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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution is not based on empirical evidence

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blueeyeliner said:
:B-fly: First of all,the idea of evolution was invented by pagan religious folks who also claimed faith in gods/godesses...

That really depends on what you mean by "the idea of evolution."

There are no facts to prove nor support evolution.

Actually, there are. From diverse and numerous fields; facts ranging from anatomical quirks to fossils to genetics to the way embryos develop to the very geographical arrangement of living things.

Hence the overwhelming consensus of scientists qualified to comment, if perhaps not laymen, who often are ill-equipped (through no fault of their own) to tear the "ChristianAnswers.net" and "AnswersInGenesis" misinformation to shreds.
 
blueeyeliner said:
:B-fly: There are no facts to prove nor support evolution.
Maybe to you there is,but there is none to me.

Sticking your head in the sand like that is a display of fear and ignorance.

What do you fear from the theory of evolution? It doesn't negate your christian faith, it doesn't disprove your god. It does nothing to any religion whatsoever.

It's not a belief, but science. How do you explain the genetic simliarities between animals?

You consider evolution to be false, because there are no facts to support evolution, yet you consider Creationism to be supportive of facts, when in truth Creationists don't use facts, or do experiments, or observe?
 
The Tuatha'an said:
How do you explain the genetic simliarities between animals?

A caveat is in order. Biological similarities by themselves are not a very strong argument for evolution, but the patterns of similarities we see--yielding the infamous double-nested hierarchy of life--are.

You can classify pretty much anything into a hierarchy, but only evolutionary related things into a double-nested hierarchy. For example, if you take several computer systems or cars, both specially manufactured things, you can classify them by speakers (attached to/separate from monitor), motherboard brand, processor speed, amount and type of RAM, graphic card, etc. Each of the classification schemes will result in a different final order.

On the other hand, you can classify animals on the basis of a wide variety of features, and the classification will be more or less the same regardless of which features you base it on. Humans will virtually always be closer related to apes, than say to invertebrates despite the comparison method used. In sharp contrast, Computer A will be much closer to Computer B, Computer C, Computer D, etc. depending on which classification scheme you opt for.

This occurs because when something is specially created, modular reuse of components is inevitable. A designer is not limited by evolutionary history--He could freely mix and match components from a wide variety of designs, resulting in a hodgepodge of possible classification schemes.

Evolutionary processes, however, cannot mix-and-match intelligently and independently. If something develops in the mammal lineage once it's split from reptiles, it's not gonna spontaneously appear in the reptile lineage.

This only applies to complex features, of course. Analogies, like different types of flight, can develop independently, but you'll never find the same complex feature, down to little details, appear elsewhere than its patron lineage.

To put it simply, if we found a bird with pterosaur wings, or a whale with shark gills, or any of a wide variety of possible chimeras that are perfectly plausible creatures yet violate the limits evolution allows for, the theory is toast. But we don't. Each and every lifeform we've ever studied, barring those engaged in demonstrable horizontal gene transfer (which is the bacterial equivalent of mix-and-match, since they actually do exchange components freely), has been consistent in this regard.

This line of evidence really shines when correlated with the fossil record. It lets us predict, for example, that organisms with traits shared between X and Y lifeforms (say, reptiles and mammals) appeared earlier than either in the geologic record. Inevitably, these unlikely (from a creationist perspective) predictions come true with the discovery of fossils that are proto-mammalia, yet similar to reptiles, for examples. And this insight into past history of life on earth is possible merely from studying modern animals, which shouldn't be if they're unrelated and hence have no traces of ancient history in their very anatomy and genetics to be studied!

The same thing, FYI, is used in regard to Biblical research and history in general. The criterion of multiple attestation, which says a tradition independently attested in more than one source goes back earlier than both authors wrote, is a prime example of evolutionary insights applied to Bible studies. Quite ironic, wouldn't you agree? ;)

--Silver
 
Sylvester Haze said:
blueeyeliner said:
:B-fly: First of all,the idea of evolution was invented by pagan religious folks who also claimed faith in gods/godesses...

That really depends on what you mean by "the idea of evolution."

There are no facts to prove nor support evolution.

Actually, there are. From diverse and numerous fields; facts ranging from anatomical quirks to fossils to genetics to the way embryos develop to the very geographical arrangement of living things.

Hence the overwhelming consensus of scientists qualified to comment, if perhaps not laymen, who often are ill-equipped (through no fault of their own) to tear the "ChristianAnswers.net" and "AnswersInGenesis" misinformation to shreds.

:B-fly: I do not believe any of that at all.
I have studied this long and hard and there is no evidence to support your
claims. The world is much more liberal now,so you can expect that there
would be more liberal scientists,yet not one of them can prove evolution,or show anything to support it.
Evolution started with pagan religion,and as ancient as it is,there is still
no evidence for it.
 
The Tuatha'an said:
blueeyeliner said:
:B-fly: There are no facts to prove nor support evolution.
Maybe to you there is,but there is none to me.

Sticking your head in the sand like that is a display of fear and ignorance.

What do you fear from the theory of evolution? It doesn't negate your christian faith, it doesn't disprove your god. It does nothing to any religion whatsoever.

It's not a belief, but science. How do you explain the genetic simliarities between animals?

You consider evolution to be false, because there are no facts to support evolution, yet you consider Creationism to be supportive of facts, when in truth Creationists don't use facts, or do experiments, or observe?

:roll: Sorry if this upsets you,but I have no fear of evolution. It is false,and I have heard all of your claims before from many die hards
who refused to let go,no matter how often they were shown to be in great
error. They believe in people who claim things that just are not there and those who want to believe in evolution.
I have had these same debates so many times,and the same thing always
happens in the end.
http://www.rae.org/lucyknee.html
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm
http://www.resurrectisis.org?PaganEvolution.htm
http://www.evidencesofcreation.com
 
blueeyeliner said:
I do not believe any of that at all.

I have studied this long and hard and there is no evidence to support your claims.

I won't deny that's the impression you can get from studying (exclusively or for the most part) the sources you've quoted so far. For all their faults, professional creationists excel in using every trick in the book to misinform about the evidence, from misquoting scientists to selectively omitting damaging facts to simply inventing them out of thin air. However, that won't change reality--that they, and you by proxy--are wrong on this.

The world is much more liberal now,so you can expect that there
would be more liberal scientists...

And you'll notice that common descent of life (among other things) easily triumphed in the face of adversity. Scientists may be ideologues, but they still have to face up to the evidence. When creationists couldn't in the 19th century, with everything from geology to biogeography combining to make a literal Biblicist interpretation of the data suspect at best and ridiculous at worst, that spelled the end of that.

...yet not one of them can prove evolution,or show anything to support it.

500 trillion or so peer-reviewed journal articles and real-world applications of evolutionary principles would beg to differ. Putting aside Hovindian "proof beyond any doubt whatsoever, such that God himself couldn't show it" standards, evolution is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean unreasonable doubts can't exist, of course; but they're no more the problem of scientists than any other bizarre denial of a (virtually) universally-supported mainstream theory for ideological reasons.

Evolution started with pagan religion...

As I said, this depends on exactly what you mean. The notion of transforming creatures is very old, indeed, but you would be hard-pressed to find significant resemblances to modern theories beyond that. But regardless, those early speculations were inspired by some of the same evidence we can see today. Evolution is, in some ways, painfully obvious just from looking at the similarities between animals; that the ancients (partially) realized it on occasion, even though they had no clue about natural selection, DNA, etc. should not be surprising. Even if they never suspected anything remotely similar, we'd still know better.
 
Sylvester Haze said:
blueeyeliner said:
I do not believe any of that at all.

I have studied this long and hard and there is no evidence to support your claims.

I won't deny that's the impression you can get from studying (exclusively or for the most part) the sources you've quoted so far. For all their faults, professional creationists excel in using every trick in the book to misinform about the evidence, from misquoting scientists to selectively omitting damaging facts to simply inventing them out of thin air. However, that won't change reality--that they, and you by proxy--are wrong on this.

:Fade-color Look,it is painfully clear that you cannot accept the opinions,
of others that differ from yours,but I am confident if you study from both
angles,side by side with an open mind,you'll learn what is true and what is
gross error and false.
Man made views are biased and most conflict with one another.
besides,if you want to debate alot better,it would be wise to learn all
you can about the other side of the debate by learning all you can about it,
and become just as educated in it as you are in your own side.
There are very good sources available that you can learn from.
http://www.projectcreation.org
http://www.amazingbible.org/
http://www.absolutetruth.net/creation/
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org
The GEOLOGY Book by: Dr. John D. Morris
 
8-) It is also important to note that human hair is different than all forms
of animal fur,feathers,scales,ect....
Also,Humans do not go into any kind of seasonal heat,and do not have
intercourse only when they are fertile. This clearly seperates us from the animal kingdom.We cannot call humans animals no more than we can call
Angels birds!

Human skin is also very different from the animals.
Baboon hearts are very different than human hearts. Remember the child
Doctor's gave a heart transplant to using a baboon heart? The child died.
The child didn't live long at all.
To say that humans are animals is to say all atheists are from another planet.
 
It is also important to note that human hair is different than all forms
of animal fur,feathers,scales,ect....

How is it different? Source please.

Also,Humans do not go into any kind of seasonal heat,and do not have
intercourse only when they are fertile.

Nor to many other animals....your point? Dolphins and many primates have sex for fun as well as procreation. Some species of primates even have orgies.

Human skin is also very different from the animals.

How so? Source please. Also, what is the relevance of having different skin, if we do?

Baboon hearts are very different than human hearts. Remember the child
Doctor's gave a heart transplant to using a baboon heart? The child died.
The child didn't live long at all.

Gee...great anecdote. Actually, humans use a variety of different animal parts...it's called xenografting.

If you need a heart valve replacement, you can choose between a pig's valve or a cow. It is quite sucessful.

It's true that whole organ xenografting has not been terribly successful, but neither has it been between any other two species.
 
ThinkerMan said:
It is also important to note that human hair is different than all forms
of animal fur,feathers,scales,ect....

How is it different? Source please.

:B-fly: You need a source? You can just look at them and tell. Thats just
common sense,but if you need a source I'll see what I can find for you.

Without being the animal or being God,how could you know for a fact that
any animal has mating just for fun?

If things evolved,why are fish in the Ocean like they should be,and not in
the sky? Why do fish have bodies just right for living in the water?
How did food evolve along with man kind and animals,ect?
There is just no way that we evolved or the animals.
If you don't believe in God,then just say that,why try to prove something
that cannot be proven?
God has been seen by Moses. He is a very credible witness,yet no one has
ever declared they have actually seen evolution take place so long ago.
Jesus was seen in ancient times and christians can still see him.
no one has ever seen an Ape turn into a human.
The places in the Bible did exist and so did the people.
The bible has many witnesses to support it in ancient times to the present,but evolution has very few if anywitnesses to support it in all time frames.
The Sun didn't just get stuck in the sky by chance,no more than a Monkey can drive a car on a busy freeway.
 
blueeyeliner said:
If things evolved,why are fish in the Ocean like they should be,and not in the sky?

You mean like this one?

flyingfish5.jpg


;)

no one has ever seen an Ape turn into a human.

Perhaps not, but will seeing a cow give birth to a lamb and an Iranian women birthing a frog suffice?

Now that the comic relief is done, I'll have to bow out of this topic. You would do well to take your own advice--"learn all you can about the other side of the debate"--to heart, and clear up some of those common misconceptions. TalkOrigins will help, and they actually link to 'rebuttals', which is more than I can say for creationist sites on the whole. Otherwise, you're doing Christianity no favors, and probably only giving unbelievers more reason to think it ridiculous. :(
 
You need a source? You can just look at them and tell. Thats just
common sense,but if you need a source I'll see what I can find for you.

Yes, I would like that source. Common sense tells me that hair is hair is hair, not withstanding small differences between species which is expected.

I guess the sense isn't that common, if we all don't share it.

Without being the animal or being God,how could you know for a fact that
any animal has mating just for fun?

Because most animals mate only estrus, or when the female is able to conceive (this would be like humans only mating in the short 3-4 days each month the female is ovulating).

The animals I described have sex, well, pretty much whenever they please, regardless of their ovulation. Again, just like humans do.

If things evolved,why are fish in the Ocean like they should be,and not in
the sky? Why do fish have bodies just right for living in the water?

Because otherwise they would die. Much for the same reason we would die underwater.

I'm sorry blue, but this shows such fundamental ignorance about the tenets of evolution and natural selection that it taints your posts considerably.

I would be extremely interested in seeing a post from you, perhaps a new thread, that accurate describes the theory of evolution and natural selection. I would be happy, as would others here I'm sure, to take a stab at explaining the creationist theory. We'll see who's definition is closer to the other's expectation.

How did food evolve along with man kind and animals,ect?

By observing the fossil record and evolutionary history, carnivores were the last to rise. Obviously, plant life, using photosynthesis, was the first major life to evolve. Energy was created from the sun, not consumed.

Herbivores then evolved to consume the suns energy indirectly by eating plant life, then carnivores came about to take advantage of the herbivores.

This food chain exists today:

Grass uses the suns energy to grow. A cow eats the grass to gain that energy. Man eats the cow to get the cow's stored energy. Thus, the grass evolved first, then the cow, then man. This is supported by evolutionary theory.

This is a much truncated rendition of what happened, but serves to illustrate the point.

If you don't believe in God,then just say that,why try to prove something
that cannot be proven?

I don't beleive in God. I've said it numerous times. I am "proving" nothing, simply using the information around me to construct a theory for why things are the way they are.

God has been seen by Moses. He is a very credible witness,yet no one has
ever declared they have actually seen evolution take place so long ago.
Jesus was seen in ancient times and christians can still see him

How credible is Moses? I cannot cross-examine him. I know nothing about him except what was written about him hundreds of years after his death.

There is not one person in the bible who claims to have seen Jesus before he supposedly ascended into heaven.

Paul claims to have seen him after this point. As far as personal revelations from Jesus to contemporary Christians, there is nothing I can say about that because I was obviously left out of the loop on that one.

no one has ever seen an Ape turn into a human.

Ridiculous point. Please tell me one evolutionist who says that an ape will turn into a human. Evolution does NOT say that will happen. Quit using that point, please.

The places in the Bible did exist and so did the people.
The bible has many witnesses to support it in ancient times to the present,but evolution has very few if anywitnesses to support it in all time frames.

Likely they did exist, but that doesn't mean that the records of their deeds are accurate. Dante existed, but do you think he actually went to hell and purgatory? Joseph Smith existed, with many witnesses, but I have a feeling that doesn't mean much to you. Homer existed, does that mean the Iliad is a historical account?

The bible's ultimate witness is itself. Like I mentioned above, there are no witnesses to the life of Jesus in the bible.
 
Sylvester Haze said:
blueeyeliner said:
If things evolved,why are fish in the Ocean like they should be,and not in the sky?

You mean like this one?

:B-fly: I use to fish with my Dad when I was a little girl and he had better
plastic lures than that toy fish. We can even see the box it came in!

Actually I believe you are the one who has every reason to want out of this debate.
Fish don't fly in the heavens,but some do leap across the water.
people don't walk at birth,but many animals do.
 
(Quote by Thinkerman) I don't beleive in God. I've said it numerous times. I am "proving" nothing, simply using the information around me to construct a theory for why things are the way they are.

:Fade-color It appears that you don't trust christians to tell the truth more than the secular folks.
I suppose you think so many people who have chosen not to tell lie's and
be as honest as they can would all lie,right?
I don't think that many witnesses are wrong.
Many of us have seen Jesus Christ,and many of us know how powerful Jesus is in our lives. If what you say is true,why does anyone believe in Jesus Christ at all?

From personal experience,I can tell you that Jesus is alive and well!
I know this for a fact,amen.
You don't have to believe me,but when you see it all start to happen just
as the bible foretold it would,I hope you'll go ahead and choose Jesus,instead of the One World Religious system and government.
Your soul is very valuable to the one who made it,and a soul is a terrible
thing to waste.
I don't want you to hate me because of this debate,but I'd rather you
hate me now,if it means you'll be saved later on.
I'm glad you are thinker,and you should be,so why not re-examine things?
The point is,you do have choices,and making the choice to be saved or not
is the most personal choice you will ever make in your life.
 
blueeyeliner said:
:Fade-color It appears that you don't trust christians to tell the truth more than the secular folks.
I suppose you think so many people who have chosen not to tell lie's and
be as honest as they can would all lie, right?
I don't think that many witnesses are wrong.
Many of us have seen Jesus Christ,and many of us know how powerful Jesus is in our lives. If what you say is true,why does anyone believe in Jesus Christ at all?
On an average of three times a day, someone reports having seen Elvis. Thousands of Americans have testified to having seen UFOs or being abucted. To this day, reports continue to come in sightings of Bigfoot. Why would so many people "lie"?
Because it's folklore. Some how, some way, some story gets started of an extraordinary event, and the will that people have to see these things will "enable" them to see what they want to see. People want to believe that they're going to see something special, so in their minds, they create a scenario in which this happens.

I treat claims of encounters with Christ the same way. There are a whole bunch of people who claim to have seen him, but so far, I see no reason to think that their so-called experiences are any more credible than those of people who claim to have seen Elvis or little green alien men.
 
ThinkerMan said:
You need a source? You can just look at them and tell. Thats just
common sense,but if you need a source I'll see what I can find for you.

Yes, I would like that source. Common sense tells me that hair is hair is hair, not withstanding small differences between species which is expected.

I guess the sense isn't that common, if we all don't share it.

:Fade-color please look at these sites.
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/onthe ... photo.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... ml?sect=21
 
Mr. Neil said:
I treat claims of encounters with Christ the same way. There are a whole bunch of people who claim to have seen him, but so far, I see no reason to think that their so-called experiences are any more credible than those of people who claim to have seen Elvis or little green alien men.

:B-fly: So see why some of us don't believe you?
I treat stories like yours as childih fantasy and fiction.
it's all so silly.
 
blueeyeliner said:
If things evolved,why are fish in the Ocean like they should be,and not in the sky?
Fingers of a fish from PBS at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_03.html:
l_034_03_m.jpg


Or look at a mudskipper from http://members.ozemail.com.au/~thebobo/mud.htm:
boddarti_fight.jpg

From the website:
The Mudskipper's name fits perfectly. It spends more time skipping across the mudflats than swimming in the water. It will even climb up a mangrove tree in search of food. Mudskippers spend most of their time out of the water, but they need to keep their skin moist. When they get too dry, they roll in puddles, and wipe their eye with a wet fin. These fish can move much faster on land than in the water. They hunt energetically for small creatures, such as insects.

So maybe this shows that there is some credibility that fish could have come out of the water and formed land animals over time.

Quath
 
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