End Times confusing

[jasoncran]

yes [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] it is. I have learned a lot from simply trying to see what the bible does say . it forces ya to jump all over the bible. all to conclude I don't know a lot.

 

[lecoop]

=JohnD;

We must remember that the end times are about the Jewish people.

Hi John ,
Just a few thoughts on some of your points:


* tribulation of false Christs claiming to be Jesus concerns people of all nations,kindred and tongues:


*Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11-12
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Revelation 7:9
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



Why have a Great Tribulation if it's just to whip up on the devil and the people who oppose Christ? That's what hell is for.


*Matthew 13:27-30 (KJV)
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 24:21-28
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


*2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


You put the Jewish people back into the equation and the answers start to come clear and make sense.

*see rev 7 Judeans not the only ones who make it out of the tribulation.
when satan is kicked out of heaven:


Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

*see II thess 2,Dan 11

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


* the communion to Christ ceases because many will think He's already here when the false Christs come





So...

the rapture will take place

PRE- Great Tribulation
MID- 70th Week of Daniel (which is not traditional mid trib since that view teaches the 70th week of Daniel is one 7-year tribulation period)
POST- believer's tribulation / time of the faith and patience of the saints

All three camps were correct only they misunderstood the setting of the 70th Week of Daniel.


*one can believe Jesus Christ concerning the rapture or take their chances with other doctrines:
Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 61:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

I am not sure all of that was a help or a hindrance. Let's talk about Paul's rapture, so we know what we are talking about. Was Paul pre - mid - or post?"

We don't have to guess, for Paul TELLS US. We just need to read chapter 5, where Paul tells us the TIMING of His rapture. He tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming, at a time of peace and safety. At that suddenly, sinners get one result and believers get a different result.

First, we as believers get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him."
Sinners get the "sudden destruction" that is the SIGN for the Day of the Lord.

Where is this in Revelation? The sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. Note well the last verse in this chapter, "the day of His wrath has come." But in chapter 7, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN. They were the great crowd no one could number, safe in heaven, before John starts the week. After the rapture and the sealing of the 144,000 THEN it is time for the DAY and for the WEEK to begin. They begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. This is the FIRST judgment in the book.

So Paul is very much PRETRIB.

Lecoop

 

[JLB]

=JohnD;

We must remember that the end times are about the Jewish people.

Hi John ,
Just a few thoughts on some of your points:


* tribulation of false Christs claiming to be Jesus concerns people of all nations,kindred and tongues:


*Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11-12
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Revelation 7:9
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



Why have a Great Tribulation if it's just to whip up on the devil and the people who oppose Christ? That's what hell is for.


*Matthew 13:27-30 (KJV)
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 24:21-28
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


*2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


You put the Jewish people back into the equation and the answers start to come clear and make sense.

*see rev 7 Judeans not the only ones who make it out of the tribulation.
when satan is kicked out of heaven:


Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

*see II thess 2,Dan 11

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


* the communion to Christ ceases because many will think He's already here when the false Christs come





So...

the rapture will take place

PRE- Great Tribulation
MID- 70th Week of Daniel (which is not traditional mid trib since that view teaches the 70th week of Daniel is one 7-year tribulation period)
POST- believer's tribulation / time of the faith and patience of the saints

All three camps were correct only they misunderstood the setting of the 70th Week of Daniel.


*one can believe Jesus Christ concerning the rapture or take their chances with other doctrines:
Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 61:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

I am not sure all of that was a help or a hindrance. Let's talk about Paul's rapture, so we know what we are talking about. Was Paul pre - mid - or post?"

We don't have to guess, for Paul TELLS US. We just need to read chapter 5, where Paul tells us the TIMING of His rapture. He tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming, at a time of peace and safety. At that suddenly, sinners get one result and believers get a different result.

First, we as believers get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him."
Sinners get the "sudden destruction" that is the SIGN for the Day of the Lord.

Where is this in Revelation? The sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. Note well the last verse in this chapter, "the day of His wrath has come." But in chapter 7, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN. They were the great crowd no one could number, safe in heaven, before John starts the week. After the rapture and the sealing of the 144,000 THEN it is time for the DAY and for the WEEK to begin. They begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. This is the FIRST judgment in the book.

So Paul is very much PRETRIB.

Lecoop

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4


Paul clearly teaches us that the resurrection and Rapture that he has just discussed is the Day of The Lord, and that the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christians.

So the Day of The Lord is not "immeninent" for us, but only for them.

The Day of the Lord is described by Jesus as -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This event is the Day of The Lord.

He only comes back once at the end of the age.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

He will raise us up on the last Day, not 7 years before the last Day.


JLB

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

maybe some should get over their own selves & warn their brother & sisters so they won't be thrown into the fire ,.

..and that's fine as long as one doesn't make silly predictions as to the exact time the end is coming. To what benefit does it serve to make theses predictions? It's no different than the boy who cried wolf - these false predictions/lies only dampen the truly sincere warnings.

Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering together is after the tribulation in matt 24:29-31, not silly and the benefit is because He said to feed His sheep as a Christian should.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

I am not sure all of that was a help or a hindrance. Let's talk about Paul's rapture, so we know what we are talking about. Was Paul pre - mid - or post?"


*paul didn't die on the cross, it's not "his" rapture but the Lord Jesus Christ's who says HIS coming and our gathering is after the tribulation which is what paul teaches in II thess 2:1-12


We don't have to guess, for Paul TELLS US. We just need to read chapter 5, where Paul tells us the TIMING of His rapture. He tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming, at a time of peace and safety. At that suddenly, sinners get one result and believers get a different result.

*paul won't be raptureing anyone, Jesus Christ says HIS gathering is after the trib again as does paul who warns let no man decieve us for the Lord's Day shall not come except the falling away first and satan is revealed to be worhiped and paul repeats in vs. 8-9 the Lord is him who's coming is AFTER the working of satan.



First, we as believers get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him."
Sinners get the "sudden destruction" that is the SIGN for the Day of the Lord.

Where is this in Revelation?

a.Jesus says in matt 13:30 the tares (children of satan get gathered first) , when the false Christs come claiming to be Jesus many will "think" it's a "pre trib" rapture and be tares purged from the wheat
b.Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs matt 24:21-31 so I choose to stick with His post trib rapture teaching
c.rev 19 when Jesus Christ returns with His armies for we who are alive and remain we will all change to spiritual bodies, the armies of satan at armegeddon are those who follow after the false Christs and are tricked out of their inheritence by fornicating with satan by falling for his early harvest lies


The sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. Note well the last verse in this chapter, "the day of His wrath has come."

*Wrath for those taken first by satan's early harvest lies
*1000yr reign for we who refuse the pre trib lie of satan and his claims to be God

But in chapter 7, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN.

*no Jpohn saw the saved dead who die and resurrect to Jesus everyday making up the armies of heaven who will return WITH Jesus I thess 4:13-14,jude 1:14-15,rev 19

They were the great crowd no one could number, safe in heaven, before John starts the week.

*keep reading and you see these are they who make it out of the great tribulation from every nation,tongue and kindred, this is we who refuse to be gathered with satan and his false Christs and rather wait for Jesus Christ who said He comes after the trib.


After the rapture and the sealing of the 144,000 THEN it is time for the DAY and for the WEEK to begin. They begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. This is the FIRST judgment in the book.

So Paul is very much PRETRIB.

Lecoop

no you concluded that paul is pre trib, paul NEVER once says Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation and most importantly Jesus Christ whom I serve says his coming is after the tribulation as does paul in II thess 2 so thanks but I reject the pre trib rapture as a lie from satan to fool me away from the wedding to Jesus Christ by having me defile my wedding garment.

 

[JLB]

I am not sure all of that was a help or a hindrance. Let's talk about Paul's rapture, so we know what we are talking about. Was Paul pre - mid - or post?"


*paul didn't die on the cross, it's not "his" rapture but the Lord Jesus Christ's who says HIS coming and our gathering is after the tribulation which is what paul teaches in II thess 2:1-12


We don't have to guess, for Paul TELLS US. We just need to read chapter 5, where Paul tells us the TIMING of His rapture. He tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming, at a time of peace and safety. At that suddenly, sinners get one result and believers get a different result.

*paul won't be raptureing anyone, Jesus Christ says HIS gathering is after the trib again as does paul who warns let no man decieve us for the Lord's Day shall not come except the falling away first and satan is revealed to be worhiped and paul repeats in vs. 8-9 the Lord is him who's coming is AFTER the working of satan.



First, we as believers get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him."
Sinners get the "sudden destruction" that is the SIGN for the Day of the Lord.

Where is this in Revelation?

a.Jesus says in matt 13:30 the tares (children of satan get gathered first) , when the false Christs come claiming to be Jesus many will "think" it's a "pre trib" rapture and be tares purged from the wheat
b.Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs matt 24:21-31 so I choose to stick with His post trib rapture teaching
c.rev 19 when Jesus Christ returns with His armies for we who are alive and remain we will all change to spiritual bodies, the armies of satan at armegeddon are those who follow after the false Christs and are tricked out of their inheritence by fornicating with satan by falling for his early harvest lies


The sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. Note well the last verse in this chapter, "the day of His wrath has come."

*Wrath for those taken first by satan's early harvest lies
*1000yr reign for we who refuse the pre trib lie of satan and his claims to be God

But in chapter 7, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN.

*no Jpohn saw the saved dead who die and resurrect to Jesus everyday making up the armies of heaven who will return WITH Jesus I thess 4:13-14,jude 1:14-15,rev 19

They were the great crowd no one could number, safe in heaven, before John starts the week.

*keep reading and you see these are they who make it out of the great tribulation from every nation,tongue and kindred, this is we who refuse to be gathered with satan and his false Christs and rather wait for Jesus Christ who said He comes after the trib.


After the rapture and the sealing of the 144,000 THEN it is time for the DAY and for the WEEK to begin. They begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. This is the FIRST judgment in the book.

So Paul is very much PRETRIB.

Lecoop

no you concluded that paul is pre trib, paul NEVER once says Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation and most importantly Jesus Christ whom I serve says his coming is after the tribulation as does paul in II thess 2 so thanks but I reject the pre trib rapture as a lie from satan to fool me away from the wedding to Jesus Christ by having me defile my wedding garment.

 

[Randy]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

but the 4th Trumpet is also 1/3 of the light of the moon and sun darkened.

Zech 14:6-7
On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day
and night. When evening comes, there will be light

I would state the 4th trumpet is not that day. The 5th trumpet gives the keys of the abyss to satan. The angel of the abyss (the beast that comes out of the sea) is released from imprisonment. At the end of the testimony in Rev 11 (1260 days) the beast kills those two witnesses. Rev 11 is one last warning (a sign that can't be mistaken) and if anyone has any shred of faith on earth at that time they will believe and give glory to God. But for those that still don't believe and repent God has had enough and a powerful delusion will enter the world at that time and the whole world will be deceived into following the beast. Those who are wise and know their God will not be deceived by the beast. If anyone willfully takes the mark of the beast their place will be the 2nd death. The beast that comes out of the earth also called the false prophet (a man) will act in behalf of abaddon or apollyon. (the angel of the abyss) The bowl judgements are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness and they are the last of Gods judgments and with them Gods wrath is complete. Rev 15:1 The beasts reign is 42 months. Jesus returns. 2nd coming Rev 16:15 2Thess 2:8 The world is caught by surprise because they have not believed in the Fathers message.

 

[reba]

Take your personal battles to PM they are not welcome in the threads. Moderator.. deletes will be done...

 

[farouk]

I think 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2) is a good watchword for end times issues.

Blessings.