us the timing of the first seals. So this vision in 4 and 5 shows us TIMING, and also the MOVEMENT of time.

As to WHEN the rapture takes place, look for a crowd so large no one can number them, - and then see if that is before or after the trumpets......you will find there is NOTHING for us to worry about! : -)))
Enjoy your study! Lecoop

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

escape,

JBL and John 8:12 are laying down truth (oil) on you, it's called the Key of David that opens doors no man can close and closes doors no man can open for you have truth. (oil in your lamp)

truth is: Jesus Christ is only returning 1 time after the tribulation Matt 24:4-5,15,2131,mark 13:5-6,19-28,luke 21:8,19-29

Jesus warns before His coming false Christs will come claiming to be Him seducing many with signs and lying wonders as does paul also warn believers satan must come prior to Christ Jesus in II thess 2

there's a coming wedding to the KING of KINGS, if satan can make as many as he can "think" his false Christs are really Jesus how many will assume it's a pre trib rapture and follow after them when Jesus said not to? satan wants to trick the Lord's spiritual virgins into fornicating with him to defile their wedding garments as the Lord expects a virgin bride not whores of babylon.


Just as Jacob dressed up like easu to get his inheritance so satan and his angels dress up as if Jesus and God to take all they can by deception to the wrath of God



Jesus is the Lord!


1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

there's a coming wedding to the KING of KINGS, if satan can make as many as he can "think" his false Christs are really Jesus how many will assume it's a pre trib rapture and follow after them

Wow, wow, wow! it is hard to believe one could read this on a forum anywhere. Readers, can you see the fallacy here?


*John can't change the fact that Jesus says His return and our gathering is after the tribulation matt 24:29-31, His teaching is not fallacy



When one reads what John wrote of the marriage and supper, it takes place in HEAVEN. Those that attend are ALREADY THERE in heaven. Does this writer actually think there will be false Christs in heaven?

*obviously lecoop hasn't read the warning Jesus Christ gives believers concerning the false Christs in matt 24:21-31 mark 13 luke 21. plese post the verse that says the marriage is in heaven? John says a voice from heaven says now is the marriage.



The truth here is that NO ONE in heaven can be deceived about the wedding. There will be no deception there.


*nope the deception is here on earth as this is where satan is kicked out of heaven to rev 12

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


those who fall away to satan's pre trib rapture are gathering as tares to be thrown into the winepress rev 14



Next, the REAL rapture, the one Paul wrote of,

* I thess 4:15 paul says "by the Lord's words" the Lord says His return and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs in matt 24,mark 13 lk 21 as does paul in II thess 2 who calls it the "working of satan"






is not something WE DECIDE OR CHOOSE the timing of. In one moment we are here, in the next, we are up in the air

* pre tribbers try to change the word AER g109 breath / g4151 spirit into g3772 sky as if we fly away, notice paul NEVER says Jesus' parousia is pre tribulation in I thess 4 and notice paul says the Lord's parousia is after the working of satan in II thess 2. IF one gets the timing wrong they may see the false Christs and follow after them doing exactly what Jesus Christ the Lord told us NOT to do luke 21:8




and moving quickly to meet Jesus in the clouds. The only thing believers have to do with this is to BELIEVE it (have faith in it) and then because of our faith, be watching.

* Jesus says believers must be betrayed,beaten and delivered up to death and for us not to worry for He will give us what to say during "that hour" by the Holy Spirit so even the gainsayers will be hushed up. luke 21 mark 13 matt 24



If someone chooses with their own will to MISS this pretrib rapture, I believe God will give them their desire, and they will be left behind.


* to be left behind=refusing the gathering of tares called the pre trib rapture, believers want to be left behind by satan's false Christs for the first gathering is for tares not the church matt 13:30,36-43,49-51 according to Jesus



But I don't see even here that it would involve a false Christ; rather, it is people just refusing to believe in a pretrib rapture. How then, could a false christ "rapture" someone up into a cloud or anywhere else? Is that what this writer is suggesting?


* amen we refuse to believe the pre trib rapture because Jesus says His rapture is after the tribulation:


Matthew 24:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



sadly many will see one of these false Christs and "assume" it's jesus based on false pre trib teaching and follow them right to satan



here's what satan wants people to think is a pre trib rapture (paul calls this the working of satan) :
Matthew 24:21-31

King James Version (KJV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Here's the post trib rapture Jesus Christ teaches:







29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





The truth is, Jesus is coming very soon to take His bride away from earth, for His plan is to destroy the earth - and during that time He gets angry! HE set no appointment for us with His wrath, for HIS plan was to created an escape by way of rapture. However, that being said, I believe anyone can set their OWN appointment with His wrath, by not being diligent students of His word, not rightly dividing His word, and not understanding His word. If people believe in their heart that God's plan is for them to remain here during the 70th week, how will they be watching for His pretrib coming? The answer is, they cannot. Their heart would condemn them - for their belief would be that they would see the Beast first.


* paul warns of deceivers who claim the Lord's Day is "at hand" :

2 Thessalonians 2:1-9

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.





3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



*pre trib storyliners focus on vs 7 to keep peoples attention off how paul warns against the any minute doctrine and teaches the same 2nd coming gathering as Jesus Christ does in matt 24 mark 13 and luke 21



8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, <--- matt 24:21-28






In a small way then, we do "choose" what we believe, and then our belief will determine if we are found worthy to escape all these things by way of rapture, of if we must suffer under the great pressure of the Beast. Lecoop


* Jesus tells us not to believe those who say He is here or there for His coming is after the tribulation, we can "choose" to believe Him OR one can follow after the false Christs to satan and mistakenly worship him and see what Jesus Christ will do to them.

pre trib rapture= purging of tares first from the wheat by false Christs and satan
post trib rapture=the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ and our gathering (wheat) to Him



Matthew 13:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Matthew 13:36-43

King James Version (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.


37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;


38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


when we shine from oil of truth in our lamps those who don't will want our oil


Matthew 13:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


there is a choice, fall for the deception and be purged or endure betrayal beatings and deliverance to death for Jesus Christ's names sake. I choose to stand up for Jesus.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

=lecoop;827665]One of my college professors taught us something very valuable. (Bible college). He said that God is a self revealing God, and over time has revealed more and more of Himself and His plans. Therefore, it would be wise to study the latest revelations on a subject to form doctrine, not earlier passages. Therefore, we should form our end time doctrine from the book of Revelation and then fill in missing pieces from the Olivet discourse and Old Testament passages. it is a fact, some Old Testament passages have 2000 years hidden in between two verses or even in one verse. Case in point, study both the Old and New on the passage Jesus read from Isaiah, and when He said, that today this is fullfilled. He did not finish the sentence! The rest of the quote has not happened yet.

* the gap is the time of the gentiles and the prince who must come is satan as the false God , better to read Jesus Christ and stick with His doctrine as no new doctrine needs to be formed for believers



Next, Revelation is written much like history, or written in advance. History is written chronologically, and so is Revelation. Don't EVER believe a theory that must rearrange Revelation. For the most part, anything you find in one chapter will come AFTER things in previous chapters. But there are a few parenthesis that are outside this rule. Don't believe anyone that tells you something in chapter 6 or chapter 11 is THE END. John does not get to the END of the 70th week until the 7th vial in chapter 16.

* revelation is the same events told several times, if one doesn't realize that then they will be confused when reading the same events being told over and over, nothing changes the Lord's words who says His coming is after the trib, those armies of satan gathered before the Lord returns are pre tribs fooled by false Christs to satan on the mount. (tares gathered first)


To give you a very limited outline, the 70th week is clearly marked by 7's. The 7th seal officially opens the 70th week, the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the 7th vial ends the week. Therefore, most of what is found from chapters 8 on to chapters 16 is the 70th week of Daniel.

There are many different theories of when the Day of the Lord begins in Revelation. To find the truth, just read the Old Testament passages about the Day and see where they begin to happen. For example, several of these passage say that the Day is a day of DESTRUCTION, that God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. So if you read chapter 7, it talks about the angels that have the power to destroy - but told to HOLD OFF that destruction until the sealing is completed. So WHERE do we find the first event from HEAVEN that causes destruction? It is at the first trumpet.

Finally, understand that the vision in chapters 4 & 5 are the CONTEXT of the first seals. You will never understand the timing of the first seals unless you correctly understand this vison. One key is to notice where the Holy Spirit is in chapter four, and where He goes in chapter 5. Note that many verses tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father, yet when John saw into the throne room in chapter 4, HE IS NOT THERE. Notice that in the search for one worthy, NO MAN WAS FOUND.

So ask yourself WHEN could someone have viewed the throne room and Jesus would NOT be there at His right hand? Of course, any time BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. Now notice what John saw enter the throne room, that was not there an instant before, and how the Holy Spirit's departure for earth is related to who JUST ARRIVED in the room. These are KEYS to tell us the timing of the first seals. So this vision in 4 and 5 shows us TIMING, and also the MOVEMENT of time.

As to WHEN the rapture takes place, look for a crowd so large no one can number them, - and then see if that is before or after the trumpets......you will find there is NOTHING for us to worry about! : -)))
Enjoy your study! Lecoop[



peace peace and there is no peace:


Ezekiel 13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The Lord saith it; albeit I have not spoken?




8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God.9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.


14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord God.17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,18 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.








21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

 

[JohnD]

What confuses folks the most is coming at the thing from the wrong perspective. To do so would be like tightening a flat head screw with a butter knife, or to chisel a piece of wood with a hammer and flat head screw driver... it doesn't get the job done right. And there's a lot of damage.

We must remember that the end times are about the Jewish people. Getting them to finally, officially believe in Jesus as their Messiah will take the Great Tribulation culminating with their outcry to Jesus as a last of the last resorts (since nothing else will have worked) to save them from the Armageddon scenario of the world coming down on them to annihilate them.

Some may reason this that or the other, but when it comes right down to it, no other reason for the Great Tribulation fits the benevolent nature of God. Why have a Great Tribulation if it's just to whip up on the devil and the people who oppose Christ? That's what hell is for.

You put the Jewish people back into the equation and the answers start to come clear and make sense.

The three (major) eschatology camps believe and can quote scripture to support their view that the rapture will take place PRE, MID, or POST Tribulation. This never made sense to me how three opposing / contradictory camps of prophetic future events could all quote scripture... since scripture does not contradict itself...

The Spirit showed how all three camps are essentially correct, it is the setting that all three got wrong. The setting is the 70th Week of Daniel. What they get wrong is this 7-year period is not one tribulation period but two 3 1/2 year tribulation periods. This is why it is divided in so many ways in scripture:

1260 days (3.5 years)
42 months (3.5 years)
time, times, plus half a time (3.5 years).

The tribulation in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel will be the persecution of the believers in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:14-17 (KJV)
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


This would seem to say Messianic Jews... but harkening back to the study on Genesis 3:15 speaking about the same woman, "her seed" is not a thing of nature. Man has seed women do not. This is a reference to Christians (all who believe).



Revelation 13:5-10 (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


The woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is Israel. Verify the description in Revelation 12 with Genesis 37:9-10. We who believe in the Jewish Messiah are her seed (whether or not we were born Jewish). Not knowing or accepting this is also what clouds the waters of our understanding these doctrines. Suffice it to say a Gentile born believer in Jesus is not a physical Jew. But he or she is a Spirit Jew of the Spiritual House of Israel (Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, Galatians 6:13-16, Galatians 4:19-26, Philippians 3:3 etc.). I will do a post on this in the Bible study area.


Christians and Messianics will be the global personas non grata. The beast will come in on a wave of global acceptance and adoration and all humanity has to do is pledge their allegiance to him by accepting the mark 666. All will accept it except for Christians and Messianics. And since none can buy or sell without it, it is used as a tracking device to hunt down these refuseniks.



The Bible does give a very strong set of clues as to whom the beast will be, and if this is correct, he will be able to prove scientifically something miraculous about himself... and this is how the skeptics and atheists and people from other religions will be won over to the religion the beast will purport is truth.



Old Testament Judaism.


Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Jesus said to the Jews:


John 5:43 (KJV)
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


"If" in the Greek (ean) can be translated "though" and would make the passage clearer...


I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: though another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


In Daniel 11:36-37 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 the beast clearly exalts himself (echoed in Isaiah 14:9-20).


But while the Christians remain to hunt down, the beast will plow with the Lord's heifer. There are many clues about this in scripture, for example why would Jesus warn about the abomination of desolation desecrating the temple praying it will not be on a sabbath day? Keeping sabbath has never taken precedent over fight or flight in all Jewish history. On the sabbath at war with Jericho the marched around the city six more times than they did daily the six days prior.
And fought the battle on sabbath.


The only way Jesus' comment in Matthew 24:20 would make sense is the Jews who would enforce sabbath law would be in power and see no harm in the beast approaching the temple to park his carcase on the mercy seat in the holy of holies and claim to be God above every god...


A misunderstood prophecy about the ten kings who give the beast their power is in:


Zechariah 8:37 (KJV)
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


And when the beast perceives Christians are wiped out, that is when he reneges on his covenant with the Jews. According to Daniel 12:11-12, the Christians who survive to that point will not be raptured for another 105 days... but they will be so deep in hiding that they will be believed annihilated already.



The beast makes his ascent to the temple and from there reneges on his covenant with the Jews and puts an end to temple sacrifice...



There is a prophecy about this too.


Zechariah 5:5-11 (KJV)
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.
7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.


This is the only mention of female angels. Their wings are those of a unclean bird.

The origin of their cargo flight is temple mount Jerusalem. Their destination the plains of Babylon. The cargo... the woman who once rode the beast.


Then the Jews will become the refuseniks the Christians once were and this is what culminates in the worlds' armies drawing down on Israel in the valley of Megiddo...



Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



1290 days from the end of history
1335 days into the 70th Week of Daniel (2520 days long).

This is not date setting. There will be no actual way to determine what day the 70th Week of Daniel began until the middle of it on day 1230 when the beast desecrates the temple.

Click on to enlarge:


View attachment 3369


So...

the rapture will take place

PRE- Great Tribulation
MID- 70th Week of Daniel (which is not traditional mid trib since that view teaches the 70th week of Daniel is one 7-year tribulation period)
POST- believer's tribulation / time of the faith and patience of the saints

All three camps were correct only they misunderstood the setting of the 70th Week of Daniel.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

=JohnD;

We must remember that the end times are about the Jewish people.

Hi John ,
Just a few thoughts on some of your points:


* tribulation of false Christs claiming to be Jesus concerns people of all nations,kindred and tongues:


*Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11-12
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Revelation 7:9
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



Why have a Great Tribulation if it's just to whip up on the devil and the people who oppose Christ? That's what hell is for.


*Matthew 13:27-30 (KJV)
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 24:21-28
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


*2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


You put the Jewish people back into the equation and the answers start to come clear and make sense.

*see rev 7 Judeans not the only ones who make it out of the tribulation.
when satan is kicked out of heaven:


Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

*see II thess 2,Dan 11

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


* the communion to Christ ceases because many will think He's already here when the false Christs come





So...

the rapture will take place

PRE- Great Tribulation
MID- 70th Week of Daniel (which is not traditional mid trib since that view teaches the 70th week of Daniel is one 7-year tribulation period)
POST- believer's tribulation / time of the faith and patience of the saints

All three camps were correct only they misunderstood the setting of the 70th Week of Daniel.


*one can believe Jesus Christ concerning the rapture or take their chances with other doctrines:
Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 61:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

 

[CORE]

End Times confusing

Of course it's confusing...they've been going on for 2000 years.

people need to get over themselves and just live the life God has set before them...no need to be a fortune teller.

 

[reba]

Sorta agree Core. Though the topic is very interesting, how it effects folks is another whole topic

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

End Times confusing

Of course it's confusing...they've been going on for 2000 years.

people need to get over themselves and just live the life God has set before them...no need to be a fortune teller.

Revelation 3:15-19

King James Version (KJV)

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.




Matthew 8:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.


Matthew 13:41-43

King James Version (KJV)

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feedmysheep.




maybe some should warn their brother & sisters so they won't be thrown into the fire ,

 

[CORE]

maybe some should warn their brother & sisters so they won't be thrown into the fire , IF they love them.

..and that's fine as long as one doesn't make silly predictions as to the exact time the end is coming. To what benefit does it serve to make theses predictions? It's no different than the boy who cried wolf - these false predictions/lies only dampen the truly sincere warnings.

 

[reba]