[_ Old Earth _] Evolution is not science

[ReginaForbes]

May I ask you where you learned these definition of Evolution from? Mainly because in biology Evolution is short for the theory of Evolution which is testable because its based on genetics and population mechanics.

There are 6 meanings to term Evolution:
Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”
Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen
Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: variations form within the “kind”

For the sake of brevity, we will keep it to Organic Evolution and Cosmic Evolution.

Mainly because in biology Evolution is short for the theory of Evolution which is testable because its based on genetics and population mechanics. Big Bang Cosmology is based on Redshift and our current understanding of Math and Physics, which are testable.

Testable how? Can the results be repeated in a laboratory? Have the origins been OBSERVED? Did someone witness the "big bang" do we have it on film? "Pics or it didn't happen." as they say.

Abiogenesis is a chemistry concept based on what we understand about Protein strains and cell development.

Life cannot come from non-life. protein stands and cells are components of living organisms, not the organism itself. What you said is basically like saying the spark plug to a car is the whole engine.

The four laws of Thermodynamics are based on Newtonian models that explain how energy works but is not perfect considering that a lot of Newtonian Mechanics break down once we start getting into quantum physics. That is where Einstein, Heisenberg, and Faraday start becoming more authoritative, but I'm not a physics man so I'll have to get verification on that.

So you're expecting rain to fall UP one day, or maybe you're expecting when you throw a baseball it'll just STOP in mid-air? Just because nothing makes sense when studying quantum physics, doesn't mean that suddenly gravity just stops working. HA! Maybe your brain dis-integrates but the world doesn't suddenly stop spinning!!

You can believe whatever you want, however you won't get much traction amongst those of us who have spent a considerable amount of time studying physics, Chemistry, geology, Biology, etc if your concepts and claims are based on ignorance or shaky foundations.

Here's a pop quiz for you? DO YOU KNOW EVERYTHING?

Romans 1: 20-22 & 25
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, ...Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Without God, there is no understanding. Who do you think created the very men and women who have contributed to the fields of science and technology, etc??

Who do you think has woven the fabric of reality, who created the very laws of nature which govern our world? Who guides the rivers to flow into the oceans, who has told the sun when and where to rise and set in the sky? Were you there when God made the earth and the angels shouted for joy? Do you know the depths of His wisdom? Do you know when He has decided to prepare the wedding feast for His Only Begotten Son? Do you know the names written in the Lamb's book of life? Have you seen the face of the fallen one or prophesied his demise? These things you cannot answer and yet you presume to know more than He who has done all these things.

I can say that I don't know everything and don't presume to know what I don't. However I can say that even if I wasn't there at the beggining or seen everything, I have spent a great chunk of my life learning about Technology, Biology, and to a lesser degree Music, art, Chemistry, and physics that I can understand what we have found through research, exploration, and development.

I am humble in the regards that I don't claim to know everything, but I think I am safe to say that I know a little more about the subject than a casual reader or hobbyist. Unless we are talking about Microbiology.....there I just lay under a pile of blankets and cry.

 

[Free]

Scripture itself says "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"- John 3:12 Thus God offers us a way to TEST the Scriptures to see if they really are TRUE. Thus, you test the scriptures using science.

Where does Scripture say to use science to test Scripture?

As an example, what does the Bible say of the earth? If it says it is flat, then we MUST reject the entirety of scripture as one lie taints all of it (a little bit of leaven leaveneth the whole lump). So what does Scripture say about the earth? We'll use Isaiah 40:22- "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" Now as you know the Bible was NOT originally written in English, so the word in contention- "circle" which in the original Hebrew is: (חוּג chûg), which means: "Circle, SPHERE, or Arch." And as science has proven, the earth is a sphere. Thus, God's word is scientifically testable.

And yet, most translations, if not all, say "circle". You cannot simply go a pick a definition of a word that suits what you want. The problem is that you don't seem to understand how language in the Bible is used, and that "circle" is a very valid meaning. There is no need to have to find some other definition. From a distance a sphere looks like a circle. It obviously doesn't mean that it is a literal circle, just that that is what it appears as. We simply cannot take such statements as being scientific statements.

As it says in 1 Thessalonians 5- we are to test the scriptures and accept what is good. And according to Isaiah 1:18 "Come, let us REASON together." So, when evolutionists say we evolved, I have a choice, accept evolution and reject the Bible or accept the Bible and reject evolution. It is a choice we all must make for as it says "No one can serve two masters."- Matthew 6:24

A couple of things: 1) it depends on what you mean by "evolution," and 2) you are making a philosophical category error--you are essentially equating evolution and God, but God is an intelligent agent and evolution is a mechanism. As John Lennox says, it's like confusing the engine of a Ford car with Mr. Ford himself.

 

[Milk-Drops]

There are 6 meanings to term Evolution:
Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”
Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen
Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: variations form within the “kind”

For the sake of brevity, we will keep it to Organic Evolution and Cosmic Evolution.

I'm sorry but this is where we are going to have to start understanding each other. In my entire scholastic career, never was evolution defined in these ways. This seems like a redefinition of several different fields of study in order to avoid talking about any of them specifically. For instance Cosmic Evolution seems to take the fields of Cosmology, Physics, and astrology and mash them into an assumption that none of them make on their own. Chemical evolution actually is its own field and has nothing to do with the origin of the elements on the periodic table. Also no, not all the elements have their origins in hydrogen. You might want to look into fission and fussion to better understand this. Stellar evolution seems redundant because how stars and planets form is covered by multiple concepts in Physics, astrology, and cosmology as per the Cosmic Evolution category. Organic evolution would be abiogenesis, but its as large field and there is no single theory that dominates the field right now, except some concepts from protein and proto-cell origins covered in Organic Chemistry. Micro and Macro Evolution seem to be the closest thing to what is actually meant by the theory of Evolution, but they seem to be arbitrary considering that species is a taxonomic/phylogeny category/'label given to organism that have had enough change in allele frequencies to warrant a diversion of categorization.

The theory of Evolution deals more with population mechanics and thanks to scientists such as Ghould, MIller, Mendel, and several since have been able to track down and make the field of Phylogeny very useful for understanding breeding and genetics.

Testable how? Can the results be repeated in a laboratory? Have the origins been OBSERVED? Did someone witness the "big bang" do we have it on film? "Pics or it didn't happen." as they say.

Considering your 6 definitions, I can understand if think there is no testable way to observe Evolution. The misconception is that The theory of Evolution isn't what states that Humans came from monkies or that the universe came from a singularity. The reason why these statements are excepted is based on president. Let me explain.

The theory of Evolution is based on population Mechanics. One mechanic is called Natural selection. Natural selection explains that organisms best fit for their environment will pass on their traits more easily. Genetics shows us how to track the said traits through Mendel's rigorous study of generations and phenotype. Taxonomy (classification based on morphology) tracks anatomical structures and separates organisms into larger groups based on said criteria.

Through rigorous testing of each concept ( Natural selection, Genetics, taxonomy) we are able to confirm patterns of how organisms adapt, change, and inherit traits. Phylogeny ( study of genetic classification) takes all of this information and makes prediction of what we expect to find in the past and about how to address genetic issues here in the present.

Phylogeny then demonstrates a tested view of origins from the larger group Mammals to carnivores, to old world monkies, to apes, to great apes, to Hominids, to us. This is based on rigorous research, inquiry, testing, and experimentation from the before mentioned fields. Together all these concepts conclude ( but with plenty of room for improvement) on how we understand evolution today. Asking me for a single test for all of that would be ludicrous. However with enough study and research it can be understood that its way more complex then the six types you mentioned earlier.

Life cannot come from non-life. protein stands and cells are components of living organisms, not the organism itself. What you said is basically like saying the spark plug to a car is the whole engine.

I think you misunderstand what I mean and the concept of abiogenesis. Not to mention that the concept of life not coming from non life refers to complex cells and organisms don't just come into being, but that is not what abiogenesis states. From my little knowledge in the field ( remember I'm not a microbiologist or biochemist) is that the basic components of cells is based on protein strains, and many experiments have demonstrated that protein strains can form more complex proto cells under certain circumstances. Are they full functioning organisms? No, but they do show that the foundations can be explained through natural means in chemistry. However, as I mentioned, this isn't my field and my knowledge of it is pretty basic. I could probably find you some literature on the subject if you are interested.

So you're expecting rain to fall UP one day, or maybe you're expecting when you throw a baseball it'll just STOP in mid-air? Just because nothing makes sense when studying quantum physics, doesn't mean that suddenly gravity just stops working. HA! Maybe your brain dis-integrates but the world doesn't suddenly stop spinning!!

The examples you mentioned above don't pertain to quantum mechanics, since quantum mechanics is more a study of particles, waves, quarks, and fields, so I don't' expect the law and theory of gravity to change, but I do expect that when we reach quantum levels of magnitude when discussion physics and cosmology to apply. As I mentioned I'm not a physicist but I can help find some literature if you are interested. I think Barbarian has a better baring in this field than I do, so maybe give him a PM.

Here's a pop quiz for you? DO YOU KNOW EVERYTHING?

Far from it, but I think I know a bit more about Biology than you do, but you probably know more in certain areas of life than I do. I do try to avoid relativistic comparison though. Considering I'd probably be closely identified as an Objectivist.

 

[Edward]

Edward, I understand what you mean, but I don't think you understand some of the consequences of what you are saying. Sure, you put your faith in God, no problems there. However it is because of Men and Women striving to understand that we fields such as

Technology
Medicine
Engineering
Agriculture
psychology
and entertainment.

without understanding, we wouldn't know crap and would be depandent on people telling us what to think and do. A good example is that Western African countries have a sever lack of technology, engineering, and Medicine. Due to this the continent is ravaged by AIDS, Malaria, Ebola, Warlords, and Starvation. Not to mention the influx of Witch burnings/murders and sever human's rights violations.

The US, Europe, and East Africa became Power Houses because they embraced Understanding and modern techniques. There is a reason why Egypt is way past West Africa, and South Africa is the most Finacially stable.

Think about that.

Well let's not misunderstand each other here. I speak in the context of spirituality, and you are not. So in a way, we're both right, and in your context, I agree with you. We understand a lot and have made many advances in worldly wisdom and the understanding of it. Medical, technology, science and so forth...we can do a lot and understand a lot. But they're wrong about a lot of things and many things progress in our understanding through trial and error. But given enough time, we will eventually figure most everything out on this planet.

Genesis 11:6
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do./

But our reality is that our knowledge and understanding came to us after we fell in the Garden of Eden. We don't think right anymore. We were (are) spiritual beings who do not think with their flesh mind. Spiritual beings do not 'reason' per se, but have a different mode of "thinking" which is totally linked to God and dependent upon him for our decision making process. The Lords will be done. But we bit it off and so now are handicapped and have to use our brains. The long hard way which is very inefficient and usually wrong.

Edward, I understand what you mean, but I don't think you understand some of the consequences of what you are saying. Sure, you put your faith in God, no problems there. However it is because of Men and Women striving to understand that we fields such as

Technology
Medicine
Engineering
Agriculture
psychology
and entertainment.

without understanding, we wouldn't know crap and would be depandent on people telling us what to think and do. A good example is that Western African countries have a sever lack of technology, engineering, and Medicine. Due to this the continent is ravaged by AIDS, Malaria, Ebola, Warlords, and Starvation. Not to mention the influx of Witch burnings/murders and sever human's rights violations.

The US, Europe, and East Africa became Power Houses because they embraced Understanding and modern techniques. There is a reason why Egypt is way past West Africa, and South Africa is the most Finacially stable.

Think about that.

Well if you consider that I am speaking in a spiritual context that may shed a little light upon it because you're speaking in a non spiritual context. You're pretty much right in what you say, but only because it's from a worldly context. Man can do a lot and does understand a lot. Eventually not a lot would be beyond his reach to figure out.

Genesis 11:6
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do./(KJV)

But this came to us after the fall in Eden. We're spiritual beings and spiritual beings do not "think" with their brain. The flesh brain is feeble, inefficient, and not intended for us to use or depend on. In our reborn and renewed state of being, we are to lay the old man down and let him die, and to live for the spirit, cultivate the spirit, and learn to live as a spiritual being, with a spiritual connection to God and looking to Him for everything. We can't reason the truth of the bible, that's in the heart and spirit. We are not to lean upon our own understanding for anything.

Proverbs 3:3-7
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil./(KJV)

This isn't a casual suggestion, this is instructions on how to live. The moment we turn back to our old man and his "understanding" (ha!), we resurrect him and break the connection with the Lord. The best of our understanding is but foolishness to the Lord. If we want to understand this world and universe and how it works, for real. we look to God still. Medicine treats symptoms, not causes. We barely even know how blood works, we don't know where consciousness is in the brain. The best we can do is to observe and theorize, and we're usually wrong.

The best minds in physics told us that the universe was infinite. Quantam physics now shows us that that is absolutely wrong. These guys were 50 or 60 years after this so called great mind told us that we come from monkies. What a joke man. Close to 100 years later we know that the universe is NOT infinite. On the micro or macrocosm. Given enough time, we will figure out many things, but not fast enough to save ourselves from self annihilation. We'll kill ourselves first because we're so smart.

You're sort've right. We know some things...but on such a limited scale that to look to it for any sort of real guidance that will actually help us or to save us...is laughable. Knowing this, they want me to believe that I came from a cosmic mud puddle and evolved into the great being that I am?! Ha!

No way no how. If we don't look to the Lord spiritually and for all of our understanding...we will die. That's how smart we are. They know that their wrong, but if they can distract us from seeking the real truth, learning to live for the spirit, then they win, because we'll die looking for a bunch of answers in the wrong place. If we want even a modicum of a chance to be able to live and/or evolve into something real...we'll laugh at man and look to God, to the Spirit. We're spiritual beings on a human journey and have not ever been taught how we are to really try to live and what to believe.

That's why we must become as little children and learn as if we know absolutely nothing. To not accept any of the worlds wisdom or even to give it any credence as if they might be right. Time's too short to get distracted by wrong information, no matter how plausible they may be able to make it sound.

 

[Free]

But our reality is that our knowledge and understanding came to us after we fell in the Garden of Eden. We don't think right anymore. We were (are) spiritual beings who do not think with their flesh mind. Spiritual beings do not 'reason' per se, but have a different mode of "thinking" which is totally linked to God and dependent upon him for our decision making process. The Lords will be done. But we bit it off and so now are handicapped and have to use our brains. The long hard way which is very inefficient and usually wrong.

Do you have any biblical proof of any of the above?

Proverbs 3:3-7
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil./(KJV)

This isn't a casual suggestion, this is instructions on how to live. The moment we turn back to our old man and his "understanding" (ha!), we resurrect him and break the connection with the Lord. The best of our understanding is but foolishness to the Lord. If we want to understand this world and universe and how it works, for real. we look to God still.

That isn't what that passage is saying. You are creating a false dichotomy.

Medicine treats symptoms, not causes. We barely even know how blood works, we don't know where consciousness is in the brain. The best we can do is to observe and theorize, and we're usually wrong.

But we're not always wrong. In fact, we've been right about quite a lot and often where we've been wrong, we've made corrections as the answers have been found.

The best minds in physics told us that the universe was infinite. Quantam physics now shows us that that is absolutely wrong. These guys were 50 or 60 years after this so called great mind told us that we come from monkies. What a joke man. Close to 100 years later we know that the universe is NOT infinite. On the micro or macrocosm. Given enough time, we will figure out many things, but not fast enough to save ourselves from self annihilation. We'll kill ourselves first because we're so smart.

But that is how science works.

No way no how. If we don't look to the Lord spiritually and for all of our understanding...we will die. That's how smart we are. They know that they're wrong, but if they can distract us from seeking the real truth, learning to live for the spirit, then they win, because we'll die looking for a bunch of answers in the wrong place. If we want even a modicum of a chance to be able to live and/or evolve into something real...we'll laugh at man and look to God, to the Spirit. We're spiritual beings on a human journey and have not ever been taught how we are to really try to live and what to believe.

That's why we must become as little children and learn as if we know absolutely nothing. To not accept any of the worlds wisdom or even to give it any credence as if they might be right. Time's too short to get distracted by wrong information, no matter how plausible they may be able to make it sound.

Again, you seem to be creating a false dichotomy.

 

[Edward]

Do you have any biblical proof of any of the above?

not any that you would accept.


That isn't what that passage is saying. You are creating a false dichotomy.

Ok free. Whatever you say.


But we're not always wrong. In fact, we've been right about quite a lot and often where we've been wrong, we've made corrections as the answers have been found.

This is right.


But that is how science works.

Ok free.

Again, you seem to be creating a false dichotomy.
Yeah ok. Whatever you say brother.

 

[Drew]

The best minds in physics told us that the universe was infinite. Quantam physics now shows us that that is absolutely wrong. These guys were 50 or 60 years after this so called great mind told us that we come from monkies. What a joke man. Close to 100 years later we know that the universe is NOT infinite. On the micro or macrocosm. Given enough time, we will figure out many things, but not fast enough to save ourselves from self annihilation. We'll kill ourselves first because we're so smart.

I suggest that it is a strength, not a weakness that theories evolve and change - why is that a "joke"? It is in the nature of the case that figuring out the history of our universe is a step-by-step process.

 

[Drew]

Have the origins been OBSERVED? Did someone witness the "big bang" do we have it on film? "Pics or it didn't happen." as they say

We do have "pics". As one observes more distant objects in the universe, one is looking back in time (light takes longer to get here from more distant objects). So when we observe extremely distant objects, we are indeed seeing them as they existed billions of years ago.

 

[Drew]

I would like to pre-emptively address an argument that is sometimes set forth in opposition to evolution: the notion that the theory of evolution asserts that complex life arose entirely by "chance". This is not what the mainstream theory asserts. Yes, there is an element of chance - mutations occur basically by chance. However the "natural selection" process (part of the theory) is not a random process at all.

 

[Classik]

There are 6 meanings to term Evolution:
Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”
Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen
Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
Micro-evolution: variations form within the “kind”

For the sake of brevity, we will keep it to Organic Evolution and Cosmic Evolution.

Testable how? Can the results be repeated in a laboratory? Have the origins been OBSERVED? Did someone witness the "big bang" do we have it on film? "Pics or it didn't happen." as they say.


Life cannot come from non-life. protein stands and cells are components of living organisms, not the organism itself. What you said is basically like saying the spark plug to a car is the whole engine.


So you're expecting rain to fall UP one day, or maybe you're expecting when you throw a baseball it'll just STOP in mid-air? Just because nothing makes sense when studying quantum physics, doesn't mean that suddenly gravity just stops working. HA! Maybe your brain dis-integrates but the world doesn't suddenly stop spinning!!




Here's a pop quiz for you? DO YOU KNOW EVERYTHING?

Romans 1: 20-22 & 25
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, ...Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I think you have said my mind there.

I thought you said you've said bye to the thread. Believe me more attacks may come your way.

how many of us have really performed all these stuff in the laboratory? When someone reads something that makes sense to him/her...it automatically becomes a YES.


the devil is a good writer, he knows how to get people to accept his formular whose root is high up there on the tree. climb up, the more you look the less you see.

i have practised what I have practised - proven what I have proven - rejected what I have rejected (cos some are 'weirder' than folktale).

HE can speak to us through science. Also the man beneath can speak to some through science.

we are the soccer coaches - we feature players we want. the ball will always be kicked about.

 

[Edward]

I suggest that it is a strength, not a weakness that theories evolve and change - why is that a "joke"? It is in the nature of the case that figuring out the history of our universe is a step-by-step process.

Oh, because I've studied science and I've studied spirituality and this is my overall impression. We may know some things but it isn't very much at all compared to the truth of the Lord.

 

[Edward]

 

[twinc]

It's not that simple. The Bible consists of many different kinds of books. Some are reports (like the gospels), while others are works of poetry like the Psalms or the Song of Solomon. Even Jesus uses parables - metaphors that aren't literally true - to make His points. So since not all of the Bible is to be taken literally I wonder if considering the creation story a metaphor would make the entire Bible a lie.

a lot of assumptions and even pontificating since the Bible is totally inerrant in all its parts and is to be taken literally unless reason or necessity dictate otherwise - twinc

 

[twinc]

btw - believe it or not but just as it rains up here it rains down in Australia or does it rain up in Australia and rain down here or does it rain down everywhere and btw believe it or not but the earth is neither a proper circle or a proper sphere and the earth was indeed flat before the Flood and does not revolve or rotate and since one of the greatest, if not the greatest achievement of science was the 'dematerialism' of matter - is humpty dumpty science trying to put it together again - even like the big bang as now you see me now you don't - daft I call it - we live in a mental/spiritual world with an illusion of materiality imho - twinc

 

[Barbarian]

Even many creationists now realize that Polonium halos are not evidence for a recent creation. The most devastating problem is that the granites from which the halos are taken, are intrusive. That is, they are intruding into older sedimentary rock. This is quite common for igneous rock which is melted and moves into faults in other rock.

So it's impossible for the granites to be primordial rock, and so Snelling's story collapses on that error alone.

 

[Drew]

a lot of assumptions and even pontificating since the Bible is totally inerrant in all its parts and is to be taken literally unless reason or necessity dictate otherwise - twinc

What would convince you that a particular text is to be taken as non-literal. Scripture speaks of the trees clapping their hands? Do you take that literally? Why not (please be as specific as you can)?

On precisely what basis - Biblical or otherwise - do you arrive at the assertion that "the Bible......is to be taken literally unless reason or necessity dictate otherwise".

 

[twinc]

Even many creationists now realize that Polonium halos are not evidence for a recent creation. The most devastating problem is that the granites from which the halos are taken, are intrusive. That is, they are intruding into older sedimentary rock. This is quite common for igneous rock which is melted and moves into faults in other rock.

So it's impossible for the granites to be primordial rock, and so Snelling's story collapses on that error alone.

according to you but not according to Sarfati in his 'Refuting Compromise' or general consensus as per 'Radiohalos' via google - or even via recent RATE research team - twinc

 

[Barbarian]

according to you but not according to Sarfati in his 'Refuting Compromise' or general consensus as per 'Radiohalos' via google - or even via recent RATE research team - twinc

I've discussed this online with Jon Sarfati, and the conversation ended with him in a name-calling snit. He knows it's a lost cause with anyone who understands the least bit of geology. You cannot have primordial rocks intruding into older ones. These granite dikes and sills from which Snelling got his halos are younger than the sedimentary rock into which they have flowed.

 

[twinc]

I've discussed this online with Jon Sarfati, and the conversation ended with him in a name-calling snit. He knows it's a lost cause with anyone who understands the least bit of geology. You cannot have primordial rocks intruding into older ones. These granite dikes and sills from which Snelling got his halos are younger than the sedimentary rock into which they have flowed.

sedimentary rocks ? - twinc