Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

Cygnus,
Many will say "But LORD..." and they believed they were saved but were not.

Correct. And, why did they think they were saved? Just look at their appeal for entering the kingdom:
"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’" Matt 7:22

They based their appeal on entering on their works. Not faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

Illogical.

If a man doesn't remain in him, he is dead. Dead branches are gathered and burned.

No verse says that anyone who has been given eternal life can die.

This is what Jesus said about that:
"25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Martha said she believed what Jesus said, in v.27.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

If this verse means believers will be thrown into hell, then His words from John 11:25 and 26 cannot be true.

So if you want to understand Paul, you have to examine Paul in the light of Christ. You can not make Jesus follow Paul.

Both Paul and Jesus taught the very same things. There is no difference. Both taught that one is saved from a point in time belief in Christ. And that those who have been given eternal life will be saved and that God's gifts, including eternal life, are irrevocable.

Believers are sealed with the promised Spirit, but Jesus said if a man does not remain in him he is dead. So even though the word you're looking for is 'unsealed', it follows that he is unsealed.

Since there are no verses that teach that anyone can be, or has been "unsealed", we can be sure that such an idea is not taught in Scripture.

In fact, Paul taught this: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

Those who have believed are sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. There are no verses that warn of being unsealed by any reason.

He doesn't have to say continue to drink. Jesus said the water he gives us will become a well of water in us springing up to eternal life. So we will never thirst. That's why we will never thirst. Because the water becomes a well. And certainly we continue to drink from the well.

Jesus used "drinking" as a metaphor for believing in Him. And He used the aorist tense. Your analysis here is correct, and teaches eternal security.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[chessman]

Correct. And, why did they think they were saved? Just look at their appeal for entering the kingdom:
"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’" Matt 7:22

They based their appeal on entering on their works. Not faith.

And look at what Jesus says to them:

Matthew 7:23 (LEB) And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ​

He says "never knew you", not I no longer know you. Now that's Jesus speaking "plainly".

 

[FreeGrace]

That is his basic M.O.
JLB

I don't recall that you ever explained what the verses in the OP teach either.

And look at what Jesus says to them:

Matthew 7:23 (LEB) And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ​

He says "never knew you", not I no longer know you.

Exactly!

 

[JLB]

I don't recall anyone who believes that salvation can be lost explaining what the verses in the OP teach.

Here is a scripture from your OP.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.

The wages of sin is death:

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.


The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

• But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

JLB

 

[reba]

I don't recall that you ever explained what the verses in the OP teach either.

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[FreeGrace]

Here is a scripture from your OP.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.

The wages of sin is death:

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

• But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

JLB

You forgot to explain what Rom 11:29 is teaching. And I've already refuted your previous explanation that it was teaching that Israel's gifts are irrevocable. Because Paul never described anything that Israel had as a gift. So one cannot make that claim from the text and context.

Paul specifically descibed both justification and eternal life as gifts of God. So, what is Rom 11:29 teaching?

And there are 4 more points with verses that I believe teach eternal security. So, what are they teaching?

 

[chessman]

The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life
JLB

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. ​

 

[reba]

In the avatar chessman you have the fish. Nice catch . If you put it back in the sea would you still have it?

 

[Butch5]

I don't recall anyone who believes that salvation can be lost explaining what the verses in the OP teach.

Look at your first section. You quote one verse from Romans 6 and another from Romans 11. In your argument you don't use either passage in the context in which it was written. Rather you simply pull two sentences from their context and say, see, that's what the Bible says'. That's nonsense. It's called proof texting and it's not how to study the Bible. Using that method a person could make the case that one can be saved without faith.

KJV Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb. 5:9 KJV)

See, nothing about faith or believing. So using your methodology one could argue that you don't have to believe.

 

[chessman]

In the avatar chessman you have the fish. Nice catch . If you put it back in the sea would you still have it?

Why would I catch a fish I had no intention of having...for dinner?

 

[Butch5]

And look at what Jesus says to them:

Matthew 7:23 (LEB) And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ ​

He says "never knew you", not I no longer know you. Now that's Jesus speaking "plainly".

Chessman, do you honestly believe that there will people standing before Jesus at the judgment that He didn't know? If he never knew them how did He know they practiced iniquity?

 

[Hospes]

Do you mean "absolutely necessary for salvation"?

If so, what about Eph 2:8-9
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

I do not mean obedience provides salvation, but I am saying obedience is the necessary outworking of saving faith. If their is no obedience, there is no saving faith and thus, there is no salvation. Saving faith results in obedience just as a person being alive results in their breathing. A person can claim all they want they are alive/saved, but if they are not breathing/obeying, they are not.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36 ESV)​

 

[chessman]

Chessman, do you honestly believe that there will people standing before Jesus at the judgment that He didn't know? If he never knew them hos did He know they practiced iniquity?

The Biblical meaning of 'know' means more than 'acquainted with'.

So yes, I believe what He said.

 

[reba]

Why would I catch a fish I had no intention of having...for dinner?

A fisher man's dodge :tongue

 

[chessman]

A fisher man's dodge :tongue

Matthew 4:19 (LEB) And he said to them, “Follow me and I will make you fishers of people.” ​

And you know what? He did!

He also said:

John 4:13-14 (LEB) Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” ​

And you know what? ...

 

[reba]

so throw the fish back and you will still have 'em right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's correct. Except it's not just me that says it, it's Paul.

that's what; "unless you believed [past tense] in vain just superficially and without complete commitment" means.

But that is what Paul doesn't say in the passage. That is only what you are saying it means.

This would have been a great place for Paul to have said unless you have 'changed your belief' or something like that.

But he didn't!

He did in the next verses. My interpretation is supported by the context of the passage. In fact, that's exactly where it comes from.


This is all we actually need to discuss: How is "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" not true because some of the Corinthians never really believed the gospel Paul originally preached to them?

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

As I said, "if you hold fast the word I preached to you" is actually like a parenthetical in the passage. Whether or not a person is really saved or not to begin with has no bearing on the fact that one is saved if they "hold fast the word" that was preached. How is it not true just because, as you say, he says some of the Corinthians believed his gospel in vain right from the start?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't recall anyone who believes that salvation can be lost explaining what the verses in the OP teach.

None of the scriptures in the OP are made false by "you are saved if you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB). Your problem is, your interpretation of those verses IS made false by "you are saved if you hold fast the word". That is what you have to refute.

You have to make "you are saved if you hold fast the word" go away in order for your interpretation of the scriptures in the OP to be true. The challenge to your position has been leveled. Now you have to address it, not simply restate over and over and over again what you say the scriptures in your OP mean. That's how debates work.

"(Y)ou are saved if you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) makes it impossible to interpret the passages in the OP to mean that once a person is saved they are irreversibly saved forever no matter what they do or don't believe.

 

[chessman]

How is it not true just because, as you say, he says some of the Corinthians believed his gospel in vain right from the start?

Because, I as said in my first post on this passage and repeated multiple times, Paul used the present tense in the indicative mode for the verb translated "hold fast" or "hold firm".

It does NOT indicate a future or even a continuous tense as your interpretation assumes that it does. He very specifically meant the verb as a simple event in time. Not a continuous action. Go study it.