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Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Your right, God could do anything. But in this case never, because God loves us so much He will not take from His creation the right to choose. In fact think on this. The Father, the only member of the trinity who has foreknowledge, knew it advance that sin would enter His creation. Yet, all creation was given the ability of free choice. What does that say about how He values our ability to choose. It also tells us that God does not govern His creation based on foreknowledge, but rather love.
T. E. Smith. I do hope you move upward on this thread and read my post to Stovebolts. You, are sincerely mistaken on your understanding of hell. (Rm. 6:23) clearly states, the wages of sin is, "Death", not everlasting punishment, even though you and many others believe this to be the case.
But very many things have changed since then. And besides, not a single person who walked with God who wrote inspired words from Him (The Bible) thought this. If we want truth, we have to surrender what we imagine is good at times. Our understanding is too limited to think what we imagine is so. God is not resurrecting Eden. It’s a new earth that is promised, not the ancient one.
Where does the Bible report that the punishments for sin is dealt out purely in the length of time one is in hell? I do not recall seeing that to be any sentence.
That’s not hell for many because that’s exactly what they had in this life and want for the next.
And is it also Ok if a spouse refuses to stop dating others? Marriage “demands” surrender, same kind, or else.
Personally I think it’s better to rest or have peace of mind KNOWING God is just rather than try to figure out how hell is just having only partial information. In plain words, we do not understand the gravity of sin unless He reveals it so we cannot possibly understand the justice of God in the matter. I think Jesus would say, “just make sure you don’t go there.” (“unless you repent you will all likewise perish”)
The only verse explicitly indicating a separation is 2 Thess. 1:9: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." Yet here we still get the theme of eternal destruction. Elsewhere Hell is described, the emphasis is always on the destruction/fire/pain/suffering, not on a separation. People like C. S. Lewis might want to emphasize the separation aspect to make Hell more palatable, but that's not the biblical emphasis.
Yes, I read it. So one explanation is annihilationism. That's fine.
The wages of sin is death - I think that verse actually does refer to what happens after death, but it's sometimes expressed as "eternal death." What would it mean to refer to the life in the body? Because everyone dies in the body, believer or no.
Agreed, which is why the Bible also has to add the eternal destruction. Believers will be dissuaded from Hell purely based on the separation. But unbelievers also need the eternal destruction. That's how the Bible controls people.
Perhaps, but this necessarily excludes your view from discussion.
Although it is a common perception, you first need to prove that the Bible teaches Hell is a place of eternal torture. You also need to define what you mean by “torture.”
Anyone could make it their life's work to separate themselves from God but it is an impossibility while we are alive . Why ? God is omnipresent . So in this life no one knows what it is to be truly separated from God ! God and all of His attributes are still close to you even if you don't want them to be .
Hell is a special place prepared for Satan and his cohorts it is not God's intention for humans to go there but yet they choose this destination .
Sounds good to me.
Is God present in Hell? If not, is he then truly not omnipresent?
Oxford dictionary on torture: the act of causing somebody severe pain in order to punish them or make them say or do something. Can we agree that Hell is 1) severe pain, and 2) punishment ? Therefore, it is torture. Luke 16:23 speaks of a rich man "in Hades, where he was in torment."
That’s fine.
Your conclusion doesn’t follow, especially with the use of “torment.” Does torment necessarily equal torture?
Torment is just a translation. All we care about is the Greek word. But, ok: Oxford definition of torment: extreme pain, especially mental pain; a person or thing that causes this. Examples given in the dictionary: "She suffered years of mental torment after her son's death." "The cries of a man in torment." "The flies were a terrible torment." For synonyms, it gives agony, suffering, torture, pain, and anguish. All of which describe Hell well.
Tim, thanks for your post, readers on this thread need to know, that everlasting torment, is not a correct understanding of hell, it is as many know a teaching of Satan, to discredit the love and justice of God, thus turning many away from every trying to understand Him. It certainly seems that T.E. Smith is having a hard time over this issue, as countless others unknown to us are as well.
A "hard time"? I just cited Revelation 20:10 "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever" and Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." Biblically Hell is actually everlasting torment, that is, torment forever and ever.
Why must he be still be suffering forever? Christ is no longer atoning for anyone currently in Hell, but only for everyone on Earth. The Bible does not articulate any of what you say here, which is maybe why it makes no sense.
Sure God will be in hell BUT how will God reveal Himself in hell ? God will not be sharing the good things , there will be no escape from the wrath of God . Where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched .
Sounds good to me.
Prayers appreciated. I guess we'll see how it turns out.
I did not state my point well, but you have here helped me out. What I was trying to get to, is that torment is not always caused by something external, it can be internal. That is, it is not necessarily physical. It can be emotional and mental anguish.
It can matter, as sometimes people equate torture with something physical being done to someone, while torment can be seen as also psychological.
Not necessarily. Note that it seems we have levels of punishment for unbelievers and levels of reward for believers, according to Paul in 1 Cor. 3:11-15.
It does, however, seem to require more scriptural and more nuanced linguistic investigation than you have given it.