Eternal security or conditional security?

[chessman]

It most certainly is in regard to personal salvation.

Yet you say:

...but not grafted in yet as a nation.

Inconsistent.

When you say, "see, Moses was cut off from the Promised Land, but was still saved", you are equating being a broken off branch with simply not being in the Land anymore.

Misquotation. No I'm not equating being cut off with simply not being in the Promised Land. I know what being cut off means. Paul tells us what it means. To no longer share in the richness of God.

Written late in his life, John recorded decades old accounts of Jesus. Why would Paul and others not know the teachings of Jesus that Paul later recorded in his letter?

Paul didn't quote Jesus or even paraphrase an early story in Romans 11. You are speculating. And doing so erroneously.

John 15 is a record of Jesus saying things to His disciples (who were Jews, not gentiles) illustrated using a vine and bearing fruit (not olive trees and nations). And in that account, The Father is the vinedresser and Jesus is the vine. It doesn't even mention roots. Nor does it mention nations. Nor is it about de-salvation either.

Paul, in Romans 11, says the Roman Christians (not Jesus) are saying something about olive trees (not vines). And God is the root (not the vinedresser).

Romans 11 (LEB) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off in order that I could be grafted in.” Well said! ​

If Paul was alluding to Jesus' vinedresser story, he got it substantially wrong.

I have refuted that.

Inconsistency, misquotation and speculation is not refutation.

 

[JLB]

"Wow. So Christ's death on behalf of all wasn't all that effective, then. John the baptizer said that Jesus was the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...

 

[Eugene]

If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
(2 Timothy 2:12-13 NASB)

Dear Brother Jethro Bodine, I hope to at least give my thoughts on the scripture you quoted. Edited

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
(Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.)

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
(What will Jesus deny us? The right of reigning (Rev 5:10) versus serving (Rev 7:15)?

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: he cannot deny Himself.
(Who is the Himself He cannot not deny what? – Is it not us who are His own body?)
Be blessed now and forever in Christ Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

This is what I did. From 6:23 I showed that Paul described eternal life as a gift of God. From 11:29, I showed that Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Now, IF Paul did not have the specific gift of eternal life in mind when he wrote 11:29, where is the "disclaimer"? The 2 verses are absolutely linked because both speak of God's gifts.

The disclaimer is called context. Romans 11 is speaking of specific promises.

I'd like to see such an attempt. The Bible specifically says we are saved through faith.

It also specifically says, 'some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away'

It also doesn't say anything about HOW one is saved. He certainly WILL save all who obey Him, but the verse doesn't say that obedience is the means of salvation.

Yeah it does. It says He became eternal salvation those who obey Him. It doesn't say anything about believing.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"walking in darkness means we are not practicing the truth. It does not say we lose our salvation."

If you are walking in darkness then you don't have the benefit of the blood of Jesus to cleanse you of your sins, as you are not confessing your sin, and thereby being cleansed.

OK. And this doesn't mean loss of salvation.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

If you do not practice the truth, then you are a liar, who practices lying.

Sure. That's what John said.

Maybe you didn't make the connection?

I posted this scripture and bolded red the word all liars for you, but you still missed it.

Maybe you couldn't see it?

I saw it, and asked you a question about your view, which it seems you missed. Did Jesus Christ die for all sins, or only some sins?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

So much for your "theory" of walking in darkness not having any effect of your salvation or eternal life.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
JLB

Why would one link 1 Jn 1:9 with Rev 21:8? There is no linkage.

Again, did Jesus die for all sins, or only some of them?

 

[Butch5]

The Biblical meaning of 'know' means more than 'acquainted with'.

So yes, I believe what He said.

It does? Can you give me some evidence of that? Let me ask you, why did Jesus say He didn't know them? Was it because they practiced lawlessness or because they never believed?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Wow. So Christ's death on behalf of all wasn't all that effective, then. John the baptizer said that Jesus was the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...

Yes, I am very familiar with 1 Jn 1:9, but what does it have to do with Jn 1:29? Please elaborate.

And I'm still wondering about how many sins you think Christ died for? All or just some?

I need your answer in order to further the discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This is what I did. From 6:23 I showed that Paul described eternal life as a gift of God. From 11:29, I showed that Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Now, IF Paul did not have the specific gift of eternal life in mind when he wrote 11:29, where is the "disclaimer"? The 2 verses are absolutely linked because both speak of God's gifts."

The disclaimer is called context. Romans 11 is speaking of specific promises.

Could you point me to the specific verses where Paul specifically described gifts? The only gifts that Paul described before he wrote 11:29 is found here:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

These are the ONLY gifts that Paul described.

I then said this:
"The Bible specifically says we are saved through faith."

To which, you replied:

It also specifically says, 'some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away'

And how does this relate to what I said? One thing is clear; Jesus said nothing about loss of salvation. He was speaking about loss of faith.

Then I said this:
"It also doesn't say anything about HOW one is saved. He certainly WILL save all who obey Him, but the verse doesn't say that obedience is the means of salvation."

Yeah it does. It says He became eternal salvation those who obey Him. It doesn't say anything about believing.

Are you actually denying that one is saved through faith?

The response: "yeah it does" is hardly a refutation. You haven't shown that the verse does say that. Our interpretations are clearly different. But it seems your comment denies ALL the other verses about believing for eternal life.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

There. 23 verses that specifically say that salvation and eternal life are by faith.

 

[chessman]

It does? Can you give me some evidence of that?

Sure. It's the same word Mary used to describe never having an intimate relationship with a man:

Luke 1:34 (AMP) Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin and have no intimacy with any man?”​

But, we know she was acquainted with men.

Let me ask you, why did Jesus say He didn't know them? Was it because they practiced lawlessness or because they never believed?

Because He never had an intimate relationship with them. Just like He says. Since it's a judgement day prophecy, I understand it to mean He'd never given them Eternal Life. i.e. They were never saved.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ​

So if I had to pick between your two options, I guess I'd pick because "They never believed". But we'd have to agree on a definition of "believed".

 

[Butch5]

Sure. It's the same word Mary used to describe never having an intimate relationship with a man:

Luke 1:34 (AMP) Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin and have no intimacy with any man?”​

But, we know she was acquainted with men.

OK, that's usage of the word, I agree. However, how does that prove that that's the way Jesus meant it? The word Jesus used is "ginosko" it's used of all kinds knowing.

Because He never had an intimate relationship with them. Just like He says. Since it's a judgement day prophecy, I understand it to mean He'd never given them Eternal Life. i.e. They were never saved.

I'd argue that no one is saved. That's why we are give a "down payment." If we were already saved we wouldn't need a down payment.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So if I had to pick between your two options, I guess I'd pick because "They never believed". But we'd have to agree on a definition of "believed".

But Jesus told us why. He said, depart from me you who work lawlessness. I think your position runs afoul with your doctrine. These people cast out demons in Jesus name. In order to do that one must manifest the power of God. For them to be casting out demons God had to be working through them. Would you suggest that God was casting out demons using unbelievers? Not only that but Jesus said they did mighty works. So, it would seem that they were doing more than just casting out demons. We have an account of some unbelieving Jews who attempted to cast out demons in Jesus' name.

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. (Acts 19:13-16 KJV)

It didn't go so well for them.

 

[Butch5]

I said this:
"This is what I did. From 6:23 I showed that Paul described eternal life as a gift of God. From 11:29, I showed that Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Now, IF Paul did not have the specific gift of eternal life in mind when he wrote 11:29, where is the "disclaimer"? The 2 verses are absolutely linked because both speak of God's gifts."

Could you point me to the specific verses where Paul specifically described gifts? The only gifts that Paul described before he wrote 11:29 is found here:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

These are the ONLY gifts that Paul described.

Firstly, Paul said the gifts and calling, not just the gifts. Romans 11 is the conclusion of an address to the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome that Paul began in chapter 2.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

What Paul is talking about is the promises that were made to the father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In chapters 8-11 Paul has explained how God is bringing about the promises that He made to Abraham and explaining how the Gentiles fit into this. What He' saying is that God will make this happen. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and many afterward were called.

You're taking that one verse and trying to join it to another verse in chapter 6. When Paul said, 'the gifts and calling of God are without repentance', he's talking about what he 's just explained in chapters 9-11

I then said this:
"The Bible specifically says we are saved through faith."

To which, you replied:

And how does this relate to what I said? One thing is clear; Jesus said nothing about loss of salvation. He was speaking about loss of faith.

[edited] So you have unbelievers who are saved. Should I assume you believe in universal salvation?

Then I said this:
"It also doesn't say anything about HOW one is saved. He certainly WILL save all who obey Him, but the verse doesn't say that obedience is the means of salvation."

In Mathew 7 Jesus said, "I never knew you." You guys claim they were never saved. Here you have saved unbelievers. You can't have it both ways.

Are you actually denying that one is saved through faith?

The response: "yeah it does" is hardly a refutation. You haven't shown that the verse does say that. Our interpretations are clearly different. But it seems your comment denies ALL the other verses about believing for eternal life.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

There. 23 verses that specifically say that salvation and eternal life are by faith.

No, I'll just say, they don't mean that like you do. You see, you have a double standard. It's OK for you to deny what a passage is clearly saying but it's not OK for anyone else.

 

[chessman]

OK, that's usage of the word, I agree. However, how does that prove that that's the way Jesus meant it?

Because a non-intimate, casual acquaintance type of meaning isn't logical.

I'd argue that no one is saved.

Paul says otherwise:

1 Corinthians 15:2 (NASB) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. ​

Ephesians 2:4-8 (NASB) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ​

But Jesus told us why. He said, depart from me you who work lawlessness.

Yes, right after He publicly declared to them "I never knew you".

 

[chessman]

Romans 11 is the conclusion of an address to the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome that Paul began in chapter 2.
...
What Paul is talking about is the promises that were made to the father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In chapters 8-11 Paul has explained how God is bringing about the promises that He made to Abraham and explaining how the Gentiles fit into this. What He' saying is that God will make this happen. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and many afterward were called.

What do you make of:

Romans 9:23-24 (AMP) And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy [see 9:16 were the AMP clarifies His Mercy is also a gift], which He has prepared beforehand for glory, including us, whom He also called, not only from among the Jews, but also from among the Gentiles?
​

And like any good A&T debater, refers you back to OT Scripture to support is point.

Romans 9:16 (AMP) So then God’s choice is not dependent on human will, nor on human effort the totality of human striving, but on God who shows mercy to whomever He chooses—it is His sovereign gift.​

It seems to me that Paul, and FreeGrace , make a very good Biblical case for why God's gifts and callings are indeed irrevocable not only toward Abraham, Issac, many Jews afterward "but also" to many Gentile believers He has also called and gave Sovereign gifts to. One might even surmise that all God's gifts and callings are irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

I saw it, and asked you a question about your view, which it seems you missed. Did Jesus Christ die for all sins, or only some sins?

Jesus Christ died for all people, so that they could be reconciled to God.

Those people who want to be forgiven of their sins must turn from Satan to Jesus as Lord, by repenting, which is demonstrated by the action of confessing Jesus as Lord, and believing He is the Son of God whom God, raised from the dead.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


Jesus Christ will not forgive the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
(What will Jesus deny us? The right of reigning (Rev 5:10) versus serving (Rev 7:15)?

No, the believer doesn't just become a servant in the kingdom if you deny Christ in this life. They suffer the second death--the lake of fire:

5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)
"He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’" (Revelation 2:11 NASB bold mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Misquotation. No I'm not equating being cut off with simply not being in the Promised Land. I know what being cut off means. Paul tells us what it means. To no longer share in the richness of God.

You use Moses as an example of one who has been cut off to show it doesn't mean losing one's salvation, citing his not being able to enter into the Promised Land, yet you insist you're not saying being cut means being cut off from the Land.

John 15 is a record of Jesus saying things to His disciples (who were Jews, not gentiles) illustrated using a vine and bearing fruit (not olive trees and nations). And in that account, The Father is the vinedresser and Jesus is the vine. It doesn't even mention roots. Nor does it mention nations. Nor is it about de-salvation either.

Paul, in Romans 11, says the Roman Christians (not Jesus) are saying something about olive trees (not vines). And God is the root (not the vinedresser).

Romans 11 (LEB) Then you will say, “Branches were broken off in order that I could be grafted in.” Well said!
If Paul was alluding to Jesus' vinedresser story, he got it substantially wrong.

Just cut to the chase: How is an analogy about dead branches being cut out of a tree useful for illustrating--let alone proving--an OSAS argument that dead branches disconnected from God and Christ are still alive?

"6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." (John 15:6 NASB)

How does a branch stay alive, as OSAS insists, when it is cut away from the tree? OSAS insists that the dried up branches out on the burn pile in my backyard still have the life of the tree they came from in them. They're using the wrong analogy if they're trying to prove that believers cut out of Christ still have eternal life in them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Firstly, Paul said the gifts and calling, not just the gifts.

The word is "kletos" and means to be invited. All are invited to the gospel:
Eph 1:18 - I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Romans 11 is the conclusion of an address to the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome that Paul began in chapter 2.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Rom. 11:26-29 KJV)

The only way to know what Paul was referring to in Rom 11:29 is to find all his references to gifts in the epistle.

And we find 3 references to gifts that come from God:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

These are the ONLY gifts mentioned by Paul before he wrote 11:29.

What Paul is talking about is the promises that were made to the father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Not in 11:29.

In chapters 8-11 Paul has explained how God is bringing about the promises that He made to Abraham and explaining how the Gentiles fit into this. What He' saying is that God will make this happen. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and many afterward were called.

The NT is full of the Greek word for "called". Paul wasn't talking about Jews who were called in the past. Rather, he was teaching believers that their own calling from God is irrevocable, just as God's gifts to them are irrevocable.

You're taking that one verse and trying to join it to another verse in chapter 6.

How about that!! Because Paul described eternal life as a gift of God.

When Paul said, 'the gifts and calling of God are without repentance', he's talking about what he 's just explained in chapters 9-11

So, where did he mention anything in ch 9-11 as gifts?

There is no reason to assume that anything in ch 9-11 is a "gift of God".

[edited]

Since eternal life is irrevocable, those who have believed and cease to believe STILL have eternal life.

No one has yet shown from Scripture that God takes away or removes or revokes the gift of eternal life for ANY reason.

Should I assume you believe in universal salvation?

Of course not. Many more will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) than will enter the kingdom. Matt 7:13,14.

In Mathew 7 Jesus said, "I never knew you." You guys claim they were never saved. Here you have saved unbelievers. You can't have it both ways.

This has already been well explained by chessman. The Greek for "knew" means in an intimate way. Being omniscient, of course Jesus knows all men (John 2:24). "But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men".

Please don't try to pit verses against each other. If one takes Matt 7:23 as "was never aware of", then Scripture is contradicted by John 2:24 which says clearly that Jesus "knew all men".

A bit of discernment clarifies between verses using the same word.



No, I'll just say, they don't mean that like you do. You see, you have a double standard. It's OK for you to deny what a passage is clearly saying but it's not OK for anyone else.[/QUOTE]

 

[chessman]

When you say, "see, Moses was cut off from the Promised Land, but was still saved", you are equating being a broken off branch with simply not being in the Land anymore.

The reason I disagree with this mischaracterization of what I said WRT Paul's real meaning behind being broken off from the Root in Rom 11 is not because being "cutoff/broken off" isn't about the Promised Land but rather because it's not "simply" about that. To share in the richness of the Root certainly (provably) includes possession of His Promised Land but it also includes milk and honey (just for two examples). And many other riches of The Root as well.

You've provided zero Biblical evidence from within the context of Romans (any chapter or verse you want to point out) that what Paul meant by being "cutoff/broken off" is a euphemism for being de-saved. Thus you tried to bring in another (out of context) passage and essentially say; see being cutoff in John 15 means de-salvation (which it doesn't there either BTW) so it must mean that in Rom 11 too. I don't buy that hermeneutical method. Especially when the immediate contexts tells us what it means in both cases.

What's worse, is that Paul tells us what being broken off from the root means in Romans 11 and Jesus tells us what being cutoff from the vine means in John 15. And neither means to become de-saved. So when you say that it does mean that, you miss the True teaching behind the phrase.

Once again (to support my case) here is what Jesus meant by being cutoff from the vine in John 15:

John 15:4 (AMP) Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself without remaining in the vine, neither can you bear fruit, producing evidence of your faith unless you remain in Me. ​

No vine-no fruit. No fruit-no evidence of your faith. But God doesn't use our produced evidence to determine our salvation. He uses His produced evidence (Christ) and whether we have Jesus in us.

And here is what Paul meant by being broken off from the tree in Rom 11:

Romans 11:17-18 (AMP) ... you, although you were a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the root of the olive tree’s richness, ...​

To be grafted in means to share His richness. To be broken off, thusly, means to no longer share in that richness. Quite obviuosly.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus Christ died for all people, so that they could be reconciled to God.

In what way did He die for everyone? Specifically.

Those people who want to be forgiven of their sins must turn from Satan to Jesus as Lord, by repenting, which is demonstrated by the action of confessing Jesus as Lord, and believing He is the Son of God whom God, raised from the dead.

How do you reconcile this verse: “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” Acts 10:43?

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

How do you reconcile this verse with what you've just said?

Jesus Christ will not forgive the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

That's what He said, all right.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
JLB

You're going to have to prove that this verse is in any way connected to the CONTEXT of Matt 12.

In fact, 1 Jn 1:9 was written within the CONTEXT of fellowship.

 

[JLB]

You use Moses as an example of one who has been cut off to show it doesn't mean losing one's salvation, citing his not being able to enter into the Promised Land, yet you insist you're not saying being cut means being cut off from the Land.


Just cut to the chase: How is an analogy about dead branches being cut out of a tree useful for illustrating--let alone proving--an OSAS argument that dead branches disconnected from God and Christ are still alive?

"6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." (John 15:6 NASB)

How does a branch stay alive, as OSAS insists, when it is cut away from the tree? OSAS insists that the dried up branches out on the burn pile in my backyard still have the life of the tree they came from in them. They're using the wrong analogy if they're trying to prove that believers cut out of Christ still have eternal life in them.

Where is that like button?

LIKE!

[edited]