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Ephesians 1

I'm curious, why do you think it is important to see verses 3-10 as referring to the ancient Jews, and not either 1) all believers in Christ, or 2) the first Jewish believers in Christ. It just doesn't make sense to me, and that is probably the biggest problem that I have with the test. In regards to a reader being able to extract that meaning, it seems like it would be a very complicated and convoluted way to state something with little relevance to the topic.

How about you give me the reader's digest version of the text in your own words.

Because it fits within the bigger picture, that being that God has used a nation to bring about salvation to mankind. He didn't just take the believing Jews and say these guys are my children and the rest of you forget it. If that was the case then the Calvinist would be correct. God made a covenant with Israel and every male that was circumcised was a part of that covenant whether they wind up saved in the end or not. There are blessings and curses in the covenant which come to Israel. The blessings weren't for select individuals they were for everyone in the covenant. Rather than post a bunch of OT passage I'll post Paul's summation.

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (1Co 10:1-5 KJV)

It sure seems like these are the "heavenly things" that Paul is talking about in Ephesians 1. Notice he says "all" our fathers, "all" passed through the sea, "all" were baptized into Moses. That's the nation, all of the Jews. Notice they "all" eat and drank of that "spiritual" meat and drink which came from the spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ.

Doesn't that sound like,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (Eph 1:3 KJV)

That's why I say it is speaking of the Jews as nation and not just believers. All had the spiritual blessings in Christ.
 
I did read both of the links.

This is just my opinion and what I read "between the Lines" I could be wrong though.

It seems to me that this is a stretched teaching to try to explain away the reformed doctrines of election and predestination for the individual. I believe that these links have it wrong and It came about because of the very popular reformed theology doctrines of election and predestination. And someone somewhere had to come up with something to refute it. Noble in its cause, but went outside of the word to try to refute something else(Reformed election and predestination) that is outside of the word of God.

If this isn't the case, why is it important for believers to read Eph like the links describe?

.

On what do you base your opinion?
 
I'm curious, why do you think it is important to see verses 3-10 as referring to the ancient Jews, and not either 1) all believers in Christ, or 2) the first Jewish believers in Christ. It just doesn't make sense to me, and that is probably the biggest problem that I have with the test. In regards to a reader being able to extract that meaning, it seems like it would be a very complicated and convoluted way to state something with little relevance to the topic.

How about you give me the reader's digest version of the text in your own words.

The condensed version is that in verses 3-12 Paul is simply giving praise to God for what He's done for the Jewish people. In verse 13 he includes the gentiles and in verse 14 he has brought both in to one unit.
 
On what do you base your opinion?
From this:

Commentary on Ephesians Chapter 1:3:12

Who was Chosen before the foundation of the world?

Does Ephesians 1 say that believers in Christ were chosen before the
foundation of the world?
Many Christians believe this, so let’s take a look
and see.

In Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul speaks of the Jews not Christians in general. It
was the Jews who were chosen before the foundation of the world. Let's look
at what Paul himself has to say,
 
I agree that he’s referring to the age to come. My question is how does one have that life today. Paul said the believer has the down payment on the inheritance, which is the Spirit. He also said in Romans 8 that it is the Spirit that will raise the believer from the dead. This seem to me to be the connection between John’s saying the believer has eternal life in the present. Not that the believer will never die but rather that he has the means of life in him.
That is a possible interpretation, and wouldn't directly say I disagree with that.

I however would say that I see it more as a "quality of life" as in we bear the fruit of the future New Creation, and are apart of that kingdom, even having it within us. That our citizenship is of the heavenly Jerusalem, but we still exist in this world as being like a foreigner (to borrow some NT analogies).

He doesn’t mention the Messiah in that passage so I’m not quite sure what the point is that you’re trying to make. How are tying together the adoption and the Messiah?
Paul consistently refers to Jesus as "the Messiah/Christ" which he says that we have every spiritual blessing in him. He uses different ways to say this, be it "in Christ," or "in the Beloved," or "in Him," but I don't think the use of the title "the Christ is accidental or simply out of habit. I think it's integral to the topic.

Ok, if it can be things then it doesn’t have to be places right? Places is a noun, correct and heavenly an adjective that describes a noun, correct? Heavenly is in the neuter gender, correct? Why would you add the word places rather than things?
A translator would add places because it is a location (remember the preposition of location), this makes it slightly more defined than other places where it might be appropriate to just translate it "things."

Make sense?

I understand that, however, the act having a beginning does matter to my argument. If the act of God loving Jesus had a beginning and if Christ is eternal as most believe that means there was a time prior to act that God didn’t love Christ. That would indicate that the passage is not speaking of Christ. One could argue a different understanding of Christ’s eternity, however, what is considered as the Trinity by most Christians today this passage cannot speaking of Christ
Where in the text does it denote that God began to love this person?

You said if something isn’t in the Scriptures that doesn’t mean it’s not true. I agree with that statement. On the other hand it cannot be said that it is true since it not in the Scriptures.
Which is a good thing I am not saying that.

I hear Christians speak of what is orthodox quite often. I don’t see how an appeal to what is orthodox is any defense of a position.
It's not the end to an argument, but when it comes to issues like this (which aren't big) the consensus usually is on to something. It is certainly by far not the most crucial method for determining the correctness of an interpretation.

The Catholic Church had control of the Scriptures for 1000 years. During that time Purgatory was orthodox, was it correct? All of the doctrines that the Reformers rebelled against were orthodox, were they right or were the Reformers right or were they both wrong. What is orthodox one day is heresy the next
Though I bet both the RCC and the Rerformers would probably agree on this text, although Calvinist Reformers would probably read more of their doctrine in than I would.

But, isn’t that you’re opinion of what the text is saying? It’s not mine. I don’t look at the text that way. You’re saying it’s the only NT passage that references the NT elect being chosen and I’m saying it’s reference to many OT passages.
I agreed with you that it's a reference to an OT passage. In fact, a LONG time ago on this forum I made an exposition of Ephesians 1-3 where I pointed out all the ties in Ephesians 1 with the blessings Israel possessed, but now how they are summed up with the Messiah and belong to Jew and Gentile alike.

My understanding fits the context nicely also. The difference is I’m not making my claim without any evidence. If this is the only passage that references NT elect being chosen then there is no support for the claim.
You do understand that the word "elect" basically means chosen. This is just the verbal form of saying that someone has made a choice or a selection from out of.

It wouldn't make any sense to say, "I have chosen my elect." The elect are chosen by definition of the term.

There is also this text of course.

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood

God's elect who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God to be obedient to Jesus Christ. Sounds like Ephesians 1... Hmm..

However, if it’s speaking of the Jews as I suggest there are many passages to support the idea. It’s all over the OT.
The Jews were a chosen people, and there still exists today a chosen people and they are those who are in Christ.

How is it in the context to apply future events to the past?
What are you talking about?

Let's go over the blessings I am claiming are belonging presently to those in Christ.

Election (Believers are the elect, they have been chosen by God in Christ)
Adoption (they are adopted through Jesus when they come to faith)
Redemption (The Redemption came by Christ Jesus - Romans 3:23)
Forgiveness (Who is claiming that believers aren't already forgiven of their sins when they come to faith)
Inheritance (We have a guarantee of our inheritance and have been apportioned a lot)
The Holy Spirit (If one does not have the Spirit, they do not belong to Christ)

If Paul is addressing believers and himself, then these would have already happened.
 
The condensed version is that in verses 3-12 Paul is simply giving praise to God for what He's done for the Jewish people. In verse 13 he includes the gentiles and in verse 14 he has brought both in to one unit.
Why would he do this? And who in particular is the Israel he is referring to?

Why would Paul be referring to someone other than the believers in Ephesus without making that distinction clear, as it appears that a natural reading of the text would have the believers in Ephesus understanding that they along with Paul have been given every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.
 
From this:

Commentary on Ephesians Chapter 1:3:12

Who was Chosen before the foundation of the world?

Does Ephesians 1 say that believers in Christ were chosen before the
foundation of the world?
Many Christians believe this, so let’s take a look
and see.

In Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul speaks of the Jews not Christians in general. It
was the Jews who were chosen before the foundation of the world. Let's look
at what Paul himself has to say,

What's your objection?
 
Why would he do this? And who in particular is the Israel he is referring to?

Why would Paul be referring to someone other than the believers in Ephesus without making that distinction clear, as it appears that a natural reading of the text would have the believers in Ephesus understanding that they along with Paul have been given every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

Why assume it's without clear distinction? It may have been very clear to the Ephesian Church, even though it may not be to us. For one thing I would guess that the letter was sent to the church elders. I would expect that they would most likely be Jews. If they were Jews I would think they would clearly understand what Paul is talking about. When they heard the term, "The Beloved" they would have the OT Scriptures as reference. They knew about all of the fathers being baptized into Moses, about the travels in the desert etc.
 
Why assume it's without clear distinction? It may have been very clear to the Ephesian Church, even though it may not be to us.
This is a shot in the dark. Highly doubtful for new Gentile believers to be extremely familiar with Old Testament theology, to the degree that it would be unnecessary to distinguish something like this, where every subsequent generation of the Church has interpreted to apply to them.

For one thing I would guess that the letter was sent to the church elders. I would expect that they would most likely be Jews.
Incorrect, it was written to all of God's people in Ephesus. You're trying to create a context out of assumptions which happen to aid your interpretation that are not only unlikely but counter to the text.

"To the saints who are in Ephesus" Ephesian 1:2a

If they were Jews I would think they would clearly understand what Paul is talking about. When they heard the term, "The Beloved" they would have the OT Scriptures as reference.
In addition to what I already pointed out, remember he distinguishes his audience in particular with the "you" which clearly is pertaining to the new believing Gentiles.

When they heard the term, "The Beloved" they would have the OT Scriptures as reference.
Or they would have thought of Jesus being the Beloved, as he is referred to in the Gospels.

They knew about all of the fathers being baptized into Moses, about the travels in the desert etc.
Well as I said earlier, I don't think the references to the OT aren't there, I do. I just come to the same conclusion about them as you.
 
That is a possible interpretation, and wouldn't directly say I disagree with that.

I however would say that I see it more as a "quality of life" as in we bear the fruit of the future New Creation, and are apart of that kingdom, even having it within us. That our citizenship is of the heavenly Jerusalem, but we still exist in this world as being like a foreigner (to borrow some NT analogies).

I don’t think it’s an issue of quality. He contrasts it with death so to me it concrete.

Paul consistently refers to Jesus as "the Messiah/Christ" which he says that we have every spiritual blessing in him. He uses different ways to say this, be it "in Christ," or "in the Beloved," or "in Him," but I don't think the use of the title "the Christ is accidental or simply out of habit. I think it's integral to the topic.

Ok, I think my about Christ being the rock addresses this question.

A translator would add places because it is a location (remember the preposition of location), this makes it slightly more defined than other places where it might be appropriate to just translate it "things."

Make sense?

I does, but it also makes sense to me that “in” is used of location in things. It seems to me that the neuter gender suggests things as opposed to places. I also think things makes better sense. What are heavenly places? Doesn’t that mean a place with the qualities of heaven. Paul didn’t say the blessings were in heaven, he said they were in heavenly places. I don’t know what or where those places would be. On the other hand things sense, since the Law was a heavenly thing as were all of the blessings they received from God.

Where in the text does it denote that God began to love this person?

The text doesn’t indicate that. The perfect tense does. You agreed that the perfect tense is an act completed in the past with the result of that act continuing to the present. If the act of God loving the Son took place in time in the past that means it had a starting point. Most Christians claim that Christ is eternal and has always existed, not having a starting point. If that is the case there must be a time before the act of God loving Christ.

Which is a good thing I am not saying that.

Then I don’t know what point you were making.

It's not the end to an argument, but when it comes to issues like this (which aren't big) the consensus usually is on to something. It is certainly by far not the most crucial method for determining the correctness of an interpretation.

I don’t know about that. I have seen so much error in theology. It seems to me that orthodoxy depends on what is popular.

Though I bet both the RCC and the Rerformers would probably agree on this text, although Calvinist Reformers would probably read more of their doctrine in than I would.

That may be but my point was that they would argue over orthodoxy.

I agreed with you that it's a reference to an OT passage. In fact, a LONG time ago on this forum I made an exposition of Ephesians 1-3 where I pointed out all the ties in Ephesians 1 with the blessings Israel possessed, but now how they are summed up with the Messiah and belong to Jew and Gentile alike.

I don’t disagree that the blessings also come upon the Gentiles. What I disagree with is that those verses are speaking about the Gentiles.

You do understand that the word "elect" basically means chosen. This is just the verbal form of saying that someone has made a choice or a selection from out of.

It wouldn't make any sense to say, "I have chosen my elect." The elect are chosen by definition of the term.

There is also this text of course.

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood

God's elect who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God to be obedient to Jesus Christ. Sounds like Ephesians 1... Hmm..[

Yes, I well aware of what elect means. I would also suggest that this passage too is speaking of Jews, they are the Jews of the diaspora. I would also suggest that the wording of the passage is not the same as the Greek text. The Greek text says “to the elect sojourners of the diaspora”. I would suggest Young’s literal translation nailed this passage.

YLT 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1Pe 1:1-2 YLT)

I think you could take verse and take the independent clause “Grace to you and peace be multliplied” and place it at the beginning of verse two. It reads find the way it is but If you move the clause It would read more like our language today.


The Jews were a chosen people, and there still exists today a chosen people and they are those who are in Christ.

But Pau is talking about a past people.

What are you talking about?

Let's go over the blessings I am claiming are belonging presently to those in Christ.

Election (Believers are the elect, they have been chosen by God in Christ)
Adoption (they are adopted through Jesus when they come to faith)
Redemption (The Redemption came by Christ Jesus - Romans 3:23)
Forgiveness (Who is claiming that believers aren't already forgiven of their sins when they come to faith)
Inheritance (We have a guarantee of our inheritance and have been apportioned a lot)
The Holy Spirit (If one does not have the Spirit, they do not belong to Christ)

If Paul is addressing believers and himself, then these would have already happened.

I can’t find the post I was referring to. It was the statement about future blessnings.
 
This is a shot in the dark. Highly doubtful for new Gentile believers to be extremely familiar with Old Testament theology, to the degree that it would be unnecessary to distinguish something like this, where every subsequent generation of the Church has interpreted to apply to them.

It's not a shot in the dark. While the Gentiles wouldn't be that familiar with the OT the Jews would.



Incorrect, it was written to all of God's people in Ephesus. You're trying to create a context out of assumptions which happen to aid your interpretation that are not only unlikely but counter to the text.

"To the saints who are in Ephesus" Ephesian 1:2a

Not at all. Yes the letter was address to Church in Ephesus, however, I don’t think Paul made a copy for every one of the Ephesians. It’s likely that he made one copy and sent it to the church. It would then be read and spread among the congregation. I don’t think it’s a stretch at all when we consider Paul’s ministry. What was his custom upon going to new city? The first place he went was synagogue and made converts of the Jews. It only makes sense that Paul would establish the leadership of these new churches with Jews as they were already grounded in the Scriptures. It doesn’t make sense to a take a Greek who knows practically nothing of Jewish history and make him head of the Church. The Christian learning curve would be much easier for a Jew than a Gentile.

KJV Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve. 8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. (Act 19:1-8 KJV)

Also, you mentioned the opening of the letter, “to the saints who are in Ephesus.” Paul uses this same term in chapter two to draw a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles which further supports what I’ve said.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Paul points out in this passage a contrast between the Jews, who were near, and the Gentiles who were, a far off. His conclusion is that the Gentiles who were far off are now fellow citizens with the saints. This seems like a strong indication to me that the saints in the opening of the letter are these same saints.


In addition to what I already pointed out, remember he distinguishes his audience in particular with the "you" which clearly is pertaining to the new believing Gentiles.

I agree, which is no surprise if the “us” also includes the Jewish leadership at Ephesus.


Or they would have thought of Jesus being the Beloved, as he is referred to in the Gospels.

Where is Jesus ever referred to as “The beloved?” Every time the term “The beloved” is used in the NT it is qualified with the exception of the passage we are considering
 
What's your objection?
What's your objection?
Doulos, is doing a great Job at the objection. He is way ahead of me in placing my concerns.

I would add, if Eph 1:4 ~~just as He chose us(the Jews only?) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Did the Jew have a part in choosing to be a Jew? No. Apart from Abraham they were born into it.

Chose~~
eklegw 1586 aor mid ind 3s ---verb. What is the middle voice doing in this then?

Reformed theology requires this to be a passive voice and your teaching requires it to be a passive voice.
 
Doulos, is doing a great Job at the objection. He is way ahead of me in placing my concerns.

I would add, if Eph 1:4 ~~just as He chose us(the Jews only?) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Did the Jew have a part in choosing to be a Jew? No. Apart from Abraham they were born into it.

Chose~~
eklegw 1586 aor mid ind 3s ---verb. What is the middle voice doing in this then?

Reformed theology requires this to be a passive voice and your teaching requires it to be a passive voice.

It seems that Doulos and I disagree on the scope of the passage. He suggest that it is Jewish believer where as I believe it is the Jewish people. Are you saying you agree that it is Jewish believers that the passages is talking about?
 
It seems that Doulos and I disagree on the scope of the passage. He suggest that it is Jewish believer where as I believe it is the Jewish people. Are you saying you agree that it is Jewish believers that the passages is talking about?
I believe that it is anybody who is in Christ. Not dependent on ones ethnicity.
 
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