[_ Old Earth _] Evolution in your lifetime

[Quath]

All are born sinners and will be condemned eternally for their own sin. Children's father's sins are not accounted to them for their eternal condemnation.

God will punish children in this physical life for the sins of their fathers. The Israelites were taken captive by the Babylonians for Israel's sin against God. Children were punished because of the sins of their fathers at that time.

Not real big problem for those that have knowledge and wisdom given them by God.

That is not what the Bible says. It says

Deut. 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

So it is talking about physical death. The Bible is saying that God will not punish children in this physical life for the sins of the father.

Joshua 7 shows that God wants the children killed for what their father did. This is a direct contradiction with Deut. 24:16.

Quath

 

[Solo]

All are born sinners and will be condemned eternally for their own sin. Children's father's sins are not accounted to them for their eternal condemnation.

God will punish children in this physical life for the sins of their fathers. The Israelites were taken captive by the Babylonians for Israel's sin against God. Children were punished because of the sins of their fathers at that time.

Not real big problem for those that have knowledge and wisdom given them by God.

That is not what the Bible says. It says

Deut. 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

So it is talking about physical death. The Bible is saying that God will not punish children in this physical life for the sins of the father.

Joshua 7 shows that God wants the children killed for what their father did. This is a direct contradiction with Deut. 24:16.

Quath

In Deuteronomy God records through his inspiration that each person will die according to their own sin. What he doesn't say is when each one will die for their own sin. In Joshua 7, Achan was found to have gone against God's commandment and had "taketh of the devoted thing". He was stoned to death by the Israelites as was their law which is stated in Leviticus 24:14 and Numbers 15:35. His children died because of their own sin, not their fathers. It just so happened that their time was up when their father was found to have rebelled against God. The children died for their own sin. No contradiction, only a misunderstanding of God's Word.

 

[Quath]

In Deuteronomy God records through his inspiration that each person will die according to their own sin. What he doesn't say is when each one will die for their own sin. In Joshua 7, Achan was found to have gone against God's commandment and had "taketh of the devoted thing". He was stoned to death by the Israelites as was their law which is stated in Leviticus 24:14 and Numbers 15:35. His children died because of their own sin, not their fathers. It just so happened that their time was up when their father was found to have rebelled against God. The children died for their own sin. No contradiction, only a misunderstanding of God's Word.

What law did the children break to be stoned to death?

If you read the text as it is, God says "He who is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him." The children belonged to him and that is why they were killed. They were killed for the action of their father.

They may have been sinners, but so has everyone there. So if it was the children's time to die, then it logically should have been everyone's time to die.

Don't you see that you worship a God that wanted the ritual human sacrifice of children? It is double think not to see this.

Quath

 

[Solo]

In Deuteronomy God records through his inspiration that each person will die according to their own sin. What he doesn't say is when each one will die for their own sin. In Joshua 7, Achan was found to have gone against God's commandment and had "taketh of the devoted thing". He was stoned to death by the Israelites as was their law which is stated in Leviticus 24:14 and Numbers 15:35. His children died because of their own sin, not their fathers. It just so happened that their time was up when their father was found to have rebelled against God. The children died for their own sin. No contradiction, only a misunderstanding of God's Word.

What law did the children break to be stoned to death?

If you read the text as it is, God says "He who is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him." The children belonged to him and that is why they were killed. They were killed for the action of their father.

They may have been sinners, but so has everyone there. So if it was the children's time to die, then it logically should have been everyone's time to die.

Don't you see that you worship a God that wanted the ritual human sacrifice of children? It is double think not to see this.

Quath

Each child suffers for the stupid decisions that their family makes, but each one will die in their own sin. Only by the blood of Jesus will any survive this short temporary life in fellowship with God the creator. Those that refuse to accept this gift will live out their eternity after their physical death apart from the creator. Not a difficult concept to understand, but a difficult belief because of man's nature and need to be in control.

I worship the God that sent his only son to die in place of the billions of souls that will be judged for eternity for their own individual sin. What a loving God who did not have to do anything for us but send us all straight to hell, and then start over.

 

[Quath]

Each child suffers for the stupid decisions that their family makes, but each one will die in their own sin.

Yo are glossing over the key points.

1. Deut. 24:16 says that what happened in Joshua 7 will not happen. The kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penality according to God's laws. Yet God wants the kids physically killed for the sin of their father.

2. God is not just. When a man commits a crime, you do not kill his children.

Imagine a ruler saying that a thief's children must be killed with the thief. Would you support such a king? Yet if you name the king "Yaweh" you suddenly agree.

That is were I see the double think in all of this.

Quath

 

[Solo]

Each child suffers for the stupid decisions that their family makes, but each one will die in their own sin.

Yo are glossing over the key points.

1. Deut. 24:16 says that what happened in Joshua 7 will not happen. The kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penality according to God's laws. Yet God wants the kids physically killed for the sin of their father.

2. God is not just. When a man commits a crime, you do not kill his children.

Imagine a ruler saying that a thief's children must be killed with the thief. Would you support such a king? Yet if you name the king "Yaweh" you suddenly agree.

That is were I see the double think in all of this.

Quath

Your impression is that the kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penalty. I am saying that the person that was killed was guilty, and his children and animals were killed as well. Death reigned because of the sin of mankind. The children were sinners and they died because they were sinners. They didn't die because of their father's sin. They died from their own sin. They just happened to be in the family of one whose entire belongings were destroyed so that others would see the need to believe the Lord God.

I believe that God almighty is more just than you could even imagine or know, and one day you will bow down on your knees and call Jesus Christ Lord just prior to him commanding you to depart from him for eternity. Unless of course you repent and believe.

 

[peace4all]

solo, you know that everyopen is a born sinner? so why the heck doesnt god kill you now? why doesnt god kill quath, or myself, Or bush?

surely if he would kill children, that have sinned less than a lieing president, He would be fair and kill the president?

RIght?

 

[Quath]

Your impression is that the kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penalty. I am saying that the person that was killed was guilty, and his children and animals were killed as well. Death reigned because of the sin of mankind. The children were sinners and they died because they were sinners. They didn't die because of their father's sin. They died from their own sin. They just happened to be in the family of one whose entire belongings were destroyed so that others would see the need to believe the Lord God.

Everyone there was a sinner. So by that logic, everyone should have been killed. Yet they weren't. Why kill some sinners and not others? Justice is not arbitrary.

Back then, God did not say all sinners were to die. He gave out specific rules for when a person may be killed. So if the kids did rebeled against their parents, were gay, worshiped foreign gods, worked on Saturday, then the people could kill them for their sin. Otherwise, God's law said they could not.

In this case, the children were killed as property of a sinner. God accepted the deaths of this family as a human sacrifice and helped the Israelites go forth and kill many other people.

When I was Christian, I would have thought this would be the actions of the devil. Human sacrifice. Killing children. Genocide. Slaughtering animals for blood rituals. It has all the elements of a cheesy Satanic movie. However, this is the Old Testament and many Christians call these actions "good." Now that is the sacriest thing yet.

Quath

 

[lovely]

I just wanted to respond directly to the article in the first post again.

Creationists are not saying that genetics do not exist, and change the traits of a species. (I learned about eye color in the third grade, you guys.) This doesn't take very long, btw, a few generations maybe. What they believe is that we can not change our DNA, not that DNA does not encapsulate genetic variations. Come on. The Elephant's DNA hasn't changed, and the ones with the largest tusks are being hunted. If the evidence is accurate, the ones with no tusks, and small tusks, are the ones left to reproduce. We can guess that the the trait that doesn't attract hunters is becoming dominant because of breeding patterns.

I can't believe how long this thread is. We agree on the evidence, just not what it supports. I'm thinking what an awesome design, it encourages survival. NEAT.

Quath doesn't believe the Bible because he is an atheist, he has been blinded from the truth...things are as they should be with him.

God's Word is kept by Him alone...not by a church or anyone else...by Him. It is by His providence that man has His Word, and grows to understand it more and more. The purpose is to know Him, glorify Him, and instruct His people.

Blessings.

 

[Karma2Grace]

Quath: “The kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penalty according to God's lawsâ€Â
Every one is worthy of Death penalty because we all (no one is good according to Romans) sinners and violated HIS commands, God gave a chance to all of us to redeem from the penalty by casting our sins on Christ (HIS only begotten son)

Quath: “Everyone there was a sinner. So by that logic, everyone should have been killed. Yet they weren't. Why kill some sinners and not others? Justice is not arbitrary.â€Â

Why you are so happy on killing every one! Do you feel bad about the people who escaped from 9/11 (According to you everybody should be killed isn’t), Can you call that as unjust!

Yes every one should be killed (eternally if with out Christ) by the logic but God is giving chances for every people (we never know how many occasions given to each one, the individual only knows) if they don’t use it then it is their fault, You and I should be happy because we are not Killed yet, Still we have chance to Save our life!, That is the whole Point!!

For a Christian life in this earth is short time, Just a blink of an eye, God never call us to enjoy the lust of the world and enter into his kingdom, He gave HIS only begotten SON on the cross, The only person who can cry “Un Just†is Christ , Don’t you think is unjust for you and me to Kill Jesus on the cross though he never committed any sin

Here is the answer

Luke 13:4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

Luke 13:5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."


Thanks

 

[Quath]

Quath: “The kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penalty according to God's lawsâ€Â
Every one is worthy of Death penalty because we all (no one is good according to Romans) sinners and violated HIS commands, God gave a chance to all of us to redeem from the penalty by casting our sins on Christ (HIS only begotten son)

Jesus wasn't around yet in this story. At that point in time, they paid for sins by killing animals for God. Some sins required banishment or death. It was all written down in rules. By God's law at the time, the kids had committed no sin worthy of death. They were punished for having a theiving father.

Why you are so happy on killing every one! Do you feel bad about the people who escaped from 9/11 (According to you everybody should be killed isn’t), Can you call that as unjust!

Well, because I am an atheist and I don't buy into the idea of everyone deserving death that religion teaches.

Yes every one should be killed (eternally if with out Christ) by the logic but God is giving chances for every people (we never know how many occasions given to each one, the individual only knows) if they don’t use it then it is their fault, You and I should be happy because we are not Killed yet, Still we have chance to Save our life!, That is the whole Point!!

In this story, God did not give such a chance to the thief's children.

For a Christian life in this earth is short time, Just a blink of an eye, God never call us to enjoy the lust of the world and enter into his kingdom, He gave HIS only begotten SON on the cross, The only person who can cry “Un Just†is Christ , Don’t you think is unjust for you and me to Kill Jesus on the cross though he never committed any sin

Well, that was God's decision, not mine or yours. God could just as easily have snapped His fingers and forgave everyone. Or God could have let Jesus die of old age. Or God could have had Jesus die right as Adam sinned so there would have been no law that required human sacrifice in the first place.

Quath

 

[Solo]

Your impression is that the kids committed no crimes worthy of the death penalty. I am saying that the person that was killed was guilty, and his children and animals were killed as well. Death reigned because of the sin of mankind. The children were sinners and they died because they were sinners. They didn't die because of their father's sin. They died from their own sin. They just happened to be in the family of one whose entire belongings were destroyed so that others would see the need to believe the Lord God.

Everyone there was a sinner. So by that logic, everyone should have been killed. Yet they weren't. Why kill some sinners and not others? Justice is not arbitrary.

Back then, God did not say all sinners were to die. He gave out specific rules for when a person may be killed. So if the kids did rebeled against their parents, were gay, worshiped foreign gods, worked on Saturday, then the people could kill them for their sin. Otherwise, God's law said they could not.

In this case, the children were killed as property of a sinner. God accepted the deaths of this family as a human sacrifice and helped the Israelites go forth and kill many other people.

When I was Christian, I would have thought this would be the actions of the devil. Human sacrifice. Killing children. Genocide. Slaughtering animals for blood rituals. It has all the elements of a cheesy Satanic movie. However, this is the Old Testament and many Christians call these actions "good." Now that is the sacriest thing yet.

Quath

Since you are an atheist I would not expect for you to understand or believe God, but it is interesting that you have searched out a Christian forum to post your opinions on the things of God.

Either you are deliberately trying to sway individuals away from Jesus Christ, or you are searching to see whether or not your decision to be an atheist is valid or not. Either way may God be glorified.

You may have attended an organization that was called Christian, and it very possibly could have been Christian, but all those that have been born again by the Spirit of God will not turn to become an unbeliever. The born again process does not lend itself to the position of being unborn again. You may have been an unbeliever attending a Catholic church, a Baptist Church, a Mormon Church, a Jehovah Witness Church, or a Church which was composed of believers, but you could not have been a born again believer. Remember that hanging out in a garage does not make you a car.

The fact that you have stated that Jesus was not around in Joshua's time shows that you never knew him, for Moses wrote of Jesus prior to the Joshua 7 occurance.

Happy days for you ahead and hopefully you will come to the truth before it is too late.

 

[peace4all]

Iduno if this is the same reason that quath is here, but here is mine.

I came here, because I dont believe in god, and i wanted to try to find out, why people do. In my mind, I could make no plausible reason, to believe.

Also, since comign here, I have learned ALOT more about the christian religion.

Now instead of saying "i hate broccoli, but have never tried it"

I can say "i hate broccoli, and i have eaten, smelled, licked, poked, and grown it!"

 

[Solo]

Iduno if this is the same reason that quath is here, but here is mine.

I came here, because I dont believe in god, and i wanted to try to find out, why people do. In my mind, I could make no plausible reason, to believe.

Also, since comign here, I have learned ALOT more about the christian religion.

Now instead of saying "i hate broccoli, but have never tried it"

I can say "i hate broccoli, and i have eaten, smelled, licked, poked, and grown it!"

You will never know the life that Jesus spoke about until God draws you to Himself through his only Son by the conviction of the holy Spirit. When God is calling you, and you answer yes to him by turning to His ways and against your own ways (repentance); believing that Jesus gave his life for you, then you will have tasted true Christianity. Until then you will go through life deceived.

 

[Lewis]

Yes kids were killed, because in those days your wife and kids were the man's property, so because they belonged to the man in some cases they were killed too. But also it could have been that God saw something in those children that were not right, in this case. Now in the 14th chapter of 1 Kings when God was getting ready to destroy Jeroboam and others, God was allowing Jeroboam's son, to die a natural death, because in the child he saw something good, 1 Kings 14: 13. So that tells me God was looking into this baby's future, and He saw something in him. Now this also could have been the case in the book of Joshua, because God does not kill unjustly. So He could have saw evil in these children.

1KINGS 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

But it is also true that whole familys in those days were killed because of the sin of the father or husband. And then you have to remember that children before the age of accountability or very, very young children they go to be with the Lord, we do not have a cruel God that would send innocent babies to hell, so the babies die in the body only, and are not banished to hell. There are other cases like Davids child, that God took, that baby died in the body only, God took the baby from David to punish him. That baby will not end up in hell for somehing that he had nothing to do with. God is concerned about your spirit, because it will never die. I have found through the years that you have to use common sense with God, when you worship God in Spirit and in truth you begin to learn His ways through the Holy Ghost and along with the Bible you begin to learn some of the things He will and He won't do, and taking a life with no justification is not God. Some of the things that God does is appalling to man, but that is just it. He's a man, who is a limited being. God knows what He is doing man does not. The Bible says to the natural man the things we say are foolishness to him. So to the, atheist nor we, or the Bible makes any sense to you, how can it, when you lack, the Holy ghost.

 

[peace4all]

are you saying the only purpose of life, is to go to heaven?

If so, then shouldnt all christians basically give up property, and materialistic goods?

There is often the argument about abortion. Killing the fetus wont let it live a full life. HOWEVER, here it is said that they will still go to heaven, and thats relaly all that matters.


God was the first abortionist..

 

[Solo]

are you saying the only purpose of life, is to go to heaven?

If so, then shouldnt all christians basically give up property, and materialistic goods?

There is often the argument about abortion. Killing the fetus wont let it live a full life. HOWEVER, here it is said that they will still go to heaven, and thats relaly all that matters.


God was the first abortionist..

You come across as a moron, I sure hope that you aren't.

 

[Lewis]

Going to heaven is going to be nice, but if you make it there you will only stay for a while because the main objective is to make it back to the earth with the King of Kings, Jesus Christ. During a time when the Lion will lay down with the Lamb. The earth was created to be inhabited, and it will be inhabited. Puting to much on going to heaven is unbiblical. Alot of the old time churches do this, but a closer study of the Bible you will see that, that is wrong.

 

[peace4all]

Instead of arguing my point, or trying to understand it, or anything, you disregard and name call......

Not very nice :-/

I wonder why i get in trouble and have my posts deleted for calling peopel morons

 

[Karma2Grace]

Quath : "Jesus wasn't around yet in this story"

Nope, Jesus is there from eternity, All the blood sacrifices in OT are the shadow of christ's sacrifice which spritualy happend before the crteation of the world but physically yet to happen

Quath : "Well, because I am an atheist and I don't buy into the idea of everyone deserving death that religion teaches."

My point is same, Since you are a atheist , Your destiny is physical death, You trusure your life fot THIS world. For a Saved christian death is just a start, We don't fear death.

Quath : "In this story, God did not give such a chance to the thief's children."

That the person only knows..


Quath : "God could just as easily have snapped His fingers and forgave everyone. Or God could have let Jesus die of old age. Or God could have had Jesus die right as Adam sinned so there would have been no law that required human sacrifice in the first place. "

I think you didn't understand christianity properly, God will not simple say , "Hey man kind you all forgiven" NO !!,Then HE is UnJust!.
Here is the core theological concept of the entire teaching of Jesus Christ and the New Testament. It includes “cousin concepts†such as:

a. man cannot save himself (because by nature he is sinful)

b. man cannot earn his salvation (his rigteousness is filthy)

c. God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness MUST INCLUDE JUSTICE!

d. works are from gratitude, not in order to earn salvation

The grace of God is deepened by understanding these truths, and it is in this context that grace is taught in the New Testament. It is often contrasted to salvation by works.

In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ€â€not by works so that one can boast.†‘Salvation by works’ systems believe that men can pay for their errors or sins by doing good


Thanks