Eternal Security of the Believer

[Alfred Persson]

67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, "You also were with Jesus of Nazareth."
68 But he denied it, saying, "I neither know nor understand what you are saying." And he went out on the porch, and a rooster crowed.
69 And the servant girl saw him again, and began to say to those who stood by, "This is one of them."
70 But he denied it again. And a little later those who stood by said to Peter again, "Surely you are one of them; for you are a Galilean, and your speech shows it."
71 Then he began to curse and swear, "I do not know this Man of whom you speak!"
72 A second time the rooster crowed. Then Peter called to mind the word that Jesus had said to him, "Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." And when he thought about it, he wept. (Mk. 14:67-72 NKJ)

Compare:

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
(2 Tim. 2:11-13 NKJ)

I believe Peter's denial and subsequent restoration to God's good graces proves believers who have truly "died with Christ" cannot lose their salvation.

Can anyone prove different?

When Paul says "if we deny Him, He will also deny us", it cannot apply to those written in the book of life before God created for they were written in before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11).

It therefore applies to those who were written into the book of life AFTER God created---these also can be "blotted out" if they fail.

They never "sold all they owned, even their own life, and died for Christ." They held back. And therefore, when they draw back, God has no pleasure in them.

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb. 10:38-39 NKJ)

Eternal Security applies only to the Elect of God, not the "non-Elect" written into the book of life AFTER creation:

Everyone has every opportunity to choose life and join the Elect. That is required by the presence of names in the Book of Life that are not "The Elect":

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

The promise is a fraud if the name cannot be blotted out from the Book of Life. Therefore, this is not spoken to the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out. Elected before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11) their names were written "before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; Eph. 1:4). As they are predestined unto salvation (Rom. 8:29) they overcome.

Therefore, names can exist in the Book of life that are not "Elect", the "undetermined" could be written in or blotted out. They have free will choice and equal chance to be saved with the Elect. For example, the names of the wicked men chasing David potentially could be written in the book of life. David asks God blot their names out so that doesn't happen:

May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NAS)

An Aramaic Psalms Targum explains how some ancients understood this verse:

Give iniquity for their iniquity, and let them not be purified to enter the assembly of your righteous ones. (Ps. 69:28 PST)

The Book of Life has the names of the Elect and potentially the undetermined (who could choose to go either way). The latter are judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13,15), which determines which books their names appear in on Judgment Day.

God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ). If the "undetermined" do what is right, their names won't be blotted out from the Book of Life.

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (Jn. 3:14-21 NKJ)

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. (Rom. 2:11-13 NKJ)

See why God is just and Fair to elect some and not others [against their will] , at my site:

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

 

[Exeter]

This reads true:
John 1:11-14 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. (12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This reads true:
John 1:11-14 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. (12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Without a comment on what you believe this text says, bolded words communicate different things to different people. To me the text teaches Eternal Security of the believer, "born of God" and not "the will of man." But what does it say to you?

 

[JLB]

Eternal Security applies only to the Elect of God, not the "non-Elect" written into the book of life AFTER creation:

Could you provide the scriptures that uses the phrase eternal security?



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Salvation is obtained the same for all people: obeying Jesus Christ.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Whether “elect” or not, whether Jew or Gentile, salvation is obtained the same for all, as there is no partiality with God.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11






JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Could you provide the scriptures that uses the phrase eternal security?



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10

Just like the word "Trinity" which can't be found in the Bible, the teaching is Scriptural.

"Eternal security" is a theological term that those Christ gives Eternal Life to can NEVER PERISH, nor can any man pluck them from Christ's saving Hand:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Jn. 10:28 KJV)

"Any man" (=any human being) would include we ourselves, we cannot pluck ourselves out of His hand

You cited Paul to imply the Elect might NOT obtain salvation if Paul didn't endure all things for the elect.

You prove too much! Now we not only have Christ as necessary FOR SALVATION, we have Paul!

Clearly that CANNOT be what Paul meant:

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
(1 Cor. 3:5-7 NKJ)

What Paul said to Timothy he repeats elsewhere using different words, and he is NOT making himself necessary for salvation.

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
(1 Cor. 9:19-22 NKJ)

Christ saves. But people learn about Christ through Paul. Paul endured all things, became all things to all people, that they might be saved THROUGH HIS MINISTRY.

He is NOT saying they can't be saved by hearing about Christ from someone else.

As for the implication election is impossible because it means God is partial, that also is incorrect. Everyone, including the elect, are saved THROUGH FAITH (Eph. 2:8). The non-elect have every opportunity to have faith in Christ. They will hear the gospel of Christ, whether in this life or the next, where their free will is restored, and all delusion burnt away. And if they choose to believe in the LORD Jesus Christ at that time, they will rise to a resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

 

[JLB]

Eternal security" is a theological term that those Christ gives Eternal Life to can NEVER PERISH, nor can any man pluck them from Christ's saving Hand:

Eternal Security is a man made term just like Trinity is a man made term.

Those who do not believe the Gospel are not saved.

A person must believe in order to be saved.

Believers are saved.
Unbelievers are lost.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12




JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Compare:

I believe Peter's denial and subsequent restoration to God's good graces proves believers who have truly "died with Christ" cannot lose their salvation.

Can anyone prove different?

When Paul says "if we deny Him, He will also deny us", it cannot apply to those written in the book of life before God created for they were written in before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11).

It therefore applies to those who were written into the book of life AFTER God created---these also can be "blotted out" if they fail.

They never "sold all they owned, even their own life, and died for Christ." They held back. And therefore, when they draw back, God has no pleasure in them.

Eternal Security applies only to the Elect of God, not the "non-Elect" written into the book of life AFTER creation:

Everyone has every opportunity to choose life and join the Elect. That is required by the presence of names in the Book of Life that are not "The Elect":

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

The promise is a fraud if the name cannot be blotted out from the Book of Life. Therefore, this is not spoken to the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out. Elected before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11) their names were written "before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; Eph. 1:4). As they are predestined unto salvation (Rom. 8:29) they overcome.

Therefore, names can exist in the Book of life that are not "Elect", the "undetermined" could be written in or blotted out. They have free will choice and equal chance to be saved with the Elect. For example, the names of the wicked men chasing David potentially could be written in the book of life. David asks God blot their names out so that doesn't happen:

May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NAS)

An Aramaic Psalms Targum explains how some ancients understood this verse:

Give iniquity for their iniquity, and let them not be purified to enter the assembly of your righteous ones. (Ps. 69:28 PST)

The Book of Life has the names of the Elect and potentially the undetermined (who could choose to go either way). The latter are judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13,15), which determines which books their names appear in on Judgment Day.

God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ). If the "undetermined" do what is right, their names won't be blotted out from the Book of Life.



11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. (Rom. 2:11-13 NKJ)

See why God is just and Fair to elect some and not others [against their will] , at my site:

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

Is repentance from sin necessary to be eternally secure or an optional extra? Or is your position the eternally secure naturally repent and so we can who is eternally secure by whether they repent of sin or blissfully continue enjoying its pleasures knowing they’re bound for Heaven

Without a comment on what you believe this text says, bolded words communicate different things to different people. To me the text teaches Eternal Security of the believer, "born of God" and not "the will of man." But what does it say to you?

Whosoever will can come to
God and be forgiven and saved. No hint of this being a “permanent no matter what you later choose” arrangement.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Compare:

Is repentance from sin necessary to be eternally secure or an optional extra? Or is your position the eternally secure naturally repent and so we can who is eternally secure by whether they repent of sin or blissfully continue enjoying its pleasures knowing they’re bound for Heaven

Whosoever will can come to
God and be forgiven and saved. No hint of this being a “permanent no matter what you later choose” arrangement.

Yes. Repentance leading to Faith in Christ is necessary for ANYONE to be saved, including the elect.

Election seems unfair until you realize WHY God did it for some and not others.

God is Omniscient. Before He created, He saw TWO versions of everyone who would come into existence.
1)The Unfallen version if the Fall never happened---so it never existed except in the Mind of God.
2)The Fallen Version that actually did come into existence, because the Fall happened.

Because Free Will isn't a fraud, it follows a percentage of the Unfallen would choose evil, but others choose good.

By a special act of God's Omniscience, He foreknew those who loved Him, who choose good, and experienced them "before" all the others who didn't love Him. God loved them even more.

BUT God realized some of these (if not most) would be lost if He created, because they would be corrupted by our Fallen world.

Therefore, lest even a single hair on the head of God's beloved children be lost, God predestined they will be conformed to the image of His Son.

God could not in good conscience predestine those who did NOT want life with Him, and force them against their will to live with Him. That would be evil, and cruel.

BUT to keep this fair, God ordains salvation is possible only by faith in Christ and ANYONE who chooses to have faith in Christ, whether they are predestined or not, can be saved.

So all the texts you cite that salvation is possible to whosoever believes, are 100% true.

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[Exeter]

Without a comment on what you believe this text says, bolded words communicate different things to different people. To me the text teaches Eternal Security of the believer, "born of God" and not "the will of man." But what does it say to you?

It says Christ gives the right to become children of God to whoever receives Him.

I thought I'd emphasise the necessity of receiving Christ before that can happen.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It says Christ gives the right to become children of God to whoever receives Him.

I thought I'd emphasise the necessity of receiving Christ before that can happen.

The post right above yours explains my position precisely. I agree with you. But Scripture ALSO teaches predestination of the elect unto salvation. BOTH are true.

 

[Exeter]

The post right above yours explains my position precisely. I agree with you. But Scripture ALSO teaches predestination of the elect unto salvation. BOTH are true.

Yeah, predestining the elect unto salvation is a no brainer, a simple act of grace, but foreknowing who will be the elect implies an intimacy that God enjoys with those who receive Christ, and go on to become conformed to His image.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[JLB]

But Scripture ALSO teaches predestination of the elect unto salvation.

Please show us the scripture with context that says the elect are predestined unto salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Lord desires the elect to obtain salvation; to obtain eternal life.


Here’s how —

• giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11

• Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Please show us the scripture with context that says the elect are predestined unto salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Lord desires the elect to obtain salvation; to obtain eternal life.


Here’s how —

• giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11

• Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

JLB

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:3-7 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yeah, predestining the elect unto salvation is a no brainer, a simple act of grace, but foreknowing who will be the elect implies an intimacy that God enjoys with those who receive Christ, and go on to become conformed to His image.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

A problem with that theory, we are saved by grace not works and its not "of ourselves":
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 NKJ)

But you are partially right, just applying it to the "wrong version" of us. The Unfallen Version which God intimately knew in His foreknowledge, is not the Fallen Version we are today.

This fallen world corrupts everyone born into it, that is why God predestined the Elect, because He wants the "Unfallen Version" to exist, which it will after our regeneration.

But until then, we are not that Unfallen Version, therefore election is not based upon anything we are or do now.

 

[JLB]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:3-7 NKJ)

Yes, we are chosen to be holy and without blame, before Him in love… Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14



Nothing so far about being predestined to salvation that can never be lost.


Try again.






JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, we are chosen to be holy and without blame, before Him in love… Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14



Nothing so far about being predestined to salvation that can never be lost.


Try again.






JLB

No, I won't. If the plain meaning of scripture doesn't convince you, i can't. Won't even try.

 

[T. E. Smith]

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

As you have possibly guessed from my previous posts, I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints and agree that the doctrine is unbiblical. But these words I quoted above ^^ seem too harsh and unfair. Those who believe in the perseverance of the saints are wrong but they don't have hard, impenitent hearts. And I don't think that the Bible teaches that those who hold to the perseverance of the saints are going to Hell, which is what you seem to be implying.

 

[JLB]

As you have possibly guessed from my previous posts, I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints and agree that the doctrine is unbiblical. But these words I quoted above ^^ seem too harsh and unfair. Those who believe in the perseverance of the saints are wrong but they don't have hard, impenitent hearts. And I don't think that the Bible teaches that those who hold to the perseverance of the saints are going to Hell, which is what you seem to be implying.

I simply quoted a scripture, and stated that salvation is obtained for all people the same. IOW’s there is no special select group of people that are given salvation because they are chosen to be saved. Whether Jew or Gentile each person must comply with what the Lord has set forth for us to obtain eternal life.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

What do you mean by “perseverance of the saints”?




JLB

 

[T. E. Smith]

JLB perseverance of the saints is the traditional term for eternal security.

 

[JLB]

JLB perseverance of the saints is the traditional term for eternal security.

Oh, ok.


I don’t believe in the doctrine of eternal security.