Ephesians 1

[Deborah13]

In the passage in Eph 1 Jesus is not the beloved and the chosen. Have you read the other link I posted? In that link it is shown from the grammar of the Greek text that Paul cannot be speaking of Jesus when he speaks of the "Beloved".

Paul also speaks of having received an inheritance, that's past tense. The Gentiles had never received an inheritance from God, however, the Jews had.

My point was that no one is chosen, beloved, of the good olive tree without being in Jesus.
So which Jews are the ones, Paul speaking about?

I have not read the other one and I may not, yet. I'm sticking with yours because I'm talking to you.

 

[Butch5]

My point was that no one is chosen, beloved, of the good olive tree without being in Jesus.
So which Jews are the ones, Paul speaking about?

I have not read the other one and I may not, yet. I'm sticking with yours because I'm talking to you.

My point is that Paul is alluding to OT passages that show the Jews were chosen as a people and they were predestined to adoption as a people. God called Israel His Son, and the "Beloved" that Paul speaks of is Israel, not Jesus. If you read the other link it goes into greater detail and shows how the Greek grammar excludes certain interpretations that many Christians try to apply to this passage.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

In this thread I'd like to discuss Ephesians 1:3-12. It's my contention that this passage is speaking of the Jews, the Israelites. I'm including a link to a commentary that I've compiled as it's too long to post here.

Ephesians 1:1-14 Commentary

The first three passages are about the union of believers in the Messiah Jesus. How the gospel has revealed that Gentiles along with the Jews who are in Christ, are heirs of the inheritance.

The "us" in verses 3-10 are all believers, Jews and Gentiles. That it has been God's plan from the foundation of the Earth to have a chosen people in Christ from all the people of the Earth, not just the Jewish ethnicity. Later in verses 11-14 Paul uses different nouns to distinguish the Gentile believers in Ephesus, the "you," and also the first Jewish believers whom he is among which is the "we."

Look at what Paul has written here:

how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.[1]

Notice, that he mentions that has already written about this mystery of Christ. Where has he written about it? Well, that would be the first couple chapters of this Epistle (as we now distinguish them for ourselves). The central theme to the first three chapters is the revelation of the mystery of Christ, that Gentiles are fellow heirs of the inheritance who partake in the same promise given through Abraham in Christ.

This passage is all about the Gentiles being included into those original blessings, but in 3-10 it is absolutely referring to those in Christ, both Jews and Gentiles being partakers of those spiritual blessings.

[1] Ephesians 3:3-6 (ESV)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

My point is that Paul is alluding to OT passages that show the Jews were chosen as a people and they were predestined to adoption as a people.

No, the Jews were not predestined to adoption through Christ.

Let's look at the text.

"he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will"

This adoption though predestined, did not take place until the coming of the Messiah, so it cannot refer to just the Jews.

God called Israel His Son, and the "Beloved" that Paul speaks of is Israel, not Jesus.

Beloved is a term that Paul uses very often to refer to all believers.

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 (ESV) [Note: Same Greek Word]

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:19 (ESV)

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Corinthians 10:14 (ESV)

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. Ephesians 5:1 (ESV)

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12 (ESV)

Beloved, are those people who are loved by God, which is certainly not excluded to Israelites, but to all those in the Messiah.

If you read the other link it goes into greater detail and shows how the Greek grammar excludes certain interpretations that many Christians try to apply to this passage.

While it is important to note the differences, which he makes clear in verses 11-14, this is not so for verses 3-10.

The first person plural pronoun simply means that it is the author plus someone else. It could mean Paul plus Joe, or it could be Paul plus everyone in the world. It does not have an definitive quality to it so as to exclude a certain interpretation except that it could only be referring to Paul only, that is not possible.

 

[Deborah13]

My point is that Paul is alluding to OT passages that show the Jews were chosen as a people and they were predestined to adoption as a people. God called Israel His Son, and the "Beloved" that Paul speaks of is Israel, not Jesus. If you read the other link it goes into greater detail and shows how the Greek grammar excludes certain interpretations that many Christians try to apply to this passage.

So I read that link about verses 1-12. As far as the Greek pronouns go, yeah so what? I agree that Paul is talking about Jews when he says pronouns such as we, our, us.
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Who was the glory of Israel? Jesus
The purpose for the nation of Israel was to be a light to the world. satan tried to stop that from happening over and over. Just like Simeon said when he saw Jesus, he saw salvation, the light to the world, and the glory of Israel.
The nation of Israel had served the purpose that they were intended for.

Joh 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
So God reveled to him who Christ was. But did all of the Jews (genetically speaking) believe He was the Messiah?

 

[Butch5]

No, the Jews were not predestined to adoption through Christ.

Let's look at the text.

"he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will"

This adoption though predestined, did not take place until the coming of the Messiah, so it cannot refer to just the Jews.

Yes, the Jews were predestined to adoption. Paul stats plainly in Romans that the adoption belongs to the Jews.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.(Rom 9:3-5 KJV)

Beloved is a term that Paul uses very often to refer to all believers.

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 (ESV) [Note: Same Greek Word]

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:19 (ESV)

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Corinthians 10:14 (ESV)

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. Ephesians 5:1 (ESV)

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12 (ESV)

Beloved, are those people who are loved by God, which is certainly not excluded to Israelites, but to all those in the Messiah.

I don't see how this addresses the issue. Just because Paul says someone is beloved somewhere else doesn't take away from my claim about Ephesians 1. In Ephesians 1 Paul said "the" beloved. That indicates a specific beloved.

While it is important to note the differences, which he makes clear in verses 11-14, this is not so for verses 3-10.

The first person plural pronoun simply means that it is the author plus someone else. It could mean Paul plus Joe, or it could be Paul plus everyone in the world. It does not have an definitive quality to it so as to exclude a certain interpretation except that it could only be referring to Paul only, that is not possible.

Yes, who Paul includes in the group with him must be determined by the context. In this case he tells us who they are, those who before hoped in the Christ. The Ephesians don't fit that bill.

Please read the PFRS link, I think it will save a lot of time in discussion.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

In the passage in Eph 1 Jesus is not the beloved and the chosen.

Indeed, it is the people of God who are distinguished by being found in the Messiah Jesus.

Have you read the other link I posted? In that link it is shown from the grammar of the Greek text that Paul cannot be speaking of Jesus when he speaks of the "Beloved".

Yes, this would be a misunderstanding of how corporate election works.

Paul also speaks of having received an inheritance, that's past tense. The Gentiles had never received an inheritance from God, however, the Jews had.

Incorrect.

Let's look at those verses you are referring to.

In him we have obtained an inheritance,[1]

This word translated "obtained," is a little tricky. The word ἐκληρώθημεν has two meanings, appoint by lot or receive by lot. So many commentators argue back and forth about whether it means that we were "chosen as an inheritance" or if we "have obtained an inheritance." I personally lean towards the latter, but would say that the word only denotes that we have been assigned the inheritance, not that we have received it in full. As verse 14 would be a direct contradiction to your interpretation.

who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.[2]

The word for our is "ἡμῶν" which is a personal possessive plural pronoun in the first person. We know it's possessive because of the Genitive case, which makes it a possessive Genitive. Which in turn makes the inheritance that of Paul and the group he is also referring to. This of course contradicts your interpretation of them already obtaining, because Paul says "until we acquire possession of it," which clearly indicates that although we have received the down payment of the inheritance through the Holy Spirit, this is a partial endowment of that inheritance until we receive full possession of it later. Paul himself a Jew did not have full possession of it yet, as the text makes clear so your interpretation is proven false.


[1] Ephesians 1:11a (ESV)
[2] Ephesians 1:14 (ESV)

 

[Butch5]

So I read that link about verses 1-12. As far as the Greek pronouns go, yeah so what? I agree that Paul is talking about Jews when he says pronouns such as we, our, us.
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Who was the glory of Israel? Jesus
The purpose for the nation of Israel was to be a light to the world. satan tried to stop that from happening over and over. Just like Simeon said when he saw Jesus, he saw salvation, the light to the world, and the glory of Israel.
The nation of Israel had served the purpose that they were intended for.

Joh 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
So God reveled to him who Christ was. But did all of the Jews (genetically speaking) believe He was the Messiah?

Whether all the Jews believed is not Paul's point. He is simple giving praise to God for the blessings He's bestowed on Israel. If you agree that Paul is talking about the Jews then those who were chosen from the foundation of the world and predestined to adoption would be Jews, correct?

 

[Deborah13]

Whether all the Jews believed is not Paul's point. He is simple giving praise to God for the blessings He's bestowed on Israel. If you agree that Paul is talking about the Jews then those who were chosen from the foundation of the world and predestined to adoption would be Jews, correct?

Yes they would be Jews that he is speaking of in the verses, individual Jews and Hebrews such as Abraham or even Rahab. But all Jews by birth, no. Paul explains who is a Jew, and it has nothing to do with birth genetics or even proselytes in the nation of Israel.
Jesus even tells them that. Being related to Abraham will not save them.

 

[Butch5]

Indeed, it is the people of God who are distinguished by being found in the Messiah Jesus.

The Jews were God people, He said, "Israel is My son."

Yes, this would be a misunderstanding of how corporate election works.

Oh, brother!

Incorrect.

Let's look at those verses you are referring to.

In him we have obtained an inheritance,[1]

This word translated "obtained," is a little tricky. The word ἐκληρώθημεν has two meanings, appoint by lot or receive by lot. So many commentators argue back and forth about whether it means that we were "chosen as an inheritance" or if we "have obtained an inheritance." I personally lean towards the latter, but would say that the word only denotes that we have been assigned the inheritance, not that we have received it in full. As verse 14 would be a direct contradiction to your interpretation.

who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.[2]

The word for our is "ἡμῶν" which is a personal possessive plural pronoun in the first person. We know it's possessive because of the Genitive case, which makes it a possessive Genitive. Which in turn makes the inheritance that of Paul and the group he is also referring to. This of course contradicts your interpretation of them already obtaining, because Paul says "until we acquire possession of it," which clearly indicates that although we have received the down payment of the inheritance through the Holy Spirit, this is a partial endowment of that inheritance until we receive full possession of it later. Paul himself a Jew did not have full possession of it yet, as the text makes clear so your interpretation is proven false.


[1] Ephesians 1:11a (ESV)
[2] Ephesians 1:14 (ESV)

No, my interpretation is not proven false, I think you just don't understand what I'm saying, let me elaborate. In verse 3-12 Paul includes himself in a group of people who before hoped in the Christ. Then in verse 13 referring to the Ephesians he says "You" indicating a different group. Then in verse 14 he uses "our" inclusively (in verses 3-12 he had used it exclusively} In which He combines the two group. So, we have him mentioning one, then the second group, then combining the two. Let go back to the inheritance, Israel did receive an inheritance in its past.

52 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
53 Unto these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names.
54 To many thou shalt give the more inheritance, and to few thou shalt give the less inheritance: to every one shall his inheritance be given according to those that were numbered of him.
55 Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot: according to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit.
56 According to the lot shall the possession thereof be divided between many and few. (Num 26:52-56 KJV)

Notice the land was given by lot just as your definition suggested. This took place long before Paul wrote Ephesians. The land was divided by lot and given to the Jews as an inheritance.

Paul goes on to say that the Ephesians have received a "down payment" on their inheritance, they have not received it in the full sense, however, of that inheritance. neither has Paul or anyone else received it in its fullness. As a Jew Paul had a past and a future inheritance, the Ephesians, however, did not.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, the Jews were predestined to adoption. Paul stats plainly in Romans that the adoption belongs to the Jews.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.(Rom 9:3-5 KJV)

You just restated your position and cited a proof text. Ephesians 1 is about adoption through Jesus, while Romans 9 was about adoption/sonship through being apart of Israel who was the people of God. The people of God are redefined through the New Covenant to be those who belong to the Messiah, and are distinguished not by circumcision but by faith in Jesus.

Adoption was apart of the original blessings of Israel, but now believers in Christ possess "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places." We have it, but it's not here with us now except in what we have through the Holy Spirit, the rest is waiting for us in the New Creation. These blessings are received in the past tense because they were received when we believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I don't see how this addresses the issue. Just because Paul says someone is beloved somewhere else doesn't take away from my claim about Ephesians 1. InEphesians 1 Paul said "the" beloved. That indicates a specific beloved.

I was mistaken, I needed to go read the verse. DOH

This is definitely referring to Jesus. And I don't think anything you linked changes that.

The phrase uses the preposition of location that is consistently referring to being IN the Christ. It would be out of context to refer to them being in Israel, through a vague term that is more recently attributed to Jesus as being the Beloved. The perfect participle doesn't change anything either, because Jesus has always been beloved by God.

It also makes more sense in the verse if we were to replace the word beloved with Israel or Jesus.

to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in Jesus.

to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in Israel.

We have been blessed with God's glorious grace in the Messiah, not Israel.

Yes, who Paul includes in the group with him must be determined by the context. In this case he tells us who they are, those who before hoped in the Christ.

No, Paul is distinguishing the two different groups that make up the "us," which are the ones who first hoped in the Christ and those who have come to now believe which are the believers in Ephesus. Remember, this whole section is about the unveiling of the mystery of Christ which is that Gentiles are fellow heirs and partakers of the promise through Christ. Hence, all that the Jews once possessed is now belonging to us all and more so!

Please read the PFRS link, I think it will save a lot of time in discussion.

I've read it.

 

[Butch5]

Yes they would be Jews that he is speaking of in the verses, individual Jews and Hebrews such as Abraham or even Rahab. But all Jews by birth, no. Paul explains who is a Jew, and it has nothing to do with birth genetics or even proselytes in the nation of Israel.
Jesus even tells them that. Being related to Abraham will not save them.

Yes, that's true, but that wasn't revealed until hundreds of years later. When God said, "Israel is My son" Jesus and Paul were still a long way off. So, we need to understand what It meant when it was said, because that is what Paul is referring to. Everything Paul says there with the exception of one verb is in the past, he's using the past tense. So, when God said to Israel, I have chosen you, what did He mean? That is what we need to find out. He said, they were chosen to be a holy nation and blameless, we know they weren't. They were to be a light, they weren't. However, God still did those things because of the promise He made to Abraham. He told Abraham that his seed would be as the stars in the heavens. He made a covenant with Abraham and Isaac and the covenant that He swore with Abraham was sealed with God making an oath to Abraham and God was going to fulfill that oath.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The Jews were God people, He said, "Israel is My son."

Were the ancient Jews adopted through the Messiah? Yes or no. Waiting for your answer, and if yes, please explain how.

No, my interpretation is not proven false, I think you just don't understand what I'm saying, let me elaborate. In verse 3-12 Paul includes himself in a group of people who before hoped in the Christ. Then in verse 13 referring to the Ephesians he says "You" indicating a different group. Then in verse 14 he uses "our" inclusively (in verses 3-12 he had used it exclusively} In which He combines the two group. So, we have him mentioning one, then the second group, then combining the two. Let go back to the inheritance, Israel did receive an inheritance in its past.

Still wrong..

This is not referring to Israel because the inheritance was received "IN HIM," that being the Christ.

52 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
53 Unto these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names.
54 To many thou shalt give the more inheritance, and to few thou shalt give the less inheritance: to every one shall his inheritance be given according to those that were numbered of him.
55 Notwithstanding the land shall be divided by lot: according to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit.
56 According to the lot shall the possession thereof be divided between many and few. (Num 26:52-56 KJV)

Notice the land was given by lot just as your definition suggested. This took place long before Paul wrote Ephesians. The land was divided by lot and given to the Jews as an inheritance.

Yes, I agree with you in part that the language Paul is using here in Ephesians 1 is tying together the blessings of ancient Israel to the New Covenant. This however is not referring to Israel having received that inheritance in the past. As this is text says that IN HIM we have received that inheritance.

Paul goes on to say that the Ephesians have received a "down payment" on their inheritance, they have not received it in the full sense, however, of that inheritance. neither has Paul or anyone else received it in its fullness. As a Jew Paul had a past and a future inheritance, the Ephesians, however, did not.

Did the ancient Jews receive their inheritance in Jesus? Yes or no..

 

[Butch5]

You just restated your position and cited a proof text. Ephesians 1 is about adoption through Jesus, while Romans 9 was about adoption/sonship through being apart of Israel who was the people of God. The people of God are redefined through the New Covenant to be those who belong to the Messiah, and are distinguished not by circumcision but by faith in Jesus.

Adoption was apart of the original blessings of Israel, but now believers in Christ possess "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places." We have it, but it's not here with us now except in what we have through the Holy Spirit, the rest is waiting for us in the New Creation. These blessings are received in the past tense because they were received when we believed, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Do you really believe that? They're in the past tense because they were in the past. Yes the adoption is through Christ and it was the same for the Israelites, they're adoption was also through Christ.

How can you say you've received every spiritual blessing but you haven't received it yet? To me that seems forced in order to fit a theological position. Whereas what I've said follows the normal usage of the past tense


[

I was mistaken, I needed to go read the verse. DOH

This is definitely referring to Jesus. And I don't think anything you linked changes that.

The phrase uses the preposition of location that is consistently referring to being IN the Christ. It would be out of context to refer to them being in Israel, through a vague term that is more recently attributed to Jesus as being the Beloved. The perfect participle doesn't change anything either, because Jesus has always been beloved by God.

It also makes more sense in the verse if we were to replace the word beloved with Israel or Jesus.

to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in Jesus.

to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in Israel.

We have been blessed with God's glorious grace in the Messiah, not Israel.

Ok, let me ask you then, what is the event then that Father loved Jesus in the past?

Can you refer me to another place where Jesus is referred to as "The" Beloved?

No, Paul is distinguishing the two different groups that make up the "us," which are the ones who first hoped in the Christ and those who have come to now believe which are the believers in Ephesus. Remember, this whole section is about the unveiling of the mystery of Christ which is that Gentiles are fellow heirs and partakers of the promise through Christ. Hence, all that the Jews once possessed is now belonging to us all and more so!

OK, so, if the one who have come to believe in Ephesus are the "you" group, who are the "us" group?

 

[Butch5]

Were the ancient Jews adopted through the Messiah? Yes or no. Waiting for your answer, and if yes, please explain how.

Yes, but not all were adopted as Paul goes to say when speaks elsewhere of a remnant. When the Jews were keeping the Law, who were they obeying? It was Christ who gave them the Law. Israel's interaction with God in the OT was Jesus. When Scripture says that Abraham believed God, it was Jesus who had given Abraham those commands. So, yes those Jews who did obey did so in Christ.

Still wrong..

This is not referring to Israel because the inheritance was received "IN HIM," that being the Christ.

Instead of trying to argue that I'm wrong why not listen to what I'm saying. It seems to me that you understand this passage the way the majority of Christians do. I'm presenting it from a different perspective so everything I say is probably going to seem wrong to you. It's been my experience that many Christians have tunnel vision when it comes to the Scriptures, they see nothing but salvation in every passage. They can't see the forest for the trees. There's a bigger picture in the Scriptures than just the salvation of man. God's whole universe doesn't revolve around man and his salvation. It's this bigger picture that I'm referring.

Yes, I agree with you in part that the language Paul is using here in Ephesians 1 is tying together the blessings of ancient Israel to the New Covenant. This however is not referring to Israel having received that inheritance in the past. As this is text says that IN HIM we have received that inheritance.

Both inheritances were in Christ.

Did the ancient Jews receive their inheritance in Jesus? Yes or no..

Yes

 

[Butch5]

Yes they would be Jews that he is speaking of in the verses, individual Jews and Hebrews such as Abraham or even Rahab. But all Jews by birth, no. Paul explains who is a Jew, and it has nothing to do with birth genetics or even proselytes in the nation of Israel.
Jesus even tells them that. Being related to Abraham will not save them.

Hi Deb,

You believe in OSAS correct? If so, let me explain that as I understand it adoption doesn't guarantee salvation . One could be adopted and then disinherited.

11 Then the LORD said to Moses: "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?
12 "I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they." (Num 14:11-12 NKJ)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Do you really believe that? They're in the past tense because they were in the past. Yes the adoption is through Christ and it was the same for the Israelites, they're adoption was also through Christ.

How can you say you've received every spiritual blessing but you haven't received it yet? To me that seems forced in order to fit a theological position. Whereas what I've said follows the normal usage of the past tense

My last message was in the past, but it was only a few minutes ago. What's your point. If someone has a blessing in Christ because they believed, then guess what.. that too is in the past!

How was Israel adopted through the Messiah, when he had not even come yet. Please explain this to me....

We have received every spiritual blessing in the HEAVENLY PLACES. Read the text.

These are:
Election
Adoption
Redemption
Forgiveness
Inheritance
The Holy Spirit

And we have received all these things in Christ.

who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

These were blessed upon us at a particular time.. when we came to be in Christ.

Ok, let me ask you then, what is the event then that Father loved Jesus in the past?

Can you refer me to another place where Jesus is referred to as "The" Beloved?

The event that stands out in my mind is his baptism.

OK, so, if the one who have come to believe in Ephesus are the "you" group, who are the "us" group?

The "us" are all those in Christ as a general group. A plausible interpretation for me would be this, and one I have entertained in the past.

Which is that the "we" is referring to the Jews who first came to believe in Christ, and that it is revealed later in the section that all those blessings they enjoy also belong to the believers in Ephesus. I have no problem with this interpretation, and I think that and the one I currently tentatively hold are valid as they take into account that this is all about the revelation of the mystery of Christ.

 

[Butch5]

My last message was in the past, but it was only a few minutes ago. What's your point. If someone has a blessing in Christ because they believed, then guess what.. that too is in the past!

Ok, one of the blessings is eternal life, can I assume you won't die? On of the blessings is a resurrected body do you possess that now? You spoke of having received future blessings in the past. That seems to be a contradiction in terms, if it a future blessing how is it received in the past? Wouldn't that make it a past blessing?

How was Israel adopted through the Messiah, when he had not even come yet. Please explain this to me....

Through faith the same way they are now.

We have received every spiritual blessing in the HEAVENLY PLACES. Read the text.

These are:
Election
Adoption
Redemption
Forgiveness
Inheritance
The Holy Spirit

And we have received all these things in Christ.

who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

These were blessed upon us at a particular time.. when we came to be in Christ.

That may be but that doesn't mean that that is what Paul is talking about. Also the word places isn't in the text.

The event that stands out in my mind is his baptism.

OK, should we assume that prior to that that Jesus wasn't loved by God?


The "us" are all those in Christ as a general group. A plausible interpretation for me would be this, and one I have entertained in the past.

Which is that the "we" is referring to the Jews who first came to believe in Christ, and that it is revealed later in the section that all those blessings they enjoy also belong to the believers in Ephesus. I have no problem with this interpretation, and I think that and the one I currently tentatively hold are valid as they take into account that this is all about the revelation of the mystery of Christ.

If the "We" is the Jews who first came Christ and the Gentiles were included in this can you show where Scripture says that the Gentiles were chosen to be a holy and blameless before the Lord?

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, that's true, but that wasn't revealed until hundreds of years later. When God said, "Israel is My son" Jesus and Paul were still a long way off. So, we need to understand what It meant when it was said, because that is what Paul is referring to. Everything Paul says there with the exception of one verb is in the past, he's using the past tense. So, when God said to Israel, I have chosen you, what did He mean? That is what we need to find out. He said, they were chosen to be a holy nation and blameless, we know they weren't. They were to be a light, they weren't. However, God still did those things because of the promise He made to Abraham. He told Abraham that his seed would be as the stars in the heavens. He made a covenant with Abraham and Isaac and the covenant that He swore with Abraham was sealed with God making an oath to Abraham and God was going to fulfill that oath.

Paul revels that the seed of Abraham is not in the plural as seeds, as is one Seed. That being Christ.
Rom_9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom_9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The NT is the reveling OT. The OT, the Torah and the prophets are the witnesses to Christ as the Messiah.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, but not all were adopted as Paul goes to say when speaks elsewhere of a remnant. When the Jews were keeping the Law, who were they obeying? It was Christ who gave them the Law. Israel's interaction with God in the OT was Jesus. When Scripture says that Abraham believed God, it was Jesus who had given Abraham those commands. So, yes those Jews who did obey did so in Christ.

Which he says at the PRESENT TIME there is a remnant chosen by grace.

You're confusing things when you say that they were obeying Christ. Remember Jesus is God, but did not become the Messiah until he came in the flesh. The law was given as a guardian until that Messiah would come. Israel's interaction with God was not only with Jesus, that's an odd conclusion as they claimed to be his sons in John 8, and that God was their father. God's relations with mankind have always been of a trinitarian nature.

Instead of trying to argue that I'm wrong why not listen to what I'm saying. It seems to me that you understand this passage the way the majority of Christians do. I'm presenting it from a different perspective so everything I say is probably going to seem wrong to you. It's been my experience that many Christians have tunnel vision when it comes to the Scriptures, they see nothing but salvation in every passage. They can't see the forest for the trees. There's a bigger picture in the Scriptures than just the salvation of man. God's whole universe doesn't revolve around man and his salvation. It's this bigger picture that I'm referring.

I don't think this passage is all about salvation, where have I said this?

This passage is about the revelation of the mystery of Christ, that Gentiles are fellow heirs and partakers of the promise. That's the lens I see this text through, and it's how one properly exegetes the text.

I'm not your average Christian.

Both inheritances were in Christ.

You realize that Christ means Messiah, and that the Messiah is something Jesus became. That's like saying someone worked for Obama when he was 25 and therefore worked for the president. He wasn't the president yet, as that is something he became not a quality he possesses.

You confuse Paul's point by making this convoluted journey to all these OT passages to try and say that these were things possessed by ancient Israelites. It is true that they did possess these things, but all of us now possess these things in the New Covenant which applies to all those in the Messiah.

Paul's talking about who is truly the people of God, and has now revealed that the Messiah has broken down the divisions that divided Jew and Gentile so that now all can partake through faith.