Eternal Security of the Believer

[Alfred Persson]

As you have possibly guessed from my previous posts, I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints and agree that the doctrine is unbiblical. But these words I quoted above ^^ seem too harsh and unfair. Those who believe in the perseverance of the saints are wrong but they don't have hard, impenitent hearts. And I don't think that the Bible teaches that those who hold to the perseverance of the saints are going to Hell, which is what you seem to be implying.

Of course I agree, theological differences God will sort out when we die, instantly no doubt.

But I'm curious, how inclusive your position is.

I maintain all who truly call upon the Name of the LORD Jesus, that is: are willing to sell all they own, including their own life, are saved regardless their knowledge of Christian doctrine:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." (Rom. 10:9-13 NKJ)

[Believing in the Resurrection of Christ is an essential part of calling upon the real Jesus Christ of Holy Scripture, hence Paul lists it as necessary to true belief in the LORD Jesus]


37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. (Matt. 10:37-39 NKJ)

In other words, it not about theological correctness, its about the heart. If a cultist (fill in the blank) truly call upon Jesus for salvation, having faith He will save them---not holding anything back, that person is saved even if his cult theology is garbage:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." (Heb. 10:38 NKJ)

There was a time I would dispute anyone who didn't believe in the Orthodox Trinitarian definition of the Name of the Son of God, could be saved.

But I've since learned how powerful "confirmation bias" can be and now suspect God looks more to the heart than the head.

What say you? Do you dispute my position? Why? Make your best arguments. If I err, I will repent.

Can anyone believe God would reject the believer in His Son who sacrificed his very life sharing what he thought was the Christian Gospel, but was wrong about the Holy Trinity? Recall its official statement wasn't correctly made until the council of Nicea, approx. 325 A.D..

 

[T. E. Smith]

Oh, ok.


I don’t believe in the doctrine of eternal security.

Sure use whatever term you like. I use perseverance of the saints because 1) Calvin used it, and 2) some Arminians claim to hold to eternal security but not perseverance, these theologians mean that everything is secure on God's end, but we ourselves can still fall away.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Alfred Persson
Don't repent if you make a mistake, making a mistake is no sin

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson
Don't repent if you make a mistake, making a mistake is no sin

That deftly didn't answer the question. Perhaps the Question is worthy of its own thread.

 

[Exeter]

A problem with that theory, we are saved by grace not works and its not "of ourselves":
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 NKJ)

But you are partially right, just applying it to the "wrong version" of us. The Unfallen Version which God intimately knew in His foreknowledge, is not the Fallen Version we are today.

This fallen world corrupts everyone born into it, that is why God predestined the Elect, because He wants the "Unfallen Version" to exist, which it will after our regeneration.

But until then, we are not that Unfallen Version, therefore election is not based upon anything we are or do now.

Gnostic alert.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Gnostic alert.

You didn't understand what I wrote. Its not gnostic. It logically follows from the scriptural data, as I have proved repeatedly. I suggest you try again.

 

[n2thelight]

God is Omniscient. Before He created, He saw TWO versions of everyone who would come into existence.
1)The Unfallen version if the Fall never happened---so it never existed except in the Mind of God.
2)The Fallen Version that actually did come into existence, because the Fall happened.

God created all souls at the same time had satan not rebelled man would not have been made flesh

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

ephesians1

 

[JLB]

Sure use whatever term you like. I use perseverance of the saints because 1) Calvin used it, and 2) some Arminians claim to hold to eternal security but not perseverance, these theologians mean that everything is secure on God's end, but we ourselves can still fall away.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Jesus warned that we must remain in Him.

In Him is eternal life.

Do you believe people who are not “in Christ” are saved or lost?


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ…


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[T. E. Smith]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Jesus warned that we must remain in Him.

In Him is eternal life.

Do you believe people who are not “in Christ” are saved or lost?


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ…


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

I don't believe in salvation or in being spiritually lost, so neither But I think the Bible clearly teaches that someone can be a true believer and then leave. In addition, I definitely believed the Gospel for many years. Anyone who tells me I did not believe, that I only thought I believed (whatever that means) is extremely arrogant to make that judgment, to say the least.

 

[T. E. Smith]

God created all souls at the same time had satan not rebelled man would not have been made flesh

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

ephesians1

The belief that man would not have been flesh without the Fall--yeah that is definitely gnostic.

 

[JLB]

But I think the Bible clearly teaches that someone can be a true believer and then leave.

Amen.

I definitely believed the Gospel for many years. Anyone who tells me I did not believe, that I only thought I believed (whatever that means) is extremely arrogant to make that judgment, to say the least.

Yes, His sheep, those who believe, can indeed wander away from Him.


God truly loves us, even when we walk away from Him, and is overjoyed if we return.


“And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. Luke 15:20





JLB

 

[T. E. Smith]

Amen.


Yes, His sheep, those who believe, can indeed wander away from Him.


God truly loves us, even when we walk away from Him, and is overjoyed if we return.


“And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. Luke 15:20





JLB

In one parable, God leaves 99 sheep and goes to find 1. Is God searching for me too?

 

[JLB]

In one parable, God leaves 99 sheep and goes to find 1. Is God searching for me too?

I think the one thing we can agree on is God will rejoice if you choose to return to Him.

 

[JLB]

Is God searching for me too?

Some He hopes will return, while others He sends His shepherd to search for the little sheep who become lost.


JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

God created all souls at the same time had satan not rebelled man would not have been made flesh

YES He did, but that is not pertinent to what I propose.

I have scriptural reasons for saying this, for deducing Omniscient God knew all things including what His Creation would have been without the Fall.

1)God is Omniscient. Is. 46:8-10; Mt. 6:31-32; Heb. 4:13

2)God Elected according to foreknowledge of something in us:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1 Pet. 1:2 KJV)

God did NOT Elect according to His foreknowledge of something in us:
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (Rom. 9:11 KJV)

Therefore, as Scripture is 100% correct and what is correct never contradicts itself,

these two contrary statements require a "missing context" wherein BOTH statements are 100% correct.

So God created all souls at the same time, but He elected before Creation, before the foundation of the world:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(Eph. 1:4-7 KJV)

God elected according to the LOVE the Unfallen Version free chose to give Him, when He loved them First.

But the Unfallen Version never came into existence, therefore when God applies the benefits of that election to the Fallen Version, election is not predicated upon what God knew the Fallen would do in this life. They were elected BEFORE they did good or bad.

Therefore, Eternal Security is a logical result of God Electing before we did good or bad, and not according to what we are or will be now.

 

[Cooper]

Compare:



I believe Peter's denial and subsequent restoration to God's good graces proves believers who have truly "died with Christ" cannot lose their salvation.

Can anyone prove different?

When Paul says "if we deny Him, He will also deny us", it cannot apply to those written in the book of life before God created for they were written in before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11).

It therefore applies to those who were written into the book of life AFTER God created---these also can be "blotted out" if they fail.

They never "sold all they owned, even their own life, and died for Christ." They held back. And therefore, when they draw back, God has no pleasure in them.

Eternal Security applies only to the Elect of God, not the "non-Elect" written into the book of life AFTER creation:

Everyone has every opportunity to choose life and join the Elect. That is required by the presence of names in the Book of Life that are not "The Elect":

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

The promise is a fraud if the name cannot be blotted out from the Book of Life. Therefore, this is not spoken to the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out. Elected before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11) their names were written "before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; Eph. 1:4). As they are predestined unto salvation (Rom. 8:29) they overcome.

Therefore, names can exist in the Book of life that are not "Elect", the "undetermined" could be written in or blotted out. They have free will choice and equal chance to be saved with the Elect. For example, the names of the wicked men chasing David potentially could be written in the book of life. David asks God blot their names out so that doesn't happen:

May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NAS)

An Aramaic Psalms Targum explains how some ancients understood this verse:

Give iniquity for their iniquity, and let them not be purified to enter the assembly of your righteous ones. (Ps. 69:28 PST)

The Book of Life has the names of the Elect and potentially the undetermined (who could choose to go either way). The latter are judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13,15), which determines which books their names appear in on Judgment Day.

God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ). If the "undetermined" do what is right, their names won't be blotted out from the Book of Life.



11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. (Rom. 2:11-13 NKJ)

See why God is just and Fair to elect some and not others [against their will] , at my site:

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

Clearly Peter was 'one of them.' He was in a stressful situation and was scared. He immediately regretted denying his own position as a disciple, but I am not sure if he said anything against Jesus. From memory, I don't think he did. His regret indicates the true state of his heart and is evidence of his love and passion for Jesus.

 

[Cooper]

Just like the word "Trinity" which can't be found in the Bible, the teaching is Scriptural.

"Eternal security" is a theological term that those Christ gives Eternal Life to can NEVER PERISH, nor can any man pluck them from Christ's saving Hand:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Jn. 10:28 KJV)

"Any man" (=any human being) would include we ourselves, we cannot pluck ourselves out of His hand

You cited Paul to imply the Elect might NOT obtain salvation if Paul didn't endure all things for the elect.

You prove too much! Now we not only have Christ as necessary FOR SALVATION, we have Paul!

Clearly that CANNOT be what Paul meant:

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
(1 Cor. 3:5-7 NKJ)

What Paul said to Timothy he repeats elsewhere using different words, and he is NOT making himself necessary for salvation.

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
(1 Cor. 9:19-22 NKJ)

Christ saves. But people learn about Christ through Paul. Paul endured all things, became all things to all people, that they might be saved THROUGH HIS MINISTRY.

He is NOT saying they can't be saved by hearing about Christ from someone else.

As for the implication election is impossible because it means God is partial, that also is incorrect. Everyone, including the elect, are saved THROUGH FAITH (Eph. 2:8). The non-elect have every opportunity to have faith in Christ. They will hear the gospel of Christ, whether in this life or the next, where their free will is restored, and all delusion burnt away. And if they choose to believe in the LORD Jesus Christ at that time, they will rise to a resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, those who need to take heed are the unfaithful, the backslider.

 

[Cooper]

Yes. Repentance leading to Faith in Christ is necessary for ANYONE to be saved, including the elect.

Election seems unfair until you realize WHY God did it for some and not others.

God is Omniscient. Before He created, He saw TWO versions of everyone who would come into existence.
1)The Unfallen version if the Fall never happened---so it never existed except in the Mind of God.
2)The Fallen Version that actually did come into existence, because the Fall happened.

Because Free Will isn't a fraud, it follows a percentage of the Unfallen would choose evil, but others choose good.

By a special act of God's Omniscience, He foreknew those who loved Him, who choose good, and experienced them "before" all the others who didn't love Him. God loved them even more.

BUT God realized some of these (if not most) would be lost if He created, because they would be corrupted by our Fallen world.

Therefore, lest even a single hair on the head of God's beloved children be lost, God predestined they will be conformed to the image of His Son.

God could not in good conscience predestine those who did NOT want life with Him, and force them against their will to live with Him. That would be evil, and cruel.

BUT to keep this fair, God ordains salvation is possible only by faith in Christ and ANYONE who chooses to have faith in Christ, whether they are predestined or not, can be saved.

So all the texts you cite that salvation is possible to whosoever believes, are 100% true.

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Salvation is for 'whosoever believes.' This was God's plan and purpose from the beginning. ALL are elected, but few there are who accept.

 

[Cooper]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:3-7 NKJ)

There is another side to the story. The same Bible that teaches sovereign election also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_5:24; Rom_10:9, Rom_10:13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Clearly Peter was 'one of them.' He was in a stressful situation and was scared. He immediately regretted denying his own position as a disciple, but I am not sure if he said anything against Jesus. From memory, I don't think he did. His regret indicates the true state of his heart and is evidence of his love and passion for Jesus.

I'm not disputing your interpretation Peter's sorror indicates his denial was not a denial of Christ's claims, only that he knew Christ.

I concede that point. You are right, I am wrong BUT there are texts which teach Eternal Security, once you are saved you are always saved:

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (Jn. 10:26-29 KJV)

However, I do not ignore those Bible verses that say followers can lose their salvation.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny (720 ἀρνέομαι arneomai) Him, He also will deny (720 ἀρνέομαι arneomai) us.
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny (720 ἀρνέομαι arneomai) Himself. (2 Tim. 2:12-13 NKJ)

As scripture is 100% true BOTH statements are correct and its OUR understanding of their context that is inaccurate, that makes them seem contrary.

This is like two blind men describing what an elephant feels like. One is holding the tail, the other the elephant's trunk. When they describe the elephant, they cannot see the elephant's body connecting the two. So they get mad at each other and each says the other is "lying" or "just plain wrong."

In both Christ's words and Paul's the "elephant's body" that makes Eternal Security AND the possibility a former professor of Christ can lose his salvation, is in who the confessor is.

Only Christ's sheep heard His voice and follow Christ fully, those who are not Christ's sheep (the TARES sown among the WHEAT), only seemed to be Christian for a time and then they deny His claims.

In other words, Salvation is open to whosoever believe, both elect and non-elect. Those who truly confess Christ cannot perish, no one can pluck them from God's hand. But as for those not Christ's sheep, they can profess Christ for a time but they never really believed and end up denying His claims, so He denies them.

Notice how Paul seems to allude to Peter's denial as being different than the denial that happens in verse 12:

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny (720 ἀρνέομαι arneomai) Him, He also will deny (720 ἀρνέομαι arneomai) us.
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny (720 ἀρνέομαι arneomai) Himself. (2 Tim. 2:12-13 NKJ)

Although its the same Greek word the "denials" are different, in verse 12 "deny" is future tense (ἀρνήσεται) which points to a future denial by Christ. In verse 13 it is like Peter's faithless denial and Jesus cannot "deny himself."

So I concede Peter is not proof of eternal security, or not slam dunk proof.

The point you made about his sorrow and repentance right away confirms his denial of knowing Christ was not a denial Jesus is the Christ.

BUT fact remains, Jesus taught Eternal Security and YOU have a problem I don't have. You aren't believing Christ's teaching on this.

The only way you can reconcile BOTH texts is how I did it, deduce there is an elephant's body connecting the tail and trunk so both blind men are being truthful when they describe what the elephant feels like to them.


Christ made Peter reverse his denials:

15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."
16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. (Jn. 21:15-17 NKJ)