Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[stovebolts]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

I think hell is misunderstood in the church. I also think that the church used hell as a scare tactic to keep partitioners in line. As a result, in some circles God is always angry and punishes us for our sins. This notion couldn’t be further from the truth.

Scripture says that God desires all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 This gives us our first insight into Gods nature. Jesus, looking over Jerusalem yearns and says, ERV

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets. You stone to death those that God has sent to you. Many, many times I wanted to help your people. I wanted to gather them together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you did not let me.”

We all have struggles in life and often, we can be our own worst enemy. We not only bring pain ( physical or emotional ) to ourselves, but we are also sometimes the cause of pain to others. If we harden our hearts to these pains, we get bound in a state that God never desired for us to experience.

Put it this way. Have you ever, or do you know anyone who has gone through a traumatic experience and they express they feel like they are being tortured, either physically, but more often emotionally. They just can’t escape the pain.

That’s hell and it exists both here on earth, and in the world to come.

God understands our pain, injustice and suffering because he sent his only beloved son who became flesh, and lived among us. Jesus experienced all of that, and so much more.

AA works very well because those who have gone through similar experiences are able to comfort, and guide those who are just coming to a place where they need guidance, friendship and over all, hope that they can escape whatever is holding them down.

How much better is Jesus to guide us into freedom.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

Where do you get the idea that God returns the world to its state before sun?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Where do you get the idea that God returns the world to its state before sun?

That's what I've always been taught.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think hell is misunderstood in the church. I also think that the church used hell as a scare tactic to keep partitioners in line. As a result, in some circles God is always angry and punishes us for our sins. This notion couldn’t be further from the truth.

Scripture says that God desires all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 This gives us our first insight into Gods nature. Jesus, looking over Jerusalem yearns and says, ERV

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets. You stone to death those that God has sent to you. Many, many times I wanted to help your people. I wanted to gather them together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you did not let me.”

We all have struggles in life and often, we can be our own worst enemy. We not only bring pain ( physical or emotional ) to ourselves, but we are also sometimes the cause of pain to others. If we harden our hearts to these pains, we get bound in a state that God never desired for us to experience.

Put it this way. Have you ever, or do you know anyone who has gone through a traumatic experience and they express they feel like they are being tortured, either physically, but more often emotionally. They just can’t escape the pain.

That’s hell and it exists both here on earth, and in the world to come.

God understands our pain, injustice and suffering because he sent his only beloved son who became flesh, and lived among us. Jesus experienced all of that, and so much more.

AA works very well because those who have gone through similar experiences are able to comfort, and guide those who are just coming to a place where they need guidance, friendship and over all, hope that they can escape whatever is holding them down.

How much better is Jesus to guide us into freedom.

To understand the point of hell, one needs to understand that
1) God does not do a kind of moral lobotomy whereby evil people suddenly can only do good.
2)Evil people or people who prefer evil would bring hell into Heaven
3)the spirit is immortal and does not disintegrate
4) therefore those people who preferred wrong are put together as it were. Where else would they go?

Lastly, if no one deserves eternal punishment it ought to be said that no one deserves eternal bliss. The choice, however, is ours.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's what I've always been taught.

It’s not anywhere in scripture, I’m afraid.

 

[T. E. Smith]

therefore those people who preferred wrong are put together as it were. Where else would they go?

They could be annihilated.

God does not do a kind of moral lobotomy whereby evil people suddenly can only do good.

He could do so in theory though right? Cleanse all the sin out from someone who is evil?

the spirit is immortal and does not disintegrate

Why not though? Also I think Ecclesiastes teaches a mortal soul that does not last past death.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They could be annihilated.

They aren’t. Might as well accept the truth rather than ask eternity to adjust itself to our preferences.

He could do so in theory though right? Cleanse all the sin out from someone who is evil?

He doesn’t work against our will as that in itself is evil.

Why not though?

Because tyranny in any form is evil.

The kingdom of Heaven is comprised of volunteers, 100% of them. Surly it’s easy to see why.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

@T.E.Smith, if you want to come to know truth, you will have to abandon what you think sounds good and ask for truth. It’s expensive, I can tell you, but it’s deeply satisfying. The human imagination is like the foam on a beer (or cappuccino if you are from the deep south USA), smells good and is appealing, but it lacks the fullness of the real beverage.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Because tyranny in any form is evil.

Agreed, but God's tyranny demanding complete submission and worship on pain of eternal punishment thus extends past this life (unlike any human tyranny) and chases us into the grave with endless pain of an unimaginable variety. Only those who bow to the tyranny can escape.

I'm sorry, but that is how I see it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed, but God's tyranny demanding complete submission and worship on pain of eternal punishment thus extends past this life (unlike any human tyranny) and chases us into the grave with endless pain of an unimaginable variety. Only those who bow to the tyranny can escape.

My dear Smith, He doesn’t demand it as you put it. Think of it like this.This metaphor is very close to the truth. If your offspring came in and wanted to snuggle with you but unbeknownst to him/her had rolled in dog poop, you would “demand” they wash up. This is for their benefit as well as enabling real snuggling. That is maybe even an understatement of how God feels about the sinful ways and thoughts we cherish. Can you see that this is not tyranny? Or if you prefer, when one marries, one “forsakes all others” as in all other possible partners. Is this seen as tyranny?

I'm sorry, but that is how I see it.

Well, it isn’t the way it is. Do you want truth or to see the matter as God does? I war you, it will make you different. Few want the truth that badly and many think the truth is whatever you prefer. Those never have the truth or only small it’s at best.

The wise man is willing to learn the truth whatever the cost and whoever presents it.

 

[T. E. Smith]

If your offspring came in and wanted to snuggle with you but unbeknownst to him/her had rolled in dog poop, you would “demand” they wash up.

And if they didn't, I would never light them on fire and burn them forever. I'd never even begin to consider such a horrific possibility! Yet that is what God does.

 

[T. E. Smith]

If your offspring came in and wanted to snuggle with you but unbeknownst to him/her had rolled in dog poop, you would “demand” they wash up.

Also if they refused, I'd just bathe them myself. Same way, God can just purify sinners himself if they refuse.

Or if you prefer, when one marries, one “forsakes all others” as in all other possible partners. Is this seen as tyranny?

If the potential husband threatened his soon-to-be wife with eternal punishment, that'd be tyranny, right?

 

[tim-from-pa]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

You are correct. Resurrected to the lake of fire is terrible, but the result is the person perishing. Not living forever in torment. This truth hit me like a ton of bricks when a member in my church said, "We ALL have eternal life! We all do. The question is where are you going to spend it?" It suddenly hit me that life is the opposite of death. The soul that sins shall die. Not the soul that sins shall live in eternal torment. Likewise, Jesus said that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. He did not say 'shall not spend life in eternal torment'. The whole doctrine is based on the doctrine that a human soul (or spirit) is immortal. It is not, Since we die, we are inherently mortal. Eternal life is something that God grants as only God is inherently immortal. The fire is the means to eradicate wickedness. But even that thought crossed my mind one day. What is that fire? Is that the Lord Himself being an all-consuming fire? Is that Shekinah glory that a sinner can't stand in his presence at judgement and live? I'm sure God can kindle a fire that way as well, and what is considered the lake of fire I think is the renovation process that this earth will one day undergo (note when it takes place in the bible near the very end before the new heaven and earth). All wickedness, including Satan, will be destroyed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And if they didn't, I would never light them on fire and burn them forever. I'd never even begin to consider such a horrific possibility! Yet that is what God does.

If you think this is what God is like then it is impossible to explain Him to you. Your starting point is believing Him capable of evil.

 

[stovebolts]

To understand the point of hell, one needs to understand that

… I’ll come back to this.

God does not do a kind of moral lobotomy whereby evil people suddenly can only do good.

I’m not even sure where this idea came from. It’s not that I disagree, but I do question it’s relevance.

Evil people or people who prefer evil would bring hell into Heaven

Misery enjoys company. Some simply don’t know any better. Again, I fail to see the relevance.

therefore those people who preferred wrong are put together as it were. Where else would they go?

Usually couch surfing, from relationship to relationship. Some go to alcohol, drugs, multiple sex partners. They go anywhere the can to escape their inner pain or loss.

To understand the point of hell, one needs to understand that

Ok, full circle.
Hell is more than a destination. It’s deeper than saying, “tormenting forever”.

What we do NOW matters. We are either making this world a better place, or a worse place. What we do and say has an effect on those around us and frankly, lofty ideals or controlling or derogatory speech can torment people until they die.

Hell is more than a destination. It’s also a current state of being. For example, A drug addict is tormented by the lies, stealing and deception they’ve put their families through. They are suffocated in their own offal. How does the family deal with this? Or, what is the families responsibility in this? These “choices” can either offer healing or condemnation within the mind of the “evil one”.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

… I’ll come back to this.

I’m not even sure where this idea came from. It’s not that I disagree, but I do question it’s relevance.

There is the suggestion that people who have lived selfish to downright evil lives ought to still get to go to Heaven. Now either that means that evil is done in heaven cause evil doers are there too or God changes them against their will to do good (lobotomy.) What else is there?

Misery enjoys company. Some simply don’t know any better. Again, I fail to see the relevance.

Hell is the dwelling place of immortal beings who refused to want and do good in life and made themselves into evil people. Now the most evil people tend to be in prisons. But that doesn’t mean prison is enjoyable place to be for them. Do you see what I mean?

Usually couch surfing, from relationship to relationship. Some go to alcohol, drugs, multiple sex partners. They go anywhere the can to escape their inner pain or loss.

Ok, full circle.
Hell is more than a destination. It’s deeper than saying, “tormenting forever”.

How can a place be more than a destination? Can you explain that please?

What we do NOW matters. We are either making this world a better place, or a worse place. What we do and say has an effect on those around us and frankly, lofty ideals or controlling or derogatory speech can torment people until they die.

Agreed.

Hell is more than a destination. It’s also a current state of being. For example, A drug addict is tormented by the lies, stealing and deception they’ve put their families through. They are suffocated in their own offal. How does the family deal with this? Or, what is the families responsibility in this? These “choices” can either offer healing or condemnation within the mind of the “evil one”.

I have some trouble believing that a drug dependent person is tortured by what they’ve done to their families. Most people avoid torture. My impression is they mainly pursue their own sensual pleasure.

 

[Goldwing]

Put it this way. Have you ever, or do you know anyone who has gone through a traumatic experience and they express they feel like they are being tortured, either physically, but more often emotionally. They just can’t escape the pain.

That’s hell and it exists both here on earth, and in the world to come.

Stovebolts, I'm sure you believe, "...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rm. 6:28), but it appears by the above quote you deny the first half of that verse which I'm sure you know, ," For the wages of sin is death". Truth is discovered when we find the harmony of the sum of all the texts on any given subject. As I read through this thread we have Christians discussing apposing views on hell using Bible texts in support of their view. This puts the Bible in a state of internal conflict. We can be sure in such discussions the truth is not correctly understood.

Death in this texts, means end of life, the second death which there is no resurrection, nor an eternity of suffering or torment as many believe. Not at all, in this world as sinful as it is, even our justice system believes the punishment for a crime used be commensurate with the crime. Yet many Christians believe a God more loving than fallen man is less merciful when it comes to the punishment of the wicked. Are not some individuals fare more sinful and evil than others?

The wicked who will be cast into Hell, along with Satan and fallen angles, all will suffer, according to their deeds. While the saints reign with Christ in Heaven the 1,000 yrs. between the first and second resurrection, they will set with Christ in a judgement that will view the lives of the wicked and determine the length of time the wicked will suffer before they are consumed to ashes. Satan and the fallen angles will suffer the longest as they are responsible for leading mankind into sin, But in the end the fires of Hell will go out, and what remains is mere ashes under the feet of the redeemed. (Malachi 4:3).

(2Peter 2:6) If He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is gong to happen to the ungodly. Now for those who believe Hell is eternal, let me ask the question, Is Sodom or Gomorrah burning today?

 

[Goldwing]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

T.E. Smith. You make a very good point, even common sense tells you that a eternal Hell, is contrary to the character of God. Yet many Christians it seems, lack basic common sense.

I will say as a youth I was taught hell was eternal. In my early thirties as a mature adult, I then learned the truth, and learned the phrase, "eternal fire" in (Mat. 18:8) means the effects of the fire are eternal, not the fire itself. With this thought in mind then (Malachi 4:3), and (2Peter 2:6) harmonize, and we don't put the Bible in a stake of internal conflict, and I have come to understand the truth.

Hope this brings you peace of mind.

 

[Goldwing]

Where do you get the idea that God returns the world to its state before sun?

Why would this not make sense, after all, when God had finished six days of creation, He said that all he had made was very good. (Gen. 1:31)