[__ Science __ ] Evolution Is a Scientific Law?

[Barbarian]

You dodged around the question.

[/QUOTE]
Nope. I just exposed your dodge. YEC is more than a belief in a young Earth. As you learned, the SDAs invented YEC in the early 20th century.

Blaming Adam for death and suffering of animals is borderline blasphemous. Sorry, the idea that man forced God to harm animals isn't realistic.

What a stupid strawman of the YEC position.

Nope. They claim Adam caused God to do that. Adam was a man; he had no power at all to make God torture and kill animals. Or do you now admit that Adam did not have the power to cause God to do all that?

You don't have any evidence it is God Who is directly intervening and making animals Himself, rather than nature is simply making them.

Comes down to evidence. We observe animals coming about naturally. Just like your body did. God uses nature to create many things, as He tells us He did in Genesis.

No. God does not use "processes" as He can do anything instantly if He wishes.

God is not obligated to poof living things into existence, even if He can. He doesn't do it, regardless of what anyone would like.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth produce living creatures according to their kind

Yep. The point is you don't approve of the way He did it.

Please tell me how you reconcile God's Omniscience with needing to figure out things by using an evo algo.

So now you make up a silly story and want me to defend it? God is omnipotent. It's precisely why He doesn't have to "design." He uses evolution, because it is more efficient than design. Engineers just copy nature because God knew better than YECs.

He created nature to do what it does.

Is that true? Is that an objective fact?

For a Christian, it is.

Then why do we never see cows emerging from the ground?

If they did that would be contrary to God's way of creating things. Even knowledgeable YECs admit that the evidence shows that simple organisms were first brought forth from the Earth.

 

[Barbarian]

Nature could not make the FIRST, original creatures, that was something only God could do.

You just object to the way He did it.

That doesnt mean He used nature in Genesis.

He says He did. I believe Him. You should, too.

 

[KV-44-v1]

God is not obligated to poof living things into existence, even if He can

God is not obligated to use evo algorithms. Why do you believe that He was??

He uses evolution, because it is more efficient than desig

God knows what to use instead of needing to figure things out. He knows it He makes it!
No design "pRocEssEs", no evo algos.

If they did that would be contrary to God's way of creating thing

You said God used nature. So, what, God using nature was against God's Way? You contradict yourself.
How does your interpretation of "Let the earth bring forth" contradict cows emerging from the ground?? Elaborate.

Choose your hill to die on and stay with it. I will know if you try to run to the other hill.
You have done this "hill running" multiple times on multiple threads, indicating weak spots in your worldview. Just look for yourself.

Truly, darwinism has not been advantageous to your reason powers.

 

[KV-44-v1]

God is omnipotent.

But you "object" that He is Omniscient.
So far you have demonstrated strong belief in His Omnipotence, but seem to reveal, unintentionally, that darwinism has implications against His Omniscience and the fact He is All-Good.

So clearly we gather from your replies, that Darwinism definitely undermines God's Knowledge and Character. That's why youve emphasized His Power but neglected His Omniscience and perfect Goodness.

In no way has YEC doubted His power, as i have made CLEAR that design "Processes" were not used. And obviously, nor were evo algoes.

Creation vs evolution is not really an issue regarding God's Power.

 

[Barbarian]

I have to yet again remind you that God is omnipotent.

But you "object" that He is Omniscient.

I don't think you've considered this carefully. An omnipotent being would be, by definition, omniscient. First you decide that God can't do things He says in Genesis, and then you want Him to be omniscient. Pick one and stay with it.

So far you have demonstrated strong belief in His Omnipotence, but seem to reveal, unintentionally, that darwinism has implications against His Omniscience and the fact He is All-Good.

No, you're merely assuming that God is limited. As Christians have noted God is entirely capable of using contingency to effect His will as easily as He can use necessity. We can't predict contingency, but since God is omniscient, He can. And since nature is His creation, it is in His pronouncement, "very good." And no, Adam's sin did not force Him subject other animals to death and pain.

So clearly we gather from your replies, that Darwinism definitely undermines God's Knowledge and Character.

If that's what you gathered, you clearly don't get Darwin's theory. Just as you insert your own ideas into scripture, you insert your own ideas into science.

In no way has YEC doubted His power

And yet they assume that Adam had the power to make God subject animals to pain and death.

i have made CLEAR that design "Processes" were not used.

As you see, evolutionary processes are more efficient than design. Humans have to use algorithms to imitate God's creation. But of course, He doesn't.

Creation vs evolution is not really an issue regarding God's Power.

It is, if YECs think the death that Adam brought into the world is a physical one. It isn't for other Christians, of course.

 

[Barbarian]

(regarding the idea that since God could create all things instantly, He is obliged to do so)
God is not obligated to poof living things into existence, even if He can.

God is not obligated to use evo algorithms.

He doesn't. Humans have to use algorithms to copy things that God does by creation.

God knows what to use instead of needing to figure things out. He knows it He makes it!

Many things by evolutionary processes because it is most efficient. That's why we see it in nature. God created it for that purpose. We still see it acting today. Would you like some more examples?

So, what, God using nature was against God's Way?

No. You're contradicting yourself again. Nature is the way God created living things, according to Genesis.

How does your interpretation of "Let the earth bring forth" contradict cows emerging from the ground??

As your fellow YE creationists admit, the evidence shows that the first organisms were much simpler than vertebrates, and the fossil record is "very good" evidence that they evolved from those first organisms. So is genetics, which shows that the fossil record is correct.

Instead of changing your story every time you see evidence that undermines the old one, why not just try to put together a cogent YE argument for all of it.

Choose your hill to die on and stay with it.

 

[KV-44-v1]

First you decide that God can't do things He says in Genesis,

Oh thats your interpretation! Lol

God knows what to use instead of needing to figure things out. He knows it He makes it!
No design "pRocEssEs", no evo algos

You said God used nature. So, what, God using nature was against God's Way? You contradict yourself.

We still never see cows or germs or horses come from the earth's crust. Never have never will.
Man from dust was a one time event. Pretty sure that God is not forming anyone from dust now.
For what reasons would He still form ppl from dust? Can you explain why?

You have never once reconciled animals having defects, with an all-good God supposedly being the One responsible for STILL making new animals. Never. even. once.

Please do tell me why you believe that darwinism isn't an underminer of God's Character. Besides "God used it".

He doesn't.

He doesn't... what? He doesn't use evo algorithm? Ok, so you think He didn't use them then. Which is it? Did or didn't?

Just as you insert your own ideas into scripture

you've never once cited the verses i have "put ideas".

And yet they assume that Adam had the power to make God subject animals to pain and death.

And yet you misunderstand the YEC position. very often.

Idk how you got this from the socalled "literal" (really, more like objectively correct) """"interpretation"""" of that history.

So when God punishes sinners did they force God to punish them?

If you believe "Adam forced God" strawman of the Yec truth, then you should answer yes to be consistent.

But if you believe that He was NOT forced by sinners, then ditch the strawman.
God was just in delivering justice to adam's sin. He was not "forced" to be Just, no matter your belief.

As you see, evolutionary processes are more efficient than design

Yeah right. Which one takes the longest out of the three? Which one involves the most trial and error?

Design? Design PROCESSES? Evollution?

the evidence shows that the first organisms were much simpler than vertebrates,

if you believe plants were simpler.

Instead of changing your story every time you see evidence that undermines the old one,

tell me when i "changed my story" and compare the "old one" to the "new one". Am waiting.
Bill gates probably believes ND Evolution.

Choose your hill to die on and stay with

The worldview that focuses on ALL God's Characteristics, and accepts and preaches each of them. Not only His power.

The Bible. When taken to logical conclusion, youll only get the Yec truth.

 

[Barbarian]

We still never see cows or germs or horses come from the earth's crust.

But God says that's how life started. And scientists are beginning to realize that's exactly how it happened. Why not just accept it His way?

Man from dust was a one time event.

And yet the Bible says from dust you are and to dust you will return. If you think about it, you'll probably be able to figure out why that makes sense.

He doesn't... what? He doesn't use evo algorithm?

Those are man's imperfect imitation of God's evolution. You're still thinking of God as being limited. He isn't.

You have never once reconciled animals having defects, with an all-good God supposedly being the One responsible for STILL making new animals. Never. even. once.

Nevertheless, animals and humans are born with defects from time to time. Are you still arguing that Adam forced God to do this? Or are you just second-guessing God and the way He does things? Find on hill to die on, and stay with it.

As you see, evolutionary processes are more efficient than design .

Yeah right. Which one takes the longest out of the three?

According to engineers, design. That's why they copy God's method.

Bill gates probably believes ND Evolution.

You're kinda fixated on Bill Gates? I kinda doubt that he knows much more about evolution than you do.

The worldview that focuses on ALL God's Characteristics, and accepts and preaches each of them.

Except the way He creates living things.

The Bible. When taken to logical conclusion, youll only get the Yec truth.

As we've seen, the text itself rejects YE assumptions. Would you like me to show you, again?

 

[Barbarian]

So when God punishes sinners did they force God to punish them?

Actually, they punish themselves. Sinners intentionally remove themselves from God. And that is the punishment. But do you honestly think God decided to put countless trillions of animals though suffering and death to get even with Adam for his transgression? How could you even entertain that thought?

Why not just accept creation God's way?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Except the way He creates living things.

Before evolution and ND evolution were taught in schools, much of America was Christian and knew ore about their faith. Now? Athiesm and contraChristian values are one the rise, and those who claim to be Christian know less about their faith. So much for K2K Evo being "how" God made.

youd expect more spreading of teaching of how God made, to get more people to be for Him, not more against Him.
Why is the trend this way, and not inverse? Because K2K Evo erodes Biblical authority for people.

Allegorizing that which is clearly, obviously, intuitively, factually, true makes the Bible look "weak". Why did Jesus die if Genesis is mere allegory? Also you never mentioned WHICH verses of Genesis were allegory.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Why not

Why not:
1. list every verse of Genesis that you think is literal?

2. And then list every verse of Genesis that you think is allegory?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Man from dust was a one time event. Pretty sure that God is not forming anyone from dust now.
For what reasons would He still form ppl from dust? Can you explain why?

Please do tell me why you believe that darwinism isn't an underminer of God's Character. Besides [the belief that] God used it.

He doesn't use evo algorithm? Ok, so you think He didn't use them then. Which is it? Did or didn't?

And yet you misunderstand the YEC position. very often.

Idk how you got "adam forced God" from the socalled "literal" (really, more like objectively correct) """"interpretation"""" of that history.


If you believe "Adam forced God" strawman of the Yec truth, then you should answer yes to be consistent.

But if you believe that He was NOT forced by sinners, then ditch the strawman.
God was just in delivering justice to adam's sin. He was not "forced" to be Just, no matter your belief.

tell me when i "changed my story" and compare the "old one" to the "new one". Am waiting.

 

[Barbarian]

Before evolution and ND evolution were taught in schools, much of America was Christian and knew ore about their faith. Now?

About 70% of Americans are Christians:

United States - The World Factbook

www.cia.gov

Which seems like "much of America." It is true that since YE creationism was invented by the SDAs, many Christians now wrongly think that YEC is an essential part of our faith.

Athiesm and contraChristian values are one the rise

It's true that some sects of Christianity are declining rapidly.

A recent Christianity Today survey revealing a dramatic drop in church attendance of Americans identifying as evangelical Christians has prompted much hand-wringing among evangelical leaders. They are quick to blame cultural changes and a rejection of traditional values. But the truth is, the evangelical church and its leaders have no one to blame but themselves.

The percentage of Americans identifying as evangelical Christians declined from 23% in 2006 to 14% in 2020, an astonishing drop in just over a decade. This is partly due to generational differences, with younger evangelicals diverging from older evangelicals on issues like Israel, gender roles, and the environment.

The Precipitous Decline of the American Evangelical Church: Abandoning Biblical Truth for Political Power

A recent Christianity Today survey revealing a dramatic drop in church attendance of Americans identifying as evangelical Christians has prompted much hand-wringing among evangelical leaders. They are quick to blame cultural changes and a rejection of traditional values.

www.linkedin.com

A tendency to adopt extremist political stands, and a loss of focus on the core of Christian beliefs seem to be most responsible, but a misguided jihad against science is also partly to blame.

 

[Barbarian]

Why did Jesus die if Genesis is mere allegory?

If you consider allegory and parables to be "mere", you've missed the message God has for you. His allegories and parables are eternally true. Jesus died because we needed a savior. No sacrifice humans could do would atone for the sin we were under. A perfect sacrifice by a sinless redeemer was necessary. You don't have to hate evolution; all you have to do is accept the gift of salvation from Him.

 

[Barbarian]

Why not:
1. list every verse of Genesis that you think is literal?

2. And then list every verse of Genesis that you think is allegory?

You mean the first three chapters? Did you know that Genesis is much more than the creation story? That's a lot of stuff.

For a good account by an early theologian admired by Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians alike:

De Genesi ad litteram - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KV-44-v1]

youd expect more spreading of teaching of how God made (in YOUR belief, how He made is ND Evo), to get more people to be for Him, not more against Him.
Why is the trend this way, and not inverse? Because K2K Evo erodes Biblical authority for people.

You mean the first three chapters?

Then why do you frequently say "Genesis is allegory" instead of "The 1st three chapters are allegory"??

 

[KV-44-v1]

If you consider allegory and parables to be "mere", you've missed the message God has for you.

You probably consider the objective history in Genesis and God's designs - which had NO PROCESSES involved - to be mere.

His allegories and parables are eternally true.

Please demonstrate how allegories can be "True".

Jesus died because we needed a savior. No sacrifice humans could do would atone for the sin we were under. A perfect sacrifice by a sinless redeemer was necessary.

Yes

You don't have to hate evolution; all you have to do is accept the gift of salvation from Him.

yes

 

[KV-44-v1]

Which seems like "much of America." It is true that since YE creationism was invented by the SDAs, many Christians now wrongly think that YEC is an essential part of our faith.

Lool. You said most Christians these days believe OEK2KE .
Which is it, do most believe darwin or God?



Many Christian leaders are giving forth an uncertain sound!“For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?” (1 Corinthians 14:8).If you ask the secularists where the universe and humans come from, by and large, they will give you a very distinct message. It’s a very certain and distinct sound. Even though there may be differences in the details, the basic message is the same. It goes something like this:A big bang brought the universe and subsequently the earth into existence billions of years ago.Somehow matter over millions of years formed the molecule of heredity.Through natural processes, eventually, life evolved.Over millions of years, one kind of creature evolved into a totally different kind.Fossils were laid down over millions of years as life evolved.Apelike creatures evolved into man.In summary, the universe and life were formed over billions of years as a result of naturalistic evolutionary processes. The world gives a certain sound and it’s basically the same sound.The above is basically taught as fact in education systems of the world, through the media, museums, and so on. This message permeates the world.Now, if you ask Christians and Christian leaders and academics how the universe and life including humans came into existence, there will be a variety of answers that go something like this:God created but over millions of years.God created in six days like Genesis states.God used evolution to evolve animals but created man directly.God used evolution to evolve man from apelike creatures.God used the big bang to bring the universe into existence.God created billions of years ago and then recreated the earth and life in six days.God created in six days, but the days were long periods of time.Fossils were formed during the flood of Noah’s day.Fossils were laid down over millions of years.Noah’s flood was just a local event.And many other variations.As you look at the above, we see the church giving all sorts of positions (an uncertain sound) in regard to Genesis and the origin of life and the universe. And even though a small minority proclaim Genesis as they should, the majority are preaching a message that Genesis is not to be taken literally, but man’s evolutionary beliefs are to be taken literally!Think about that! So many people take man’s words literally but God’s Word allegorically!So much of the church is giving an uncertain sound. No wonder so many in the church are confused about what to believe concerning Genesis. Sadly, so many of the young people have rejected God’s Word and walked away from the church.Though really, I would say that in one way, much of the church is giving a “certain” and “distinct” sound, but it’s the wrong certain sound. The sound they are giving is that people need to believe what the secularists believe about the origin of life and the universe, but just add God to it. The “certain” sound is to trust man’s word above God’s Word. The distinct sound is to take man’s word literally but not God’s when it comes to Genesis!Because the church is giving an indistinct and uncertain sound about God’s Word in Genesis this results in undermining the authority of the Word of God.But we can give a clear certain sound by standing on the authority of God’s Word…from the very first verse!

x.com/aigkenham/status/1849041309979365520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

 

[KV-44-v1]

allegory

The Failure of John Dewey

The Bible—Is It True or Is It Truth? (And Does It Matter?)



Not in a Million Years!

Paganism: Out of the Shadows

In a certain sense you don’t convert to paganism; you are a pagan. It is more of an inner discovery than a conversion.

answersingenesis.org

 

[Barbarian]

(About 70% of Americans are Christians)

Which seems like "much of America." It is true that since YE creationism was invented by the SDAs, many Christians now wrongly think that YEC is an essential part of our faith.

Which is it, do most believe darwin or God?

I think more Christians know what God said, than know what Darwin said. But those who actually know what Darwin said, tend to believe he's right and God is right. Which of the four points of Darwin's theory do you think have been shown to be wrong?

That block of text you posted is a perfect example, of some perhaps well-meaning person who has no idea what Darwin's theory is actually about.

You probably consider the objective history in Genesis and God's designs - which had NO PROCESSES involved - to be mere.

Actually, God created nature to do exactly what it does. How is that "mere?" While some Christians deny His hand in evolution, evolution works only because He created nature to do HIs will.

Please demonstrate how allegories can be "True".

Do you doubt that Abraham had two sons? Yet this is an allegory for the difference between those free in God and those subject to sin.

Just ask Paul.

"Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. One, the child of the slave, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother." - Galatians 4:21-26

This is just a reminder that when someone says the Bible is full of allegory, this is not a backdoor into undermining the authority of Scripture. The Bible is full of all sorts of things from allegory to poem to prose to history to every genre you can imagine. The Bible is not to be read literally - Even Paul did not read it literally.

Allegory in the Bible is not less than True. It is more than True.

It is Holy.

The Bible is Full of Allegory - Just Ask Paul — Be the change

These days anytime you speak about the Bible you often have to qualify your love for the Bible before you speak. Even if you are saying nice things about the Bible, it is often the case that many of us qualify our comments least someone interprets what we are saying as diminishing the Bible. It is

www.jasonvalendy.net

Do you think Paul is wrong? And if you're right and Paul is wrong, what else in the Bible might be wrong?