[__ Science __ ] Evolution Is a Scientific Law?

[hawkman]

But nowhere is a worldwide flood cited in the Bible.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

It does say world in this verse . But .

 

[Barbarian]

No. That's only a technicality, not fully true.
Only man has the brain compatible with having an actual "high caliber" (for lack of a better term) soul.

So people with severe mental deficiencies don't have souls? I'd have to disagree. It's not dependent on brains. The soul is not an epiphenomenon of the brain.

We are truly primates. But that's not all we are. That "living soul" we get directly from God, remember?

God didn't talk about evolution or DNA or protons.

Historical science

Wrong. We directly observe all of these as natural phenomena. Yes, when we look at the ancient Oklo reactor:

Meet Oklo, the Earth’s Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor

Physicist Francis Perrin sat at a nuclearfuel-processing plant down in the south of France, thinking to himself: “This cannot be possible.” It was 1972.

www.iaea.org

And we see the evidence of protons in that radiation, it is historical science. But we still see protons acting today.

When we look at the many transitional series of fossils we see evidence of evolution in the past, and that is historical science. But we still see evolution happening in populations all around us today.

When we look at DNA from frozen animals in permafrost, that is historical science. But we still see DNA functioning in living things today.

The difference for YE creationists is that they don't think protons and DNA destroy their new doctrines.

Again, Yec IS FROM the Bible.

Nope. It was invented in the last century by Seventh-Day Adventists.

EllenWhite.Org Website - Creation

Seventh-day Adventists believe that the entire universe came into being through divine creative acts ( Isa. 40:26 ; Ps. 19:1 ; 33:6 ), but that the narrative of Gen. 1 and 2 focuses primarily on this earth

ellenwhite.org

You admit that K2KE is, AT BEST, an extra Biblical idea.

Your invention; it can be whatever you want it to be.

God does the impossible.

For a Christian, nature is also a miracle. It's the way He does most things in this world. You'll admit all sorts of miracles but balk at accepting the greatest and most wonderful of all.

You are missing the message that death is an enemy.

Was. Death was defeated completely and finally by Jesus. Eternal life is yours, if you'll only accept it. No Christian should fear physical death. It holds no power over us.

 

[Barbarian]

It does say world in this verse . But .

Doesn't say the world was flooded.

For reasons we've already discussed.

 

[Barbarian]

What I am saying is that it does not make logical sense to say that God purposefully created man via a process the outcome of which He had not determined.

God, being omniscient, could not fail to know outcomes, even those completely random.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

God, being omniscient, could not fail to know outcomes, even those completely random.

In that case the process would only be random from our point of view. From God's it would be predetermined. Thus, really, it would not be "completely random". The only way you could say it was completely random is if God also did not know the outcome.

 

[KV-44-v1]

So people with severe mental deficiencies don't have souls? I'd have to disagree. It's not dependent on brains.

They're still people, so that doesn't make for a good rebuttal. Animals never have nor will become people.

The soul is not an epiphenomenon of the brain.

Ooh big word

God didn't talk about evolution

Nor does the Bible tell of aliens from Mars or superman.

or DNA or protons.


Wrong. We directly observe all of these as natural phenomena. Yes, when we look at the ancient Oklo reactor:

Meet Oklo, the Earth’s Two-billion-year-old only Known Natural Nuclear Reactor

Physicist Francis Perrin sat at a nuclearfuel-processing plant down in the south of France, thinking to himself: “This cannot be possible.” It was 1972.

www.iaea.org

So oklo magically stayed presereved for all that time. But earth's crust constantly changes!

"but after complementary analyses, Perrin and his peers confirmed that the uranium ore was completely natural. " Details? This article seems more like a summary of what happened.

And we see the evidence of protons in that radiation, it is historical science. But we still see protons acting today.

When we look at the many transitional series of fossils we see evidence of evolution in the past, and that is historical science. But we still see evolution happening in populations all around us today.

When we look at DNA from frozen animals in permafrost, that is historical science. But we still see DNA functioning in living things today.

The difference for YE creationists is that they don't think protons and DNA destroy their new doctrines.

Because neither can contradict the Truth. And why do you believe the truth is "new"?

Nope. It was invented in the last century by Seventh-Day Adventists.

EllenWhite.Org Website - Creation

Seventh-day Adventists believe that the entire universe came into being through divine creative acts ( Isa. 40:26 ; Ps. 19:1 ; 33:6 ), but that the narrative of Gen. 1 and 2 focuses primarily on this earth

ellenwhite.org

So then you were wrong when you admitted that people believed it before there were SDA?? Or this? Or are you still of two minds?

Choose your ""hill to die on"". Otherwise, you will be unstable.

So which hill do you choose? Admit pre-SDA Yec belief or insist that SDA is the sole origin of that doctrine?

Your invention; it can be whatever you want it to be.

Yes, that's why K2KE has to change what "MAY HAVE" happened in the unobserved past all the time. 150 years of CONTROL. BILLIONS of $$$$ in FUNDING.

YET, man still cannot make their madeup story (K2KE and deeptime) infallible. It still is riddled with holes and blind spots to this day. Wrong assumptions do not lead to right conclusions. Neo darwinian evolution is like the leaky pipe, tape up a hole here and there, and a varying number holes form. And on, and on, a Sisyphean struggle.

God is not flawed. YEC is true. No sisyphean struggles.
The YEC pipe is solid. The deep time K2KE pipe is weak and leaky.

For a Christian, nature is also a miracle. It's the way He does most things in this world.

That doesn't necessitate Him to be flawed in character.

You'll admit all sorts of miracles but balk at accepting the greatest and most wonderful of all.

Why not accept God's sheer speed rather than wish to slow Him down?

"Jesus took millions of years to turn the water into wine! He didn't do it instantly!" Do you believe this? If not why not?

Was. Death was defeated completely and finally by Jesus.

No, it still is.

1 Corinthians 15:26

You "revised" is into was!

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:26 - New American Standard Bible

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

www.biblegateway.com

Romans 6:23.
The wages of sin is death. How can there be wages of sin without sin? If your "pre fall death" teaching was correct, that would make God unjust?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Sorry, that's wrong. In fact, He never mentions the issue at all. He doesn't talk about nuclear fusion in the Bible either. For the same reason He doesn't mention evolution.
The Earth brought forth all living things as He intended. The issue is that you don't approve of the way it was done.
Since He created the world to bring forth life, I don't see a difference.

He could have chosen to poof each thing into existence by magic.

*miracle. And He did. So why write off the YEC truth as magic but not the Virgin Birth?

But instead He chose to use nature to make living things. I have to conclude that it was the right way.

That's an assumption and you have nothing to back that He DID use nature to make the original creatures.

 

[Barbarian]

*miracle.

He could have used any means He liked. The point is, the Bible says He used nature to produce living things. As I reminded you, nature is also a miracle.

It's just that YE creationists object to that particular miracle.

 

[Barbarian]

In that case the process would only be random from our point of view.

Yep.. Even irreducibly random things would not be unexpected for God. Omniscient, you know.

Thus, really, it would not be "completely random". The only way you could say it was completely random is if God also did not know the outcome.

That would be blurring the distinction between creation and Creator.

 

[Barbarian]

They're still people, so that doesn't make for a good rebuttal.

So it's not about brains, after all? It's just genes? If one is a human, one has a living soul, but not otherwise? I think that's correct. What if there was a chimp genius, as smart a human (albeit at the lower range of normal)? Would the chimp thereby have a living soul?

Animals never have nor will become people.

People are animals. Primates, hominids. That stuff.

Ooh big word

Not that big. But it's what you're talking about.

God didn't talk about evolution or DNA or protons, all of which we observe in nature.

Nor does the Bible tell of aliens from Mars or superman.

Which we don't observe in nature.

So oklo magically stayed presereved for all that time.

Naturally. So we don't just have observational science showing evolution and protons, we also have evidence for them from millions of years ago.

So then you were wrong when you admitted that people believed it before there were SDA??

You're confusing the idea of a young Earth with YE creationism. A recent age for the earth is only one of the false doctrines of YE creationism.
The difference for YE creationists is that they don't think protons and DNA destroy their new doctrines.

Because neither can contradict the Truth.

None of them can contradict the truth, being observed phenomena. But they all contradict YE creationism.

Yes, that's why K2KE has to change what "MAY HAVE" happened in the unobserved past all the time.

As you just learned, science shows what happened in the unobserved past. The notion that we can't know anything we didn't directly observe is so faulty, I'm surprised any YE creationist still tries to sell it.

That's an assumption and you have nothing to back that He DID use nature to make the original creatures.

We have his word in Genesis that the Earth brought forth living things. It's one of those parts that YE creationists reject.

Neo darwinian evolution is like the leaky pipe, tape up a hole here and there, and a varying number holes form.

As you know, engineers have come to realize that evolutionary processes are more efficient than design for very complex problems. YE creationists depend on their own wisdom, but God still knows better.

Why not accept God's sheer speed

You've merely assumed that He had to do it instantly, when the evidence clearly shows that creation proceeds at whatever rate He wills it to do.

Death was defeated completely and finally by Jesus.

No

I'll go with God on this.
2 Timothy 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

But you have to accept His gift to you. You can still walk away from Him and be subject to death. Don't do that.

 

[KV-44-v1]

So it's not about brains, after all?

It is. Brains of people are brains of people. Not of animals. Animals and human were made different.


God did not experiment creully on animals to try to get humans. Do you believe He experimented??

It's just genes? If one is a human, one has a living soul, but not otherwise? I think that's correct. What if there was a chimp genius, as smart a human (albeit at the lower range of normal)? Would the chimp thereby have a living soul?

Raw IQ is not all there is to conciuosness or whether something has a soul or not.
AI "knows" a lot, too. But few if anyone thinks it has a soul.

People are animals. Primates, hominids. That stuff.

There should be a 7th kingdom, the human kingdom. The status quo is wrong.

Fun fact: the number of Perfection in the Bible is 7.

Romans 1:22 , 23, and 25

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.


25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

God describes and condemns things that do this above. Evolution does this, because the creatures turn into better creatues.
Of birds. Dino into bird evolution. 4foot animals, like bears/hippos into whales. Or whatever. Crawling creatures, like "evolving fish".

Instead of God creating all the original kinds from no preexisting matter, Thiestic K2KE holds that He had to use preexisting matter.

Anyone can do ex materia. Only God can create ex Nihilo.


Which God is more Powerful?
One who used Ex materia creation like you think, or The One Who created ex Nihilo like the Bible states?

 

[Barbarian]

He could have used any means He liked. The point is, the Bible says He used nature to produce living things. As I reminded you, nature is also a miracle.

It's just that YE creationists object to that particular miracle.

That's an assumption and you have nothing to back that He DID use nature to make the original creatures.

We have His word.

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Which you refuse to accept. But it doesn't matter. He still did it.

 

[KV-44-v1]

the Bible says He used nature to produce living things. A

First you say evolution is extra-Biblical. Now you say it is Biblical.
Choose a ""hill to die on"" and STICK with it. James 1:8

Omniscient, you know

Yes. That is why Evo Algorithimz are a waste of "time". He ALREADY knows the best specs for animals BEFOREHAND. Your algorithms are a waste of time in God's big picture.

God is too fast for man to keep up. Man invented "millions of years".

If God used evo algo's, that implies He needed to learn what the algo would produce. If God learns that implies that He isn't Omniscient.

Fun fact: God did not use any ""processes"", design or chance, He just spoke and it was. Unless mabye you consider that a "process".

 

[KV-44-v1]

It's just that YE creationists object to that particular miracle

You object to the miracle of God's quickness.
Did Jesus take millions of years to turn the water into wine? Or was that just some story to represent a totally different thing???
YOU NEVER KNOW under Barbarian's mysterious, leave-you-guessing new theology that mixes K2KE and deeptime with Bible Truth!!


Reject K2KE and come to Biblical Knowledge and certainty!
God gave us knowledge, not vague stories. God did NOT start His Word with wild-card allegories like Barb thinks.
His ideology is designed to mingle with the worLd. He has never addressed this issue, because the truth is stronger than error.
The worLd hates the Biblical YEC truth because it is not its own. It is, in fact, revealed History by God. It is from the Word not the worLd.
The athiests have an iron grip influence on the west. His Bible-plus-naturalism ideology is fallout of this grip, accepting the corrosive Acid of Darwin with the vast ages too.
Is he of one mind? Seems not to be the case, as he has contradicted himself with regularity.

He accepts Jesus but thinks that God did not rest on the 7th day. He accepts that God did create, but he thinks that God did not kill ALL creatures outside the ark in the Flood and judge all man who wasnt on the Ark with the flood.

Which you refuse to accept. But it doesn't matter. He still did it.

Please show me a SINGLE ANIMAL that has been observed emerging from the earth like a character from the movie " Walking Dead ". I doubt you can.
Abiogenesis is unprovable and unproven.

Do you know about the left hand right hand protein problem? One of the biggest monkey wrenches (pun intended) in N-D Evo!

We never see creatures pop up out of the dirt. They always come from other creatures.
Nearly everything God miracolously did in the past does NOT continue today. Youve conflated Genesis History with current day affairs. That is NOT the route to go.

Can you give a single verse to back "God is still making animals"?? God RESTED on the 7th day.
Physics is why animals can and do reproduce. Animals nowadays are full of flaws. God is not responsible for flaws. Man is, because he sinned.

Dn't you think God is powerful and Intelligent enough to get animals to make animals? He doesn't need to make them Himself. His creation (animals) can make more instances of them. Humans can, too. He just made the original kinds and humans, and now more organisms can reproduce thanks to the original ones. God does not need to make each and every single creature.

Which is more efficient? Hand making every car yourself, or building a factory? Why do we have factories?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Barbarian

It is. Brains of people are brains of people. Not of animals. Animals and human were made different.


God did not experiment creully on animals to try to get humans. Do you believe He experimented??

Raw IQ is not all there is to conciuosness or whether something has a soul or not.
AI "knows" a lot, too. But few if anyone thinks it has a soul.


There should be a 7th kingdom, the human kingdom. The status quo is wrong.

Fun fact: the number of Perfection in the Bible is 7.

Romans 1:22 , 23, and 25

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.


25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

God describes and condemns things that do this above. Evolution does this, because the creatures turn into better creatues.
Of birds. Dino into bird evolution. 4foot animals, like bears/hippos into whales. Or whatever. Crawling creatures, like "evolving fish".

Instead of God creating all the original kinds from no preexisting matter, Thiestic K2KE holds that He had to use preexisting matter.

Anyone can do ex materia. Only God can create ex Nihilo.


Which God is more Powerful?
One who used Ex materia creation like you think, or The One Who created ex Nihilo like the Bible states?

 

[KV-44-v1]

As you just learned, science shows what happened in the unobserved past.

Then why does "what happened" change all the time? Not very reliable. We know that hitler murdered Jews, that is a fact and has not changed and will not change as long as theres a physucal world.

Evolutionary "science" about the past always changes because it is guessing and assumption. Not hard fact.
I get that Operational science changes. The present is dynamic and you never fully know what the future will bring.

But facts of history do not, so applying operational science approach to history is wrong and a stupid premise.

The notion that we can't know anything we didn't directly observe is so faulty, I'm surprised any YE creationist still tries to sell it.

Silly strawman. All or nothing fallacy.

 

[KV-44-v1]

The notion that we can't know anything we didn't directly observe is so faulty, I'm surprised any YE creationist still tries to sell it.

As you learned, this is a strawman and an all or nothing fallacy.

 

[Barbarian]

As you learned, this is a strawman and an all or nothing fallacy.

Nope. Many, many YE creationsts try that ploy. But good to know that you realize we can learn about when on many millions of years ago, from the evidence. There are certainly YE creationists like Kurt Wise, Todd Wood, Harold Coffin, John Woodmorappe, and others who never pretended otherwise.

 

[Barbarian]

Then why does "what happened" change all the time?

Doesn't. But we do get a clearly and clearer picture as we get more evidence. For example, the fossil record showed that mammals evolved from synapsid reptiles, but as more and more fossils were found, the details of how that evolution occurred were found.

We know that mammals evolved from reptiles and that will not change. We might dig up more details as to the way it happened, just like our understanding of the Nazi regime has changed as more information became known.

Evolutionary "science" about the past always changes because it is guessing and assumption.

Your assumption is incorrect. It's based on evidence, as you have seen. This is why as more and more evidence accumulates, we get a clearer and clearer picture of the evolutionary past. Would you like me to show you some more examples?

 

[Barbarian]

It is. Brains of people are brains of people. Not of animals. Animals and human were made different.

Humans, like all animals, were brought forth from the Earth as He made it to do. The difference is that God directly gives us a living soul.

God did not experiment creully on animals to try to get humans.

I've never bought the story that God didn't want animals to suffer, but was forced by Adam to make it so.

Do you believe He experimented??

It was no experiment. God knew that evolutionary processes are more effecient than design for complex problems. Man is just know beginning to realize that and apply His way to solve problems.

Raw IQ is not all there is to conciuosness or whether something has a soul or not.

But you think brains are? No, it's not a physical thing, nor is is anything science can explain. Why not listen to what God says?

There should be a 7th kingdom, the human kingdom. The status quo is wrong.

Again, you're trying to force God and his creation into nature. He's too big for that. We are animals, but thanks to God's gift of a living soul, that's not all we are. Let it be God's way.

Attempting to explain man's unique place in biological terms is a major error. YE creationists claiming to be wise and inventing their own explanations would do better to rely on God. The image of God is in our souls and minds, not in our bodies:

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.