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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution stopped after billions of years.

Bacteria in the Two Kingdom System is classified as a Plant.

Reading Genesis literally the account clearly specifies only Plants and Animals.

Hence the Bible writers were using the option of a two Kingdom Classification System:


That's not scientific, however.

You're reliying on a system that hasn't been used in 300 years. With genome sequencing, DNA, phylegony ect., the science has progressed way beyond a 2 kingdom classification system.

There is a reason we don't use that system in the 21st century. We have a a much better way to classify life. And with these modern tools at our disposal, we can identify that plants and bacteria are not the same thing.

If you want to think that there is a 2 kindom system in the bible, I think you are really are bordering on twisting scripture to meet your personal beliefs. That's fine. Nothing I haven't seen hundreds of other Christians do.

But to claim that this matches what "science says," well, that's simply wrong.
 
Acanthostega, Barbarian's favourite amphibian.

http://www.creationism.ws/acanthostega.htm
Acanthostega (CLASS: Amphibian, ORDER: Ichthyostegalia)
acanthostega_501c.jpg

Acanthostega
(ancient extinct fish-like amphibian)

Barbarian has yet to learn some taxonomy. Note the classification above:


Class: Amphibian.


The class amphibian positively identifies this creature as NOT a fish of any sort.


Now for some classic question-begging:



The problem of gas exchange or respiration in the atmosphere was solved by the evolution of lungs. Lungs possess vascularized internal folds and pouches that must remain moist.
http://petrifiedwoodmuseum.org/SOAmphibia.htm


See? It evolved - therefore its lungs must have evolved!


Barbarian, I apologise to you. You are not unique.

Your evolutionary compatriots are just as bad at assuming the case.


But the questions still exist and will not go away. Where did those lungs come from? They don't come from thin air as a rule - well, according to evolution, they do.

Lungfishes do have lungs - but where did they come from? Clearly they are a special creation, because the fish without the lungs couldn't have figured out how to make a lung or lungs.

As one author (Ann Kemp) says:
http://www.annekempslungfish.com/what_is_a_lungfish.html

Lungfish are not primitive. They are well adapted to their natural environment, and are an important part of our biodiversity.

They can walk underwater, but then so can many others:

This ability is not confined to lungfish. Many fish can do it, even fish that nobody would describe as a close relation of land animals, such as the bichir, and skates and rays.

DNA analyses don't help either!

Surprisingly, evidence derived from DNA analyses does not provide a final answer to the question of the relationship of lungfish to land animals. The closest lower vertebrate group to the land animals could be the coelacanth, bony fish or lungfish.


There is a vast difference between the lungfish lung, and the typical lung (say, of a mammal):

A lung in a mammal is made up of billions of tiny cavities containing air, known as alveoli.

In lungfish, the lung has large air sacs, and no minute alveoli. It works more like the swim bladder of a bony fish than a lung for breathing air. (Fig 2-04)

So, to summarise that:

1They are not primitive, so can't be regarded as ancestors of anything besides lungfish

2 They can 'walk', but so can many many other fish.

3 The lung structure has no alveoli, and so does not bear any relationship to any other vertebrate lungs and cannot be regarded as ancestors of any other group.

End of that line of thought.
 
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Now the things stated in Genesis are eiother true facts now clearly available thru science or the things stated in Genesis are not true, not facts.

An intellectually honest Bible reader ought expect that what is stated in the Bible as a fact would be stated by Science too.


Only if they take the bible as strictly literal, which is why we see so many YEC and GAP creationists at war with science becasue they don't want to accept what the modern scientific theories actually conclude.

Of course, these people turn out to not be intellectually honest at all and distort science for the sole purpose of supporting the bible. Which is why we have so many creationist sites that do nothing but mislead the public, because they insist on the same thing that you do: that science and the bible must line up exactly or the science is wrong.
 
There are two points abut the Genesis record that seem to have been missed.

1 The record is a grossly abbreviated SUMMARY of what happened, and to accuse it of inaccuracy because it omits many many things, is just a little silly.

2 If God had written 'cyanobacteria' in the record, guess how many people would have understood what He was talking about?

Just observing.

Barbarian, I note that you have re-issued your challenge for the production of 2 groups for which you are going to find intermediates.

Account then, for the origin of the bats. And don't talk to us about us being able to echolocate. You know that comparison is a nonsense, and if you'd like to know why, I can let you know.

And in any case, we can't fly, and are mostly not blind either.
 
Of course, these people turn out to not be intellectually honest at all and distort science for the sole purpose of supporting the bible. Which is why we have so many creationist sites that do nothing but mislead the public, because they insist on the same thing that you do: that science and the bible must line up exactly or the science is wrong.

You might like to visit my site and enter the correspondence there.

http://belligerentdesign-asyncritus.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/ervs-function-discovered.html

The material is entirely factual, but you may not like the interpretations I put up.
 
There are no gill slits in human embryos, as I pointed out some while ago. They are 'folds', having nothing to do with gills.


Excuse me. You are right. They are not gills. The 5th "pharangeal arches" which are structures found in both fish and humans during embryonic development are only temporary structures in humans and do not develop into gills as they do with fish.

Beyond making that distinction, however, I really don't see your point.
 
You are forgiven.

For what? 'to knot' is not English in the context. I accept your apology for your mistake.

In your post, you defined a spider that you want barbarian to find. You created a proto Bell Spider that you would accept as evidence.

Did you not give Barbarian criteria that you would accept as a proto Bell Spider?
I described a bell spider and its behaviour. I asked Barbarian how the behaviour originated, and how it entered the genome.

I didn't think that the questions are too difficult to comprehend, but clearly, I was wrong. If you'd like me to elucidate further, I can.

Accept for this entire classification of Arachnids and other spiders.
Well, if a biologist is calling a spider fossil a spider fossil, I would expect the fossil to be a fossil of a spider.
So would I.

But since this is probably the earliest fossil spider known, then there is no evidence of them evolving from anything. Do you agree?

You claim there are no substantial differences between the fossil and modern spiders. The article you linked us to says quite the opposite. Sorry, I actually click on the source links. :)
Produce the evidence you have unearthed, other than the fact that you may know how to click on links.

My assumption is based on my understanding of neuro Science and development.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

You are aware that brain chemistry is the functioning of the brain right? Instincts are functions of our brain. Brain chemistry is the explanation of the functions.

So you agree with me and disagree with me at the same time?
No. You have it the wrong way round. Instinctive instructions are implemented by the brain chemistry, not the other way round. To keep it simple, instincts are like the software programs which instruct the robot arms about what they should do or not.

I don't think you understand what an instinct is. Instincts can't exist without a brain to tell the spider what to do.
Instincts are immaterial, and cannot evolve. They are not located in any part of the brain they have yet discovered. In my opinion they are divinely implanted and supported.

You never asked me this question. I personally don't know how instincts pass on from one generation to another. I plan to read some studies on the subject matter though, so I can understand what the people studying this phenomenon have found out.
Good.

What would you accept as evidence of evolution?
I won't accept anything as evidence of evolution. It simply cannot happen in view of the instinct question.

Can you answer me what level of biology education you have so I can then asses how to answer your question?
I wouldn't worry too much. On your showing to date, I don't think your level is unreachable by me, so give it your best shot.
 
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If God had written 'cyanobacteria' in the record, guess how many people would have understood what He was talking about?


Are you saying that hard to believe things did not make it into the bible, because they wouldn't be believed?


Then how did the talking snake make it in?

How many people understand Revelation or Ezekiel's wheels? They made it in.


I don't believe that what you are saying holds up to scrutiny when we consider what's actually in the bible.
 
Acanthostega, Barbarian's favourite amphibian.

(Creationists claim it's an amphibian)
http://www.creationism.ws/acanthostega.htm
Acanthostega (CLASS: Amphibian, ORDER: Ichthyostegalia)


Well, that's convincing.

In fact, amphibians have external gills when they have them at all. No amphibian has a lateral line system, nor do they have internal gills. Nor do they have a fishlike tail fin.

So what does that make Acanthostega? A transitional. By definition. It's a fish with a few amphibian traits. But more fish traits than amphibian ones.

The problem of gas exchange or respiration in the atmosphere was solved by the evolution of lungs. Lungs possess vascularized internal folds and pouches that must remain moist.
http://petrifiedwoodmuseum.org/SOAmphibia.htm

See? It evolved

So the evidence indicates. As you know, fish today gulp air and absorb oxygen in the throat. And lungs develop as out pouchings of the throat. So there you have it.

But the questions still exist and will not go away. Where did those lungs come from? They don't come from thin air as a rule - well, according to evolution, they do.

Surprise.

Lungfishes do have lungs - but where did they come from? Clearly they are a special creation, because the fish without the lungs couldn't have figured out how to make a lung or lungs.

See above. They just got to the point in some lungfish where they can do all the work of respiration.

Lungfish are not primitive. They are well adapted to their natural environment, and are an important part of our biodiversity.

They have, after all, a very long evolutionary history. As you learned, they are very different from the first lungfish.

They can walk underwater, but then so can many others:

It's a common adaptation. But of course, they other fish don't have the exernal nares, the obligate use of lungs, and the DNA showing them to be more closely related to tetrapods than to ray-finned fish.

This ability is not confined to lungfish. Many fish can do it, even fish that nobody would describe as a close relation of land animals, such as the bichir, and skates and rays.

DNA analyses don't help either!

Surprisingly, evidence derived from DNA analyses does not provide a final answer to the question of the relationship of lungfish to land animals. The closest lower vertebrate group to the land animals could be the coelacanth, bony fish or lungfish.

As you learned earlier, DNA analysis shows that the tetrapods, lungfish, and lobed-finned fishes are all more closely related to each other than they are to the bony fishes (ray-finned fishes). Would you like me to show you, again?

There is a vast difference between the lungfish lung, and the typical lung (say, of a mammal):

You mean to say that lungs have evolved since animals came ashore? And this surprises you?

In lungfish, the lung has large air sacs, and no minute alveoli. It works more like the swim bladder of a bony fish than a lung for breathing air. (Fig 2-04)

Makes sense that the swim bladder is like a lungfish lung. It evolved from such lungs. But as you learned, some lungfish will drown if they can't get to the surface to breathe. They now depend on their lungs to get enough oxygen and their gills no longer do the job. The lungs don't work at all like a swim bladder, do they now?

You've been, as usual, led down the path by people who knew no more than you.

End of that line of thought.

Yep.
 
To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.
Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound.
(Darwin 1872, 143-144)

This long quotation from Darwin does nothing to touch the real problem which nether you nor he recognise.

The problem does not lie in the complexity or otherwise of the organ. It lies in the fact the the organism is able to see at all.

As we all know, or should, anyway, the eye does not do the seeing. It receives light and the messages transmitted to the central processing unit in the organism, wherever that might be, is interpreted there.

How did that unit arise, is the problem which neither you, Darwin nor anybody else has ever been able to account for.

How did the ability to interpret that information arise?

Electronic pulses are transmitted by wire or through the air, and are first received, then decoded, then changed into a picture which is then interpreted by ourselves.

But you note the number of stages which must be passed through. Not one of them is simple.

If an amoebe is going to respond negatively to let's say, a light stimulus, then:

It must have

1 a receptor organ

2 a transmitting organ which gets the message to

3 a central processing unit which processes the data

4 and interprets it, then

5 an executive unit of some kind which generates the action the organism will take.

The higher up the scale we go, the more complex the organs involved become. Darwin can argue till the cows come home about the evolution of the receptor organ(s), but has completely fsiled to address the real question of how did vision itself evolve, and from what?

How say you?
 
I didn't think that the questions are too difficult to comprehend, but clearly, I was wrong. If you'd like me to elucidate further, I can.
No, I'm not interested in condescending rhetoric.

But since this is probably the earliest fossil spider known, then there is no evidence of them evolving from anything. Do you agree?
Nope, I don't agree. There is this pescky thing called genetics that shows how arachnids fit in phylogenetic. So there is some evidence there.

Produce the evidence you have unearthed, other than the fact that you may know how to click on links.
What specifically do you want. How about this, I'll produce evidence if you tell me your level of biology education. If you are honest, this should not be a problem.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
Exactly. Most of your questions on instinct can be answered by studying nuero science.

No. You have it the wrong way round. Instinctive instructions are implemented by the brain chemistry, not the other way round. To keep it simple, instincts are like the software programs which instruct the robot arms about what they should do or not.
Wow, So you aren't aware of the field of study this is done in and don't understand instincts. Ok, I'll use your example of Instincs being software, the code instincts are made from is Brain Chemistry. Go read up on this topic please.

Instincts are immaterial, and cannot evolve. They are not located in any part of the brain they have yet discovered. In my opinion they are divinely implanted and supported.
You should definitely look into neurological science. What you just said about scientists not knowing where instincs comes from is false. Your own ignorance is not evidence.

I won't accept anything as evidence of evolution. It simply cannot happen in view of the instinct question.
Ah, then at least I know I'm dealing with someone who willfully ignorant and willing to misconstrue information because it dosen't fit their personal opinion, and isn't interested in looking into the field of study that could probably answer your questions. I see no point in addressing any of your arguments after this.

I wouldn't worry too much. On your showing to date, I don't think your level is unreachable by me, so give it your best shot.
I'll take this dodge as someone who hasn't seriously studied any form of biology. Like I said earlier. If you are just going to be condescending, and you have already admitted that you will not accept any evidence, I see no reason in casting anymore pearls before swine.
 
There are two points abut the Genesis record that seem to have been missed.

1 The record is a grossly abbreviated SUMMARY of what happened, and to accuse it of inaccuracy because it omits many many things, is just a little silly.

So if He doesn't include protons and evolution, it's understandable. That's not what the book is for.

There are many things that are true that aren't in Genesis.

Barbarian, I note that you have re-issued your challenge for the production of 2 groups for which you are going to find intermediates.

Yep. So far, no one's come up with two of them for me to check. I notice you choked again.

Account then, for the origin of the bats.

You're missing one group. Get that, let me know when you're ready.

And in any case, we can't fly, and are mostly not blind either.

Bats aren't "mostly blind." Remember when I suggested that you learn something about the issue before telling us about it?

The saying “blind as a batâ€, simply isn’t correct. The truth is that all 1,100 bat species can see and often their vision is pretty good, although not as excellent as many other night-hunting animals.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/02/bats-are-not-blind/

Find the group you think has been claimed to be a sister taxon with bats, and we can see how you do with the challenge. You'd be the first YEer to actually step up and take it, if you do.

But I'm not holding my breath.
 
Instincts are immaterial, and cannot evolve.

You described phototropism in plants to be instinctive. And all that takes is for auxins to evolve so that they are more easily degraded by sunlight. Simple.

They are not located in any part of the brain they have yet discovered.

Wrong. Infants instinctively reach out, grasp, and cry when they feel as though they are about to fall. This has an obvious benefit, and it has been found to originate in the pons and medulla.

In my opinion they are divinely implanted and supported.

As all things are. The problem for you, is you don't approve of the way He did it.
 
What YE creationists like to quote from Darwin:
To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.

What YE creationists remove from that quote, to make it appear that Darwin thought eyes could not evolve:
Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound.
(Darwin 1872, 143-144)
This long quotation from Darwin does nothing to touch the real problem which nether you nor he recognise.

It does, however, demonstrate the dishonesty of many YE creationists.

The problem does not lie in the complexity or otherwise of the organ. It lies in the fact the the organism is able to see at all.

So it's an imaginary problem, then? After all, you can sense light with nothing more than your bare skin. No brain required. (radiation can be sensed and acted upon by the spinal cord)

As we all know, or should, anyway, the eye does not do the seeing. It receives light and the messages transmitted to the central processing unit in the organism, wherever that might be, is interpreted there.

For some highly evolved eyes, yes. But there are much simpler forms, for which no optic tectum is required at all. Indeed, organisms without brains can detect light and act on that information.

How did that unit arise, is the problem which neither you, Darwin nor anybody else has ever been able to account for.

Comparative neurology of the optic tectum in ray-finned fishes: patterns of lamination formed by retinotectal projections.
C S Von Bartheld, D L Meyer in Brain Research (1987)


Surprise.

How did the ability to interpret that information arise?

In plants, for example, it was the differential degradation of auxins by sunlight on the light and dark sides of the plant.

Electronic pulses are transmitted by wire or through the air, and are first received, then decoded, then changed into a picture which is then interpreted by ourselves.

What about organisms without brains that do it? I don't think you've given this adequate thought.

But you note the number of stages which must be passed through. Not one of them is simple.

Well, let's take a look...

If an amoebe is going to respond negatively to let's say, a light stimulus,

They do:
Amoeba has no special sense organs. Changes in the outside world are detected by all parts of the living material. In general, this sensitivity ensures favorable surroundings. For instance, amoeba quickly moves away from very bright light or strongly acidic or alkaline water.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/A/amoeba.html

then:
It must have
1 a receptor organ

Nope. No organs.

a transmitting organ which gets the message to

3 a central processing unit which processes the data

4 and interprets it, then

5 an executive unit of some kind which generates the action the organism will take.

Nope. Just one cell. Surprise.

The higher up the scale we go, the more complex the organs involved become. Darwin can argue till the cows come home about the evolution of the receptor organ(s), but has completely fsiled to address the real question of how did vision itself evolve, and from what?

Starting with a mere darkened patch (absorbs more energy and therefore is more sensitive than other parts of the organism), the organism can detect light and detect from which side the light appears.

Useful information.

If the patch is slightly depressed, it increases the acuity of the "eye", because it becomes better able to identify from where the light is coming. Again, a useful thing.

If it becomes more depressed, and the opening narrows, an image can be formed. This is the state of the infrared "eyes" in snakes, which in some of them, can actually be observed to form an image in the optic tectum. Very useful information. Permits a form of night vision. ("small" + "warm" + "moving" = meal)

A clear covered pit protects the sensitive spot, and makes it more durable. If the cover thickens, it also permits focusing for an image.

And so on. Very simple changes, if done one at a time. These stages actually exist in the living members of some phyla. Want to see?

How say you?

Piece of cake. But the point, of course, was the blatant dishonesty of those who edited Darwin's statement to make it appear he though something he did not.

I don't think that was you. I think you were completely surprised to learn the truth. But you should be more cautious about believing those guys again, um?
 
Regarding the controversy as to whether Acanthostega is a fish or an amphibian:

The Definition of the Taxon Tetrapoda
Jennifer A. Clack

There is currently a debate concerning the definition of the taxon Tetrapoda, which is part of a wider debate dealing with the definiton of phylogenetic groups. Many papers over recent years (eg. Gauthier et al., 1989, Rowe, 1988, Rowe et al., 1992, de Queiroz et al., 1992) have suggested that a phylogenetic, or node-based, definition, is more rigorous than one which employs a "key-character", with both a "crown-group" definition (Altangerel et al., 1993, Norell and Novacek, 1992, Norell et al., 1993, Lebedev and Coates 1995) and a "total-group" definition (Patterson, 1993, Coates, 1996) having its adherents. In the case of the Tetrapoda, the crown-group would encompass the clade containing all the modern representatives, namely the Amphibia and the Amniota, plus any fossil taxa falling above the node in the cladogram representing their nearest common ancestor. In that case, Tetrapoda would exclude any fossil taxon which falls outside this grouping, independent of the possession of any key character such as limbs with digits. It has been stressed elsewhere (Clack and Coates, 1995) that as a key character, "limbs with digits" is unsatisfactory since it can be broken down into many separate characters. The "total-group" definition would include not only all members of the crown group but also its complete stem-lineage back to a node defined by the nearest common ancestor of the crown group and its closest living sister-group (in the case of tetrapods, that would be either lungfishes or coelacanths).

There are some major practical problems with node-based definitions. First, almost inevitably, by the "crown-group" definition, many fossil taxa which indisputably have limbs with digits are excluded. Thus Acanthostega and Ichthyostega would not belong within the Tetrapoda, since they are stem tetrapod plesions outside the crown group. A strict application of the crown-group method not only forbids the use of the term "Tetrapoda" for these animals, but disqualifies them as "tetrapods". Conversely, by the "total-group" definition Tetrapoda would include many animals which clearly do not have limbs with digits, not only "fish" such as Eusthenopteron and Panderichthys but the rest of the osteolepiform lineage.

Both node-based definitions are equally rigorous, defensible and valid phylogenetic definitions of the group Tetrapoda but in both cases, the result is counterintuitive in respect of some animals. The problem arises not with node-based definitions per se, but with the logical difficulty of applying to a node-defined group a name whose origins are etymologically founded upon an innovative "key-character" as so many higher taxonomic group names are. Lee and Spencer (1997) have pointed out other problems concerned with stability of node-based groupings.

Either way in this case, the origin of limbs and the origin of terrestriality are distanced from the origin of tetrapods, which may be an advantage in that it separates our perceptions of these three independent evolutionary strands.

Jennifer Clack University Museum of Zoology, Cambridge, UK.

Clack, as you might know, was the person who found and described Acantostega.
 
Are you saying that hard to believe things did not make it into the bible, because they wouldn't be believed?


Then how did the talking snake make it in?

How many people understand Revelation or Ezekiel's wheels? They made it in.


I don't believe that what you are saying holds up to scrutiny when we consider what's actually in the bible.

Adam

I just said that we have a short summary of what did happen. If you were asked to summarise the second world war in two and a half pages of text, how much do you think you'd have to leave out?

I also said that 'cyanobacteria' would be a meaningless term then, since it was only invented recently. I don't suppose you know what 'eth means?
 
Regarding the controversy as to whether Acanthostega is a fish or an amphibian:

The Definition of the Taxon Tetrapoda[...]

Either way in this case, the origin of limbs and the origin of terrestriality are distanced from the origin of tetrapods, which may be an advantage in that it separates our perceptions of these three independent evolutionary strands.

Jennifer Clack University Museum of Zoology, Cambridge, UK.

Clack, as you might know, was the person who found and described Acantostega.
So we're back to the old 'a species is what a competent taxonomist calls a species' definition. Looking at that lot, I wouldn't know who was competent or not.

And how do you know that all the above isn't going down the tubes sooner or later?

I didn't know she described Acanthostega. I do know she described Tiktaalik!:lol

But all that doesn't solve your problem.

Whatever they finally decide, it's definitely not a fish, it's a tetrapod. So...

Where did the amphibian-type lungs come from if it was an amphibian, and why would amphibian-type lungs arise in a fish? Especially as the adult frog cannot breathe underwater using lungs.

The hardest breathing problem in the animal world was so1ved by the remote ancestors of our frogs. This was almost 300 million years ago when these brave creatures left the ancient seas for life on the land. Until this time they had taken their oxygen only from the water.
http://www.youaskandy.com/questions...13909-how-does-a-frog-breathe-underwater.html

Har-de-har!

And if it 'evolved' weight-bearing legs of one sort or another, which are not needed in water, what would it do with them when they first appeared? Remember, legs were a new invention at the time, requiring complex instincts to move them which did not exist before!

So where did the instincts come from?
 
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Excuse me. You are right. They are not gills. The 5th "pharangeal arches" which are structures found in both fish and humans during embryonic development are only temporary structures in humans and do not develop into gills as they do with fish.

Beyond making that distinction, however, I really don't see your point.

Well you should.

It is perfectly clear that the developmental stages of the human embryo have nothing to do with any alleged 'evolutionary history'.
 
(Creationists claim it's an amphibian)
http://www.creationism.ws/acanthostega.htm
Acanthostega (CLASS: Amphibian, ORDER: Ichthyostegalia)


Well, that's convincing.

In fact, amphibians have external gills when they have them at all. No amphibian has a lateral line system, nor do they have internal gills. Nor do they have a fishlike tail fin.

Amphibians do have internal gills, as tadpoles do. You should know that by now. Tadpoles also have tails.

So what does that make Acanthostega? A transitional. By definition. It's a fish with a few amphibian traits. But more fish traits than amphibian ones.
And therefore, it evolved from a fish? If so, which?

But it's the lungs that are bothering you. Any ideas or nice long quotes from some paper or the other?

So the evidence indicates. As you know, fish today gulp air and absorb oxygen in the throat. And lungs develop as out pouchings of the throat. So there you have it.
No, we don't.

Gulping and absorbing air in the throat can't - hocus pocus SHAZZAM and ABRACADABRA - produce the lungs of amphibians and higher animals.

Not unless a creative act took place. Which it did - not this foolish evolutionary guesswork.

See above. They just got to the point in some lungfish where they can do all the work of respiration.
But the lungfish is an evolutionary dead end. It's going nowhere. It's come from nowhere too. So we won't discuss them as ancestors of the amphibians etc.since you have no fossil, DNA or other evidence to establish this.

They have, after all, a very long evolutionary history. As you learned, they are very different from the first lungfish.
Look, a lungfish is a lungfish is a lungfish. The taxonomists say so. The fossils are clearly only various species of lungfish, and as you should know by now, some species in the same genus can be widely different from one another. No evolution there.

It's a common adaptation. But of course, they other fish don't have the exernal nares, the obligate use of lungs, and the DNA showing them to be more closely related to tetrapods than to ray-finned fish.
Look Barbarian, if an animal has external nares, it is not a fish which has olfactory pits. So what is it doing with lungs? Amphibian-type lungs at that?

If it once was a fish, where did these lungs come from while it was still living and breathing with gills perfectly well?

Ann Kemps disagreed with you.Go argue with her.

This ability is not confined to lungfish. Many fish can do it, even fish that nobody would describe as a close relation of land animals, such as the bichir, and skates and rays.

As you learned earlier, DNA analysis shows that the tetrapods, lungfish, and lobed-finned fishes are all more closely related to each other than they are to the bony fishes (ray-finned fishes). Would you like me to show you, again?
As I said, go argue with Kemps.

You mean to say that lungs have evolved since animals came ashore? And this surprises you?
Where did you get this from?

Lungs had to evolve BEFORE ANIMALS CAME ASHORE. Or they'd die.

You need an explanation of that nasty fact. How land-animal type lungs could have evolved from gills.

Makes sense that the swim bladder is like a lungfish lung. It evolved from such lungs. But as you learned, some lungfish will drown if they can't get to the surface to breathe. They now depend on their lungs to get enough oxygen and their gills no longer do the job. The lungs don't work at all like a swim bladder, do they now?
They don't work like land-animal-type lungs as you've been shown several times now, so don't mention this again. I take it you have heard of alveoli?

You've been, as usual, led down the path by people who knew no more than you.
You would do well to remember that the organ of thought is the brain, not the oesophagus.
 
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