end times discussion on the kingdom of christ

[jasoncran]

i severly disagree with you interprations of the end times of christ and coming kingdom.

i wish i could go into more of this, but i see no point in it now, interesting discussion though. no hard feelings drew.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree with Drew. Jesus does rule and reign now through His Body.
The marriage has taken place, and we only wait for His coming to have the marriage be consummated.

Jesus is coming again when the earth is ripe for the harvest.
At which time comes the judgment and the new heavens and earth.
The Word does not speak of a future kingdom on this earth as premillennialists claim, but an eternal kingdom wherein dwells only righteousness. The fact that some don't recognize the Kingdom of God as real at this present time forces them to come up with a future kingdom here on earth that is not eternal...but merely a thousand years. As believers, we have already entered into the eternal kingdom. We wait only for our Lord's second coming when He will give His church it's glorified body...thus the consummation of the marriage of the Christ to His bride.

Right now, the tares grow together with the wheat...our inheritance will be delivered up at our Lord's return. Not a partial inheritance, either. Not a thousand years where the unrighteous will live for a time and then follow after satan.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[jasoncran]

yes, i see that, but he(drew) talks about us(presently) forming a christain theocracy and that will help the kingdom of the lord come quicker there's another topic on this called kindgom theology by ret.

 

[glorydaz]

yes, i see that, but he(drew) talks about us(presently) forming a christain theocracy and that will help the kingdom of the lord come quicker there's another topic on this called kindgom theology by ret.

I'm not sure about that...I'll read the thread, but I do see Christians failing to do what they should be doing simply because they think they have to wait until after the Lord comes again. They don't realize that we're ruling with Him now...this is last chance unbelievers will have to come to the Lord. Too many in the church fail to realize the power we have to influence the ungodly world we live in.

 

[jasoncran]

that's drew overall phisophy, i have asked and observed that from him. we do underestimate our influece, if we live the life ere man and god, many will come.

 

[Drew]

yes, i see that, but he(drew) talks about us(presently) forming a christain theocracy and that will help the kingdom of the lord come quicker there's another topic on this called kindgom theology by ret.

This a tad misleading. I have been quite clear in my posts that the way we are to enact Jesus' kingship is decidedly not a "theocracy" in the sense that this word typically suggests.

I will not repeat what I have already written - I will just point out that your characterization of my view is not accurate.

 

[jasoncran]

what else would it be then?

 

[glorydaz]

yes, i see that, but he(drew) talks about us(presently) forming a christain theocracy and that will help the kingdom of the lord come quicker there's another topic on this called kindgom theology by ret.

This a tad misleading. I have been quite clear in my posts that the way we are to enact Jesus' kingship is decidedly not a "theocracy" in the sense that this word typically suggests.

I will not repeat what I have already written - I will just point out that your characterization of my view is not accurate.

Tell me if I'm wrong. You're talking about the church using the power the Lord has given us. Too often we sit back defeated because we think satan is in charge. He isn't in charge...he's simply fooled enough of us that we aren't effective anymore. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies with power over evil and instead we sit in our pews waiting for Jesus to come and make everything right. No wonder it looks like the enemy is in charge. :bigfrown

 

[jasoncran]

the church could use that power and influence the culture, i was never saying that it coulndt or cant. drew comes across as saying that we should rise up vote and form a christian nation and that we should usher in the kingdom that way.

i wish that more christian voted according to principal and lived the life. instead of the mere 20% that do.then maybe more sinners would come to the lord and see what the lord has to offer.

 

[Drew]

Tell me if I'm wrong. You're talking about the church using the power the Lord has given us. Too often we sit back defeated because we think satan is in charge. He isn't in charge...he's simply fooled enough of us that we aren't effective anymore. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies with power over evil and instead we sit in our pews waiting for Jesus to come and make everything right. No wonder it looks like the enemy is in charge. :bigfrown

Well I would certainly agree with that. But I am saying more than this. I am saying that we should take the kingdom of God values we see in the scriptures and try to enshrine them in all institutions of our society, governmental or otherwise.

One example: We are told that the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God is good news for the poor. Well. if we live in a rich country, should we not seek to have our governments send more aide to the poor. And so on.

It is, frankly, absurd to say that the values of Jesus applies to "our inner lives" only and stand back and let the rest of the world be run by a different set of values.

 

[Drew]

....drew comes across as saying that we should rise up vote and form a christian nation and that we should usher in the kingdom that way.

Right. Except that I would say that the kingdom is already here and we are seeking its consummation, or completion.

 

[jasoncran]

i wanted to be sure. though i still disagree with the assement but i feel that you have the concern for the poor. and that's good.

 

[glorydaz]

I really have mixed emotions about encouraging our government to give aid to the poor.
The government is too involved in our lives as it is, and, of course, they'll tax us to get the money.
They are so inefficient with money, and more goes to the govt. than goes to the needy.

It's the responsibility of the church to care for the poor...not the government.
I just think the less we have to do with the government, the better.
We can work to get Godly men in office, but power seems to corrupt, so I'm not so sure that's a good idea. I'm all for praying the officials have wisdom, but I'd rather see the church step up for the good causes than give those causes over to govt. care.

 

[jasoncran]

I really have mixed emotions about encouraging our government to give aid to the poor.
The government is too involved in our lives as it is, and, of course, they'll tax us to get the money.
They are so inefficient with money, and more goes to the govt. than goes to the needy.

It's the responsibility of the church to care for the poor...not the government.
I just think the less we have to do with the government, the better.
We can work to get Godly men in office, but power seems to corrupt, so I'm not so sure that's a good idea. I'm all for praying the officials have wisdom, but I'd rather see the church step up for the good causes than give those causes over to govt. care.

my point exactly!

 

[glorydaz]

....drew comes across as saying that we should rise up vote and form a christian nation and that we should usher in the kingdom that way.

Right. Except that I would say that the kingdom is already here and we are seeking its consummation, or completion.

I don't think the consummation is meant to come until the Lord returns.
Remember the kingdom parable about the tares and wheat.

If you can't pull up the weeds, for fear of getting the wheat, too, the weeds grow like crazy...taking over the whole field. It'll be the harvest that brings the cure.

 

[veteran]

yes, i see that, but he(drew) talks about us(presently) forming a christain theocracy and that will help the kingdom of the lord come quicker there's another topic on this called kindgom theology by ret.

The idea of creating a theocracy on earth today is what the Kingdom now theories are about. But in reality, who's kingdom is being established upon this earth today de facto? Not our Lord's Kingdom. That's specifically why Christianity is being attacked today, ALL over this earth. If we were in Christ's literal Kingdom to come, then WE would be ruling here on earth over ALL nations, our Lord Jesus being here in Person on earth with us as Head.

That is clearly not happenning today. Just the opposite is happenning. The devil is being given power to rule on earth for a short time first, and that's the specific danger for deceived brethren. This is why we're given Scripture in Daniel about the very end like this...

Dan 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.(KJV)

So for those who don't see who's kingdom is being setup on earth today (i.e., the devil's), then it means they will be deceived, and be part of the wrong kingdom. And, they'll learn that difference only when Christ comes to rule de facto on earth with His elect saints.

This is why it's so important not to latch onto many of the Church doctrines going on today about the end of this world, but instead stay line upon line in God's Word, praying for understanding directly. Many of today's Churches are being overtaken by Christ's enemies, as that's what the Daniel 7:25 verse is about.

 

[jasoncran]

if you have been observing me long enough i dont accept what thus saith the pastor till the lord verifies.

i do agree with you that satan is allowed to set up his kingdom. i'm a pretribber.

 

[glorydaz]

If we were in Christ's literal Kingdom to come, then WE would be ruling here on earth over ALL nations, our Lord Jesus being here in Person on earth with us as Head.

That is clearly not happenning today. Just the opposite is happenning. The devil is being given power to rule on earth for a short time first, and that's the specific danger for deceived brethren.

I have a question for you, veteran. Who are the "all nations" we'll be ruling over on earth?

 

[veteran]

If we were in Christ's literal Kingdom to come, then WE would be ruling here on earth over ALL nations, our Lord Jesus being here in Person on earth with us as Head.

That is clearly not happenning today. Just the opposite is happenning. The devil is being given power to rule on earth for a short time first, and that's the specific danger for deceived brethren.

I have a question for you, veteran. Who are the "all nations" we'll be ruling over on earth?

Every one of the nations that are LEFT. Christ's rule then will be Absolute, over the whole earth, all knees bowing to Him as KING of kings, and LORD of lords.

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

The "synagogue of Satan" is put for the very seat of Christ's enemies on earth. That event of their coming to worship Him at the feet of His elect has never happenned to this day. But that day will come.

 

[glorydaz]

If we were in Christ's literal Kingdom to come, then WE would be ruling here on earth over ALL nations, our Lord Jesus being here in Person on earth with us as Head.

That is clearly not happenning today. Just the opposite is happenning. The devil is being given power to rule on earth for a short time first, and that's the specific danger for deceived brethren.

I have a question for you, veteran. Who are the "all nations" we'll be ruling over on earth?

Every one of the nations that are LEFT. Christ's rule then will be Absolute, over the whole earth, all knees bowing to Him as KING of kings, and LORD of lords.

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

The "synagogue of Satan" is put for the very seat of Christ's enemies on earth. That event of their coming to worship Him at the feet of His elect has never happenned to this day. But that day will come.

How can there be any nations left after the harvest?
You said there would be no unrighteousness in the future kingdom.