[_ Old Earth _] Evolution in your lifetime

[Karma2Grace]

Quath : "Jesus wasn't around yet in this story"

Nope, Jesus is there from eternity, All the blood sacrifices in OT are the shadow of christ's sacrifice which spritualy happend before the crteation of the world but physically yet to happen

Quath : "Well, because I am an atheist and I don't buy into the idea of everyone deserving death that religion teaches."

My point is same, Since you are a atheist , Your destiny is physical death, You trusure your life fot THIS world. For a Saved christian death is just a start, We don't fear death.

Quath : "In this story, God did not give such a chance to the thief's children."

That the person only knows..


Quath : "God could just as easily have snapped His fingers and forgave everyone. Or God could have let Jesus die of old age. Or God could have had Jesus die right as Adam sinned so there would have been no law that required human sacrifice in the first place. "

I think you didn't understand christianity properly, God will not simple say , "Hey man kind you all forgiven" NO !!,Then HE is UnJust!.
Here is the core theological concept of the entire teaching of Jesus Christ and the New Testament. It includes “cousin concepts†such as:

a. man cannot save himself (because by nature he is sinful)

b. man cannot earn his salvation (his rigteousness is filthy)

c. God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness MUST INCLUDE JUSTICE!

d. works are from gratitude, not in order to earn salvation

The grace of God is deepened by understanding these truths, and it is in this context that grace is taught in the New Testament. It is often contrasted to salvation by works.

In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ€â€not by works so that one can boast.†‘Salvation by works’ systems believe that men can pay for their errors or sins by doing good


Thanks

 

[Karma2Grace]

Quath : "Well, because I am an atheist.."

Do you know you have just committed a logical fallacy. atheism is an absolute negation (or a negative existential proposition). you cannot logically have a negation in the absolute. in order for you to truly make the claim that God does not exist, you first have to have infinite knowledge of this universe. since no person has infinite knowledge, this claim can never be stated as fact. Einstein said that nobody has more than .1% knowledge of this universe. is it possible that in the 99.99% knowledge that you don't have, there could be enough proof of God's existence?

 

[peace4all]

what are you smoking?

God is real
God is not real

one statement is right, the other is wrong.

in your logic, then you too cant possibly be a christian, because you are jsut a negation of the truth, or of the atheist view atleast.

 

[peace4all]

srry for the double post

 

[Sleeker]

Quath : "Well, because I am an atheist.."

Do you know you have just committed a logical fallacy. atheism is an absolute negation (or a negative existential proposition). you cannot logically have a negation in the absolute. in order for you to truly make the claim that God does not exist, you first have to have infinite knowledge of this universe. since no person has infinite knowledge, this claim can never be stated as fact. Einstein said that nobody has more than .1% knowledge of this universe. is it possible that in the 99.99% knowledge that you don't have, there could be enough proof of God's existence?

In order for you to truly claim that God exists, you have to have infinite knowledge. Therefore, you can never factually say that God exists.

Lame argument, isn't it?

 

[Karma2Grace]

In order for you to truly claim that God exists, you have to have infinite knowledge. Therefore, you can never factually say that God exists.

Lame argument, isn't it?

Nope! I think you missed the point, Let me explain...
Assume that I have a white pebble with blue dots, I can say absolutely that there is a white pebble with blue dots exists but for some one else to make a negation he needs have absolute knowledge!



Thanks

 

[Quath]

Since you are an atheist I would not expect for you to understand or believe God, but it is interesting that you have searched out a Christian forum to post your opinions on the things of God.

Either you are deliberately trying to sway individuals away from Jesus Christ, or you are searching to see whether or not your decision to be an atheist is valid or not. Either way may God be glorified.

I come to understand Christians. It is hard to explain why I like to visit this web site. Since most American are Christian or pseudo-Christian (New Age), it is helpful to understand the spectrum of belief. I also worry that we could fall into a theocracy or lose science in favor of religion.

Nope, Jesus is there from eternity, All the blood sacrifices in OT are the shadow of christ's sacrifice which spritualy happend before the crteation of the world but physically yet to happen

What I was saying is that Jesus had not died for people's since yet, so they were still under OT laws.

My point is same, Since you are a atheist , Your destiny is physical death, You trusure your life fot THIS world. For a Saved christian death is just a start, We don't fear death.

That is better than an eternity in hell, which is what some other Christians believe.

That the person only knows..

True. The children could have been killed because they rebelled against heir father. Maybe they decided not to help steal the stuff. So by he rebellion rule, they would have to die. (It would still show the immorality of God's laws back then.) However, the Bible doesn't make that point. It makes the point that the children were seen as property of the man and were destroyed as property. That is the straightforward reading of this story. But it doesn't mean that is the only way it could have happened.

God cannot simply forgive, but forgiveness MUST INCLUDE JUSTICE!

Well, I would disagree that God is just. He kills people for crimes that did not do. That is the essense of injustice.

But that point asside, if God makes up justice, then God makes up what serves as justice. So God could have made Jesus a scapegoat and set him free into the wild. Then God's idea of justice has been served by a ceremony He approved.

It is also injust for one person to pay for the crimes of another. So making Jesus die to forgive others is not justice either.

Do you know you have just committed a logical fallacy. atheism is an absolute negation (or a negative existential proposition). you cannot logically have a negation in the absolute.

Others have addressed this well. Try to see atheism as "disbelief in god(s)." The idea is that we have no knowledge of god(s) until we are taught of them. Until we becomes convinced they exist, we have no belief in them. This is the state of atheism in which the evidence does not move one to believe.

It reminds me of my favorite quote:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901 – 1971)

Quath

 

[Sleeker]

Nope! I think you missed the point, Let me explain...
Assume that I have a white pebble with blue dots, I can say absolutely that there is a white pebble with blue dots exists but for some one else to make a negation he needs have absolute knowledge!

But, athiests say that the don't believe in deities. They don't state, "Deities don't exist," as fact.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Nope! I think you missed the point, Let me explain...
Assume that I have a white pebble with blue dots, I can say absolutely that there is a white pebble with blue dots exists but for some one else to make a negation he needs have absolute knowledge!

A weak atheist (which almost all atheists are) would say that they have no reason to believe you have a white pebble with blue dots.

You have presented no proof, other than your word for it. I have never seen another white pebble with blue dots. I choose not to believe that you have such a pebble. However, I do not deny the possibility.

A strong atheist (a rather rare breed) would say it is impossible to have a white pebble with blue dots. Such a condition is illogical and contrary to science. He/she would find your claim utterly false and impossible.

An agnostic would say it is impossible to ever ascertain whether or not such a pebble exists, or if you have one. He/she would state that since we can never know if it exist, or if you have it, there is no reason to believe for a fact that you do.

All the atheists I've met on this forum are weak atheists (I may be wrong, but I doubt it). We choose not to believe that you have such a pebble. We are not denying the possibility that such a pebble exists. However, we hear about these pebbles all the time. They are all different, though many have the same name and claim the same elemental composition.

 

[Karma2Grace]

That is better than an eternity in hell, which is what some other Christians believe.

Eternity in Hell is not an option; it is mandatory if some one choose to rejects Christ

Well, I would disagree that God is just. He kills people for crimes that did not do.

You are just taking out of your self centeredness, God is the author of life, He can give/take lives, when He takes the life of an un-saved people, it is a Judgment, if He took a life of a Saved person, It is the way of taking him in to HIS eternal kingdom

It is also unjust for one person to pay for the crimes of another. So making Jesus die to forgive others is not justice either.

Jesus is God; God happily took the punishment of Human beings upon Him. Where is the unjust? , It is UNJUST to reject Jesus

Others have addressed this well. Try to see atheism as "disbelief in god(s)." The idea is that we have no knowledge of god(s) until we are taught of them. Until we becomes convinced they exist, we have no belief in them. This is the state of atheism in which the evidence does not move one to believe.

Then better address yourself as “agnostic†not atheist

 

[Quath]

You are just taking out of your self centeredness, God is the author of life, He can give/take lives, when He takes the life of an un-saved people, it is a Judgment, if He took a life of a Saved person, It is the way of taking him in to HIS eternal kingdom

I am just going by the ideal of justice. It is punisnishment and reward for one's actions. If you commit a crime, is it justice if I go to jail instead of you? I think we all would agree it is not. However, that is the mentality used in the Bible for what God does.

You can say that God has the power and right to tend life, but if he does so arbitrarily, then He is doing it in an unjust manner. If someone commits a crime and God punishes anothe for it, that is not justice.

Jesus is God; God happily took the punishment of Human beings upon Him. Where is the unjust? , It is UNJUST to reject Jesus

Well, it is a silly thing. God sacrifices Himself to Himself to change a rule He made Himself. If it was a good idea to forgive everyone, then God did not have to kill to do it. If He is all powerful then He is not bound by rituals.

But say that for some reason God could only firgive by killing an innocent. That is not justice. That is like saying that if I do wrong, you can kill my baby, who did nothing wrong. We can see the illogicalness of it when taken out of the religious context. But attach religions names and such thinking stops.

Then better address yourself as “agnostic†not atheist

Agnostic is more of a middle ground system. I can not say that there is 100% certainity that God does not exist. But I could say that about anything. All of us believe that. You could be hooked up to the Matrix and everything you learned about God could have just been fed to you through a computer. You can not disprove that. So I find agnositism a middle ground without much meaning since everyone's beliefs fit in it.

I could easily become a theist if I found evidence of a god. However, I have seen no evidence that is convincing. Is there any evidence that could convince you that your beliefs are misplaced?

Quath

 

[Solo]

Quath,
You won't see the truth until you are on the right side of faith; until then you will just observe and communicate your limited perception of life.

Many have taken the time to share the truth with you, but your own selfish desires and understanding has kept you from entering in at the door that God has opened.

Hopefully you will pass through that door so that you can see prior to the end of your physical life. After that there is no other option.

In love,
Solo

PS Keep in mind that you are worse than you perceive the Bible says you are, and your understanding of justice, love, mercy, grace, etc. resides in a finite, limited creature that has inherited a sin nature. Apart from that sin nature, mankind cannot know anything other than a sin nature understanding without God's holy Spirit creating a new creature. I know, I have been there. Hopefully your experience will be the same.