Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

though one is saved by faith in Christ, they will be de-saved by lack of works.

Those works signifying the absence of the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works.

In no way was Jesus saying that one must must overcome to avoid the lake of fire. We know this clearly by what the Bible says about WHO will be cast into the lake of fire:
"And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

Right, if anyone's name is not found in the book of life, they will be tossed into the lake of fire. Revelation also teaches that those who don't over come will have their names removed from the book of life:

5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)

So how is it that OSAS can claim that non-overcomers are not going to be tossed into the fire, but non-overcomers will not be in the book of life?

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that if Paul and Timothy had gone into Bithynia, they would have become de-saved?

Do I believe if Paul or Timothy no longer had faith is Jesus Christ, that they would no longer be saved? Yes

Do I believe if Paul of Timothy went to the wrong place at the wrong time, and spread the message of Christ, without being sent there by God, would they no longer be saved? No

However, going to a foreign heathen country out from under God's grace and protection can get people killed, or at best, have no real results from their effort, since the went in their own strength and no by the anointing.

You are attempting to try and compare apples to cactus.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's why dead faith--the 'faith' that does not obey--can not save.

:amen

 

[JLB]

If the Father has given me to Jesus...who is able to snatch me from Jesus hands?

Do you believe that your free will has been removed when you were saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

In the context of Rev 2-3, an overcomer is a fruitful, faithful believer, not just a believer. And the Bible teaches that one is saved by grace, through faith, NOT BY WORKS, lest any one should boast. Eph 2:8,9.

So, the ONLY conclusion is that Rev 2:11 is a "litotes", which I explained and provided my source.

An overcomer is someone who has faith in Jesus Christ regardless of the circumstances.

An overcomer is a believer.

Those who no longer believe, and no longer overcomers.

Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

Those who are not overcomers, are those who no longer believe in Jesus Christ.

Are you trying to say that believing is now a work?

What more does someone have to do than believe, to be saved?

That's why those who don't overcome, and removed from the book of Life.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

We are in agreement.

I said this:
"If this verse means believers will be thrown into hell, then His words from John 11:25 and 26 cannot be true."

Again, we are in agreement.


Please explain what it means to "abide in me". We may not agree on this.

To remain in, to reside in. It's to remain in Him with the understanding that you must reside in Christ - He is the light and the life. Without Him we can do nothing.
John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[MarkT]

Do you believe that your free will has been removed when you were saved?


JLB

Where in the Bible does it say we can resist His will?

 

[JohnDB]

There has been times I wish I didn't have the father that I have....and vice versa there have been times my dad wishes I wasn't his son.

But guess what? We never denied each other... I am my father's son and there never is a time where we deny knowing each other.

Same goes for my heavenly Father. We know each other. Now I may not have pictures to show. But that doesn't mean that I can deny him or that He isn't real.

So...
Like John says "they went out from us because they never were one of us and their leaving reveals who they truly are".

If God has never been real to subscribers they aren't really believers. Subscriptions have to be contually renewed. Family doesn't require a subscription. We can go for years without talking but we are still family... (Not that I would do that to my heavenly Father)

The trouble is that subscribers act and talk a lot like believers. But there is that hair-breadth of a difference that makes all the difference.
Annanias and Saphira were subscribers...not believers...and the list of subscribers is long...

Tough really to tell the difference between the two...

But that's the reality as I see it.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus said: ↑
If the Father has given me to Jesus...who is able to snatch me from Jesus hands?

No one. But the question is, are you going to hold fast the word by which you are saved? That's the condition for salvation that OSAS can't see even when it looks right at those plain words in scripture. Ear tickling doctrines are very stubborn things to overcome once they get set up in a person's mind.

.

Correct. No one.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2....Paul shifts topics and begins to focus on the intergrity of the Gospel and the resurrection.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you believe that your free will has been removed when you were saved?


JLB

My free-will was inspired when I received Christ.
When God presents you to Christ you receive a new heart, new mind.....the old heart that kept you from receiving Jesus is lost.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
......you can't come to Christ unless you are given.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Corinthians 15:1-2....Paul shifts topics and begins to focus on the intergrity of the Gospel and the resurrection. Would you please apply this portion of scripture properly.

But before he shifts to the reality of the resurrection of Christ in the following verses, which, therefore, doesn't make their believing in his gospel vain, he tells them they are saved "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB).

The tense of the Greek word rendered 'hold fast' indicates that they are doing that. But most importantly of all, the 'if' makes the 'holding fast' they are doing the condition of them being presently saved. That is the part that OSAS can't seem to see in the passage, even though it's plainly spelled out.

Even if you want to claim the 'if' in Greek actually means 'because', or 'since', that still makes presently holding fast the word a condition for being saved. But OSAS is claiming that you do NOT have to be presently holding fast the word by which you were saved in order to be presently saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My free-will was inspired when I received Christ.
When God presents you to Christ you receive a new heart, new mind.....the old heart that kept you from receiving Jesus is lost.

If this is true to the extent that once you are a believer you can never change your mind about the gospel and change your will about following it, why does the author of Hebrews warn people sanctified by the blood of Jesus (believers) against willfully sinning to the point of no longer having a sacrifice to cover that sinning and as a result suffering the punishment reserved for the enemies of God?

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB italics and capitalizing in original, bold and underline mine)

 

[Cygnus]

But before he shifts to the reality of the resurrection of Christ in the following verses, which, therefore, doesn't make their believing in his gospel vain, he tells them they are saved "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (vs.2).

The tense of the Greek word rendered 'hold fast' indicates that they are doing that. But most importantly of all, the 'if' makes the 'holding fast' they are doing the condition of them being presently saved. That is the part that OSAS can't seem to see in the passage, even though it's plainly spelled out.

Even if you want to claim the 'if' in Greek actually means 'because', or 'since', that still makes holding fast the word a condition for being saved. But OSAS is claiming that you do NOT have to hold fast the word by which you were saved in order to be saved.

Perhaps I need to say it again...differently...You're taken this topic out of context. Paul is talking about the intergrity of the Gospel and the resurrection. Paul is saying if you believe a false Gospel your faith is in vain.

 

[Cygnus]

If this is true to the extent that once you are a believer you can never change your mind about the gospel and change your will about following it, why does the author of Hebrews warn people sanctified by the blood of Jesus (believers) against willfully sinning to the point of no longer having a sacrifice to cover that sinning and as a result suffering the punishment reserved for the enemies of God?

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB italics and capitalizing in original, bold and underline mine)

Lets start here...""26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

Understanding that Jesus is the way, truth and life and No one can come to the Father except through Jesus....if a person hears, receives the knowledge of the truth.....(Jesus died as a sacrifice for your sins)....and one rejects the Gospel.....there is no other means inwhich a person can be saved. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perhaps I need to say it again...differently...You're taken this topic out of context. Paul is talking about the intergrity of the Gospel and the resurrection. Paul is saying if you believe a false Gospel your faith is in vain.

What OSAS has to explain is how this changes the fact that Paul said the condition for being presently saved is that the word abide in you in a present holding fast of that word:

"...you are saved, if you hold fast the (the true) word (which I preached to you and which you received--vs. 1), unless you believed in vain (because I lied and Christ really hasn't risen from the dead--vs.13)." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

The point you seem to be missing is even if one wants to translate it as "you are indeed saved because you are indeed holding fast the word I preached to you, unless you believed in a false gospel", that still makes their holding fast the word why they are indeed saved. But OSAS says there is no condition of holding fast the word by which one was saved in order to be presently saved.

This condition for the word to abide in you in order for you to be (presently) saved is exactly what Jesus was speaking of in John 15:14-11 NASB in the teaching of the vine and the branches. You have to 'keep' the word in you in order to have the Son (John 15:7 NASB), and in turn have the Father. John speaks of it again here:

23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1 John 2:23-26 NASB)

OSAS is the deceiver. It says you do NOT have to have the word abide in you which you heard from the beginning, because it claims even if you don't do that you still have the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life. That's not what John says. He wrote these things because of "those who are trying to deceive you" (vs.26).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lets start here...""26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

Understanding that Jesus is the way, truth and life and No one can come to the Father except through Jesus....if a person hears, receives the knowledge of the truth.....(Jesus died as a sacrifice for your sins)....and one rejects the Gospel.....there is no other means inwhich a person can be saved. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus.

Of course that's very true. But now you have to address the matter of the one who has been sanctified by the blood of Jesus doing that willful sinning and, therefore, having no sacrifice, no means, to be saved.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

 

[Cygnus]

What OSAS has to explain is how this changes the fact that Paul said the condition for being presently saved is that the word abide in you in a present holding fast of that word:

"...you are saved, if you hold fast the (the true) word (which I preached to you and which you received--vs. 1), unless you believed in vain (because I lied and Christ really hasn't risen from the dead--vs.13)." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

The point you seem to be missing is even if one wants to translate it as "you are indeed saved because you are indeed holding fast the word I preached to you, unless you believed in a false gospel", that still makes their holding fast the word why they are indeed saved. But OSAS says there is no condition of holding fast the word by which one was saved in order to be presently saved.

This condition for the word to abide in you in order for you to be (presently) saved is exactly what Jesus was speaking of in John 15:14-11 NASB. You have to 'keep' the word in you in order to have the Son, and in turn have the Father. John speaks of it again here:

23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1 John 2:23-26 NASB)

OSAS is the deceiver. It says you do NOT have to have the word abide in you which you heard from the beginning, because they claim even if you don't do that you still have the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life. That's not what John says. He wrote these things because of "those who are trying to deceive you" (vs.26).

Well Jethro, I'm going to tell you this....not to be mean or rude, BUT, if it is possible to lose your salvation....YOU..me, everyone already has lost their salvation.
Sorry but I don't accept your damning gospel that sends believers to hell.

 

[Cygnus]

Of course that's very true. But now you have to address the matter of the one who has been sanctified by the blood of Jesus doing that willful sinning and, therefore, having no sacrifice, no means, to be saved.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

[edited] You condemn yourself each time you willfully sin. I don't accept your gospel that says everytime you sin you have no sacrifice, no means, to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well Jethro, I'm going to tell you this....not to be mean or rude, BUT, if it is possible to lose your salvation....YOU..me, everyone already has lost their salvation.

Why, have we all lost our faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ?
I haven't.

Sorry but I don't accept your damning gospel that sends believers to hell.

It doesn't. It sends those who DON'T BELIEVE to hell.
When a believer stops believing in the gospel they are no longer a believer that they should somehow still qualify by virtue of having faith to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[edited] You condemn yourself each time you willfully sin. I don't accept your gospel that says everytime you sin you have no sacrifice, no means, to be saved.

The willful sin being spoken of is sinning because of a rejection of Christ and the gospel, not because you're struggling with sin in a '7 x 70' relationship with God.