end times discussion on the kingdom of christ

[destiny]

Drew, were you taught those views or did you come to believe what you do based on your own personal studies?

 

[Drew]

Drew, were you taught those views or did you come to believe what you do based on your own personal studies?

A combination of my own personal study and talking with others. This kind of thing is not "taught" in my present church, although I know that the Minister agrees that Jesus is presently King.

 

[Drew]

then answer how, we have "many" interpretations of those mysterious grey areas of the bible. if we are truly the one to assist christ in his setting up the kingdom , wheres the word for word plan?

.
Word for word plan? Why would you expect a word for word plan? Are you given a word for word plan for your personal life in the Bible? We are given plenty of general guidance for how we are to behave in respect to the “powers that beâ€. Here, in a text that has, in this very thread, been misinterpreted as suggesting separation of church and state, we have a teaching as to what our general comportment should be in respect to implementing the kingdom:

Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43"But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

The above is a good example of the kind of guidance as to how Christians are to “do governmentâ€.

Besides, we are promised that the Holy Spirit will play a role here: From John 16:

Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Jesus is teaching that it is specifically through the gift of the Holy Spirit that the world will be convicted. Who is the Spirit given to? All people? No. The Spirit is given solely to the church. Who is "the world" that will be convicted by it? Is it just "other sinners as individuals"?

Not likely. Jesus must certainly include the very institutions and systems that men have constructed - that is, the institutions of governance. After all, Jesus has spent the better part of His ministry announcing the kingdom of God is here. How odd would it be for Jesus to announce a kingdom whose authority did not include the very institutions that govern society. How is that a kingdom?

One of the roles of the church is to challenge the world, including its institutions, with the gospel. And the gospel, despite widespread misunderstanding, is not "you can be saved by faith in Jesus". It is a proclamation of a new King just as Paul says in Romans 1:3-4. Jesus is now enthroned over all - not just our "inner lives" but all.

The Holy Spirit is given to the church. And the church then is the vehicle by which the world is convicted. So while it is of course the job of the church to “win soulsâ€, it is no less the job of the church to call implement the kingdom – to advocate for the enshrinement of kingdom of God values in government.

 

[jasoncran]

i will disagree with your conclusion as i believe that they are inconclusive, how many people say that the holy spirit lead them to say this or do that, sometimes it's dead on other times, nah, your a litlle off.

 

[jasoncran]

what if these goverments that are christians declare war on a secular one? the secular is doing much bad and hasnt attacked anyone nation just supresses it own people.

i ask you this as we christian would have make these decisions.

 

[Drew]

i will disagree with your conclusion as i believe that they are inconclusive, how many people say that the holy spirit lead them to say this or do that, sometimes it's dead on other times, nah, your a litlle off.

I am not saying anything more than that we are promised the leading of the Holy Spirit. To disagree with that puts one outside orthodoxy.

You raise the valid point that some people "claim" the Spirit's leading and that claim turns out to be wrong. I could not agree more.

But Jesus says what He says - the Spirit will convict the world in respect to sin and righteousness. The fact that some people "fake" the leading of the Spirit is their problem.

 

[Drew]

what if these goverments that are christians declare war on a secular one? the secular is doing much bad and hasnt attacked anyone nation just supresses it own people.

i ask you this as we christian would have make these decisions.

No "Christian nation" will declare war on another nation.

I am not sure what your point is. That governments should not be subject to Jesus? Well, we need some kind of government. So what is it going to be? Do you honestly believe that secular governments never suppress their own people? Or declare war without justification?

 

[jasoncran]

so if another nation that is islam( iran) begin mass executions of political dissidents ie those who want to open up freer form of government that a christian nation should go oh well the lord will handle it, and stand back.

what if the police did that? can you watch a beheading of inncocent and not care? or the rape and murder of innocents as well, sometimes diplomacy ends and war must be embraced.

 

[Drew]

so if another nation that is islam( iran) begin mass executions of political dissidents ie those who want to open up freer form of government that a christian nation should go oh well the lord will handle it, and stand back.

Perhaps I should not have made the statement I made. The question of the legitimacy of war for the Christian is a complex enough issue on its own.

My point is that there no reason why Christians should withdraw from the domain of government and concede it to the secularists.

Someone is going to govern. Don't you think it would be best if those in goverment governed according to the Kingdom of God principles that Jesus teaches?

 

[jasoncran]

yes, it relates, drew history and human nature says otherwise,ultamite power ultimately corrupts. we can check each other yes, but we so are just as vulnerable to failure as the lost are.

if i did work then england would be a fine example as they have a state church that used to run the whole government and it persucted many that left for america.

 

[Drew]

yes, it relates, drew history and human nature says otherwise,ultamite power ultimately corrupts. we can check each other yes, but we so are just as vulnerable to failure as the lost are.

I don't see your argument here. Somebody is going to govern. Surely the Christian will be less susceptible to the corruption to which you refer.

if i did work then england would be a fine example as they have a state church that used to run the whole government and it persucted many that left for america.

England is not a good example. On paper, they do not separate church from state, but in practice they do.

 

[jasoncran]

yes, it relates, drew history and human nature says otherwise,ultamite power ultimately corrupts. we can check each other yes, but we so are just as vulnerable to failure as the lost are.

I don't see your argument here. Somebody is going to govern. Surely the Christian will be less susceptible to the corruption to which you refer.

if i did work then england would be a fine example as they have a state church that used to run the whole government and it persucted many that left for america.

England is not a good example. On paper, they do not separate church from state, but in practice they do.

not really , are the a few that would yes, but many will fall as that is a large tempation to resist,as money and power will fall on you every where. it would take alot of holy ghost seeking to this and many would but they need the support of the local people.

research american histrory and you will see that this has been attempted here and has had some sucess but not like what you say.
i suggest looking up dr.james dobson they do a lot of thanksgiving specails and other showing of the christian origins of the the u.s.

reread the speech given by fdr after pearl harbor, when truman came into office , regeans quotes on god. and the founders. it's all there just stay away from the secular revsionist.
i do remember the bible in school, and the ten commandments and the daily prayers in school.

 

[researcher]

100%

God doesn't talk to you? As in dreams, visions, word of knowledge, audible voice etc?

Oh sure, God talks to me. Through His word specifically. Never had a dream. Never had a vision. Never has He spoken to me with an audible voice.

I can assure you that if you think God spoke to you that we are living in the age after Christ's second advent then that spirit is not from God.

If God has never said anything to you, never given you any kind of revelation from the Holy Spirit, how would you know whether or not anything anyone says about scripture is true? What you've just said is that all of your understanding of scripture comes from your own mind, or from other's, but not from Him. Honestly, that's a weird place to be in. Your experience should not be the norm for most Christians according to the Bible. God is the one who shows his servants things, not the other way around. :gah

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; for the Lord shall give thee understanding in all things.

1Jn 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[RND]

If God has never said anything to you, never given you any kind of revelation from the Holy Spirit, how would you know whether or not anything anyone says about scripture is true?

I never said God has never spoken to me. I said He has never used dreams, vision or audible voices.

What you've just said is that all of your understanding of scripture comes from your own mind, or from other's, but not from Him.

That's your "feeling."

Honestly, that's a weird place to be in. Your experience should not be the norm for most Christians according to the Bible. God is the one who shows his servants things, not the other way around. :gah

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; for the Lord shall give thee understanding in all things.

1Jn 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

None of these verses say anything about God teaching anyone His word through visions. dreams, or audible voices.

You quoted John 16:13 which is great. What is truth?

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Where does one find the word of truth?

 

[researcher]

If God has never said anything to you, never given you any kind of revelation from the Holy Spirit, how would you know whether or not anything anyone says about scripture is true?

I never said God has never spoken to me. I said He has never used dreams, vision or audible voices.

What you've just said is that all of your understanding of scripture comes from your own mind, or from other's, but not from Him.

That's your "feeling."

[quote:m1h3zso8]Honestly, that's a weird place to be in. Your experience should not be the norm for most Christians according to the Bible. God is the one who shows his servants things, not the other way around. :gah

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; for the Lord shall give thee understanding in all things.

1Jn 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

None of these verses say anything about God teaching anyone His word through visions. dreams, or audible voices.

You quoted John 16:13 which is great. What is truth?

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Where does one find the word of truth?[/quote:m1h3zso8]

What is truth?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the truth. What is Jesus?

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

How does/do the Spirit(s) communicate?

Gen 46:2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

Gen 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.

 

[veteran]

Christ Jesus ascended to the right hand of The Father after His Resurrection. I think we're all agreed on that. But is He literally reigning here on earth? No. And the difference between what the kingdom now on earth folks want to think about His Kingdom established on earth and what God's Word reveals is miles apart. There's no getting around the abundant Scripture evidence for Christ's Kingdom manifested upon this earth with Him here in Person with us. And I mean His physical appearance, just as He appeared to His disciples after His Resurrection. Remember, Thomas had to actually touch Christ's Resurrected Body before he would believe The Father had raised our Lord Jesus from the dead.

This world, today in the flesh, is not His Kingdom manifested on earth.

Moreover, per 2 Peter 3, this world we're in today is preserved unto DESTRUCTION by fire. How is it then, if this world today is Christ's Kingdom having come already, that God is going to destroy this world by fire? The answer to that is simple. The kingdoms of this world have yet to become the kingdoms of God and of His Christ. Revelation 11:15 is yet to occur.

There is a concerted efforted today by globalists to change Christian Doctrine per The Bible and replace it with the idea of a Global Church. And the idea of Global I speak of involves World Socialist doctrines, not Christian Doctrine from The Bible.

If you want to look into that idea more, here's a link:

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/globalchurch.htm

That is where false doctrines that Christ's second coming is past, that the resurrection of the dead is past, and the lie that Christ's Kingdom is NOW established upon this earth with Christ only ruling from Heaven, is coming from. Those are SOCIALIST doctrines, WORLD GLOBALIST doctrines, not Christian Doctrine from The Bible. That is the trick Satan is trying to play among the Churches today.

There's to be literal earth changes on this earth that is hard-linked to the timing of Christ's second coming, events on earth that have NEVER happenned to this day. Even if the Jews build another temple in Jerusalem today, their version is still not going to fit the dimensions and conditions of the FUTURE milennium Temple Christ is to rule from on earth per Ezekiel 40 forward. How will they even try to fake the River of Ezekiel 47 which flows out from Christ's milennium santuary to feed other waters on the earth, and the many trees on either side of it? They won't be able to do that.

This is why it's so important to stay in ALL of God's Word today. The Globalist's Church is counting on you not studying enough of God's Word to know those kind of differences that are written.
.

 

[veteran]

On that same note, what about the resurrection of the dead and our gathering to Christ Jesus when He comes? What true Christian is NOT aware that the time of the resurrection of the dead and our being gathered to Christ literally is also hard-linked with Christ's second coming, and that it has not happenned yet? Those Scripture evidences in God's Word are not difficult, but so easy even a little child can understand it.

Will those same folks who falsely infer that Christ will only rule from Heaven spiritually also say that His first coming was only spiritual, and that He actually never came to this earth in the flesh to die on the cross? Believing that Christ's second coming to this earth is not a bodily return (in His Resurrected Body that Thomas touched and felt), is like saying His first coming to this earth to die on the cross didn't LITERALLY happen, but only was in the spiritual sense too. Who are these people who want us to think Christ's return to this earth is not a bodily return?

Would it be those who really DON'T WANT CHRIST JESUS to physically return to this earth and take de facto rule? It sure sounds like that's what they really want to happen. Too bad, Christ's return to this earth is going to occur literally like God's Word says, His feet touching upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem on earth (Zech.14). One of the poster's on this very thread has denied that Zechariah 14 Scripture by trying to say it has already happenned.

Who can't figure out what those kingdom now folks are trying to do here? Who has failed to notice they deny most Scripture accounts of Christ's bodily return, like the Zechariah 14 example? And I say most, because there's probably some Bible examples they have yet to find a way to add their doctrines to. Don't be deceived by them brethren, and what they're really up to.
.

 

[RND]

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the truth. What is Jesus?

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

How does/do the Spirit(s) communicate?

Gen 46:2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

Gen 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is truth.

Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Drew]

Christ Jesus ascended to the right hand of The Father after His Resurrection. I think we're all agreed on that. But is He literally reigning here on earth? No. And the difference between what the kingdom now on earth folks want to think about His Kingdom established on earth and what God's Word reveals is miles apart. There's no getting around the abundant Scripture evidence for Christ's Kingdom manifested upon this earth with Him here in Person with us. And I mean His physical appearance, just as He appeared to His disciples after His Resurrection. Remember, Thomas had to actually touch Christ's Resurrected Body before he would believe The Father had raised our Lord Jesus from the dead.

Well obviously Jesus is not reigning in person, but He is still an enthroned monarch. You have been presented with many arguments to this effect, none of which has been successfully countered.

Disagree? Then just say so, and I will repost the relevant arguments and we can go at them again.

Let me be crystal clear in what I am saying: At least 5, and likely more arguments have been provided that Jesus presently reigns. And none of them have been successfully challenged.

Now if you want to contest what I am saying, then I will repost the arguments and you can show me where they are mistaken.

 

[Drew]

That is where false doctrines that Christ's second coming is past, that the resurrection of the dead is past, and the lie that Christ's Kingdom is NOW established upon this earth with Christ only ruling from Heaven, is coming from. Those are SOCIALIST doctrines, WORLD GLOBALIST doctrines, not Christian Doctrine from The Bible. That is the trick Satan is trying to play among the Churches today.

Well I will go with what Jesus says:

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus is clearly saying that through His own work, the kingdom of God has already been established on Earth. So, veteran, when did that kingdom get "revoked"? When did Jesus say "You know that Kingdom that I told you I was King of, well guess what, it has disappeared"?

Of course it was never "revoked". In fact, post-resurrection Jesus tells us what His status is:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth
Well call me a "socialist" if you like. But one thing is crystal clear from this another posts - the position that Jesus is enthroned as a king of the world is the Biblical position.

Can you challenge this? Of course you can't. So what do you do? Suggest that those who hold the Biblical position are socialist minions of Satan.