Eternal security or conditional security?

[Eugene]

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

This sounds like a testimony of Moses’ judgment. You quote Rom 11:20 because of unbelief they were broken off.

In Num 20:12 God told Moses “Because ye believed me not . . “ What was the consequence? Moses would not be allowed to take the congregation into the land given them.

Is there an even more drastic judgment to be taken against Moses? How about Moses: Deut 32:50-51 because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel,go up and DIE in mount Nebo. Does this sound like being broken off, a sin unto death, or going to hell?

Surely this once dear child of God (Moses) cannot have grace applied even as the prodigal son of Luke 15:11-32: BREAK HIM OFF because of unbelief.

Jude 1:5 also verifies this: . . the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

 

[JohnDB]

So then, those who will be cast into the lake of fire, which is described as being an eternal fire (Matt 25:41, Jule 7) also have eternal life?

Yet, the Bible calls the lake of fire the "second death", where souls will exist forever.

Can you provide a verse that says that they will exist forever in the second death or lake of fire?

 

[JLB]

Not even Luke 8:13 teaches this idea.

The Bible does teach that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

The Bible does teach that those who have been given the gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, eternal life cannot be lost, and those saved WILL NEVER PERISH.

The Bible teaches eternal security, not loss of salvation.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Eternal life or salvation is not mentioned in Romans 11:29. The "gift" singular of God is eternal life "in Christ Jesus". Relationship with Jesus Christ is eternal life. [John 17:3 this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.]

By your "reasoning" gifts, plural, together equal eternal life, when The "gift" singular, not gifts plural, is what the scripture teaches us is eternal life. Relationship with God is a gift, not several gifts combined together.




By using no actual scripture, but stating your opinion, and tagging it with a scripture reference, you can get the bible to say whatever you want.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I have repeatedly offered the context and language of Paul throughout the book of Romans and specifically Romans 6, that deals with the part of this verse that you won't discuss... the wages of sin is death.

There are two contrasting elements that are portrayed in this verse: Life and Death.

• The gift from God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. You must be in Christ Jesus, to have eternal life.

• The wages of sin is death. By context, death is eternal death, as contrasted by eternal life. By contrast death must be "earned" as a worker earns a wage, as opposed to the "gift" from God which is eternal life in Christ Jesus. A person must employ their will and effort to sin, in which they will receive their wages... death.

This is completely supported by the language Paul uses, in the previous verse's.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The will and effort to present [put in position] ourselves as a slave to the sin in our flesh, to gratify it's desires, is clearly seen by the language Paul uses. The end result of this effort is we will receive the wages for our effort in the form of eternal death.

Paul teaches this vital truth throughout Romans to us, and teaches us how to have victory, as well as warns us of the consequences of disobedience. The warning is made crystal clear by Paul. The wages of sin is death.

Examine these phrase's:

• 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace... for the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:12-14,23

• 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, [for the wages of sin is death] or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, [for the wages of sin is death] but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, [for the wages of sin is death] but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; [for the wages of sin is death] but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

The language is undeniable. The warning is clear.

Those who employ their will and effort to live in sin, will receive the wages of sin which is death; eternal death.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, Paul is saying that one who has believed in Christ for (purpose, cause) salvation is saved, and is holding fast the word. They've done that. They are saved.

I showed that the verb "hold fast" (vs.2) is in the Greek Present Tense. That means "you are saved if you (presently) hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine). But OSAS doctrine ignores the tense, even changing it to a past tense, so it can say you are saved if you 'hold fast' the word in the past, but you are not now.

I don't think it reasonable that one change the Greek tense of the verb "hold fast" from a Present Tense to a past tense in order to defend a particular brand of OSAS. How can I honestly tell someone the verb is in a past tense when it is in reality in the Present Tense?

 

[Eugene]

Cast off that which you were saved by and you no longer have that which you are saved by.

How do you do that? Is it something akin to Eph 4:30 ". . ye are sealed unto the day of redemption," but can unzip and cast off that sealing at will?

 

[FreeGrace]

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

But the question was about verses that speak of giving away one's salvation/eternal life. This agricultural metaphor is about being cut off, which is not an action from the branches themselves.

This was my question:
"Assuming this question is directed at the possibility of giving away one's gift of eternal life, is there a verse or passage that suggests the possibility?"

I believe the passage is in the context of Israel, being chosen to serve God, had been cut off from serving Him.

It still remains that eternal life is a gift of God, and that God's gifts are irrevocable. And I haven't found any verse that indicates that one who has eternal life is able to give it away.

 

[FreeGrace]

reba said: ↑
But JLB what of this verse
Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The context of "pluck them out of My Father's hand" is a reference to His sheep, which in this context, refer to His disciples.

Actually, the context for "sheep" begins back in v.7:
7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Conclusion: those who "enter" by Him are His sheep, and will be saved.

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd... My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The sheep that Jesus refers to here specifically, are His disciples, that hear His voice and follow Him.

He plainly refers to other sheep, but these His sheep [disciples who were specifically chosen by Him], to reproduce His life and message and teaching and be sent to teach the next generation of disciples, were were to be sent out [Apostle means: sent one]

Scholars say that "other sheep" refer to Gentile believers. That's what "not of this fold" refers to.

Do you believe that a person can be "in Christ", then later be removed from Him?
JLB

I don't because no verse says that. In fact, Paul said those who have been sealed IN HIM have been sealed for the day of redemption.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise Eph 1:13
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed FOR the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

I find it interesting that EVEN grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't break the sealing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can you provide a verse that says that they will exist forever in the second death or lake of fire?

When speaking of the afterlife, Jesus said this: "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:44, 46, 48.

Then, specifically, in Matt 25:46, Jesus said this about unbelievers: "“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jude 7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

If the teaching of anniliation were true, why would Jesus and Jude speak of "eternal punishment", or what would be significant about a place "where their worm does not die"?

 

[FreeGrace]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Eternal life or salvation is not mentioned in Romans 11:29.

Why would it be necessary for either to be in 11:29? Paul had already described both justification and eternal life specifically as gifts of God. And he never excluded either gift from what he wrote in 11:29. The linkage is so clear. And Paul never described anything that Israel had as "gifts". So we can know that 11:29 is not about what Israel had.

The "gift" singular of God is eternal life "in Christ Jesus". Relationship with Jesus Christ is eternal life. [John 17:3 this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.]

Yes, it is singular. However, Paul mentioned 3 gifts of God before he wrote 11:29.
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

It is because of these 3 gifts that Paul used the plural in 11:29.

By using no actual scripture, but stating your opinion, and tagging it with a scripture reference, you can get the bible to say whatever you want.

I'm perplexed as to why you continue to make this kind of claim. The verse that I have "tagged" is the verse that supports my claim. Just put your "mouse" on the "tag" and you'll see what the verse says.

We all state our opinions, but I provide verses that that state what I state.

However, I wish anyone who disagrees with what I have stated would explain to me what the verses of the OP are teaching, if not eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So, Paul is saying that one who has believed in Christ for (purpose, cause) salvation is saved, and is holding fast the word. They've done that. They are saved."

I showed that the verb "hold fast" (vs.2) is in the Greek Present Tense. That means "you are saved if you (presently) hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine). But OSAS doctrine ignores the tense, even changing it to a past tense, so it can say you are saved if you 'hold fast' the word in the past, but you are not now.

I don't think it reasonable that one change the Greek tense of the verb "hold fast" from a Present Tense to a past tense in order to defend a particular brand of OSAS. How can I honestly tell someone the verb is in a past tense when it is in reality in the Present Tense?

Nothing I said is challenged by your comments.

What do you do with the aorist tense in the verses I've presented in regard to salvation?

 

[JohnDB]

reba said: ↑
But JLB what of this verse
Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Actually, the context for "sheep" begins back in v.7:
7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Conclusion: those who "enter" by Him are His sheep, and will be saved.


Scholars say that "other sheep" refer to Gentile believers. That's what "not of this fold" refers to.


I don't because no verse says that. In fact, Paul said those who have been sealed IN HIM have been sealed for the day of redemption.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise Eph 1:13
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed FOR the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

I find it interesting that EVEN grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't break the sealing.

Now as a "side note"
There was an act Sheep Gate at the Temple in Jerusalem. The sacrificial animals would be herded through this gate...

When speaking of the afterlife, Jesus said this: "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:44, 46, 48.

Then, specifically, in Matt 25:46, Jesus said this about unbelievers: "“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jude 7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

If the teaching of anniliation were true, why would Jesus and Jude speak of "eternal punishment", or what would be significant about a place "where their worm does not die"?

I usually avoid using situations in allegorical or metaphorical statements by Jesus as intending literal fact of reality.

Not many people use this hermeneutic.

 

[chessman]

You say this:

No. I'm not defending a future tense.

Good. Yet you turn right around and say this:

Cast off that which you were saved by and you no longer have that which you are saved by. Paul is plainly saying that.

Sounds like you are predicting the future to me. Paul either said something about the future tense in the verse or he didn't. The demonstrable fact is that he didn't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you do that? Is it something akin to Eph 4:30 ". . ye are sealed unto the day of redemption," but can unzip and cast off that sealing at will?

In the context of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, that would be the word of the gospel that you heard.
To not "hold fast" to that which you heard and were saved by is to no longer believe and trust in it, keeping it in your heart.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say this:

Good. Yet you turn right around and say this:

Sounds like you are predicting the future to me. Paul either said something about the future tense in the verse or he didn't. The demonstrable fact is that he didn't.

Future tense means it hasn't happened yet, but will in the future. That is NOT the tense Paul used. He used the PRESENT tense to say "you are saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB).

Obviously, you can't be saved if are not holding fast (present tense) the word, or else Paul's statement is completely meaningless and would actually amount to nothing more than a lie (because you could indeed be saved and not hold fast the word).

The Future Tense is used when the action will indeed be happening in the future. But Paul did not use that tense. He used the tense to say that to be saved you have to be believing now, presently. He could only use the Future tense if it was a fact that the holding fast would indeed occur in the future.

 

[chessman]

Assuming this question is directed at the possibility of giving away one's gift of eternal life, is there a verse or passage that suggests the possibility?

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

By "natural branches" Paul mean the people of Israel. Thus, for this to be an anti-OSAS passage (I suppose because it has the words "broken off" in it), it would be incumbent upon the debater to show how both Paul and Moses were also "broken off" from salvation. Something that cannot be shown. Paul uses himself as an example of an Israelite to put that notion to rest.

Notice how Moses appears along side Jesus around 30 A.D. well after he was one of those that was cut off from the land for his unbelief.

Matthew 17:3-4 (NASB) And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” ​

Then notice how Paul uses himself as example of a natural branch:

Romans 11:1-2 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people, whom he foreknew! ​

 

[reba]

I dont care if they are/were Israel they were His they missed up and He cut them off.. What makes any one else think He should not do the same. The Scripture are for our learning .. For me that is something i have learned..

 

[chessman]

Future tense means it hasn't happened yet, but will in the future. That is NOT the tense Paul used. He used the PRESENT tense to say "you are saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB).

Obviously, you can't be saved if are not holding fast (present tense) the word, or else Paul's statement is completely meaningless and would actually amount to nothing more than a lie (because you could indeed be saved and not hold fast the word).

The Future Tense is used when the action will indeed be happening in the future. But Paul did not use that tense. He used the tense to say that to be saved you have to be believing now, presently. He could only use the Future tense if it was a fact that the holding fast would indeed occur in the future.

We agree.

God bless!

 

[MarkT]

No verse says that anyone who has been given eternal life can die.

This is what Jesus said about that:
"25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Martha said she believed what Jesus said, in v.27.

Yes. I believe what Jesus said. He did not say he who doesn't believe in Me will live.

If this verse means believers will be thrown into hell, then His words from John 11:25 and 26 cannot be true.

It doesn't, so your logic escapes me. Did Martha fall away after Jesus raised Lazarus? No. So what's your point?

Both Paul and Jesus taught the very same things. There is no difference. Both taught that one is saved from a point in time belief in Christ. And that those who have been given eternal life will be saved and that God's gifts, including eternal life, are irrevocable.

If you don't believe Jesus, then there's no sense in quoting Paul. Jesus said, "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:6

Since there are no verses that teach that anyone can be, or has been "unsealed", we can be sure that such an idea is not taught in Scripture.

In fact, Paul taught this: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

This was said to those who heard the truth and believed in Jesus. Truth matters. That's what Paul taught. The truth is in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:21
assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

In the context of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, that would be the word of the gospel that you heard.
To not "hold fast" to that which you heard and were saved by is to no longer believe and trust in it, keeping it in your heart.

Then am I to believe that that is the reason anyone born of God sinneth not according to 1 Jn 5:18? Would it be a sin to quit believing in God delivering us from a cancer for instance? And then of course we read in 1 Ki 8:46 ( . . there is no man that sinneth not,).

I reckon things I'm hearing and/or reading keeps bring me back to Moses that didn't believe God in Num 20:12, and as a result was told to go up to the mount (Nebo) and die. (Deut 32:50). Wow, forty years leading the congregation to the land promised them, and all of a sudden he's cut off and don't even get to enter it. (Deut 32:52). It's fortunate we later see Moses written of in Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him (Jesus), or I would have thought this cutting off of Moses because of unbelief meant he was in hell (Of course it was a sin unto death).

And then, does all this mean that since anyone born of God sinneth not, and commits a deliberate sin such as speeding, showing anger ever, filthy communication, or other acts of unbelief have quit believing? Belief & trust is also experienced as God works in us as we grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus.

 

[JLB]

I don't because no verse says that. In fact, Paul said those who have been sealed IN HIM have been sealed for the day of redemption.

Actually, the context for "sheep" begins back in v.7:
7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Conclusion: those who "enter" by Him are His sheep, and will be saved.

Those who believe are His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, are His sheep for a while.



JLB