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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution stopped after billions of years.

Barbarian admits:
I never thought I'd hear a Christian say something like that.

Again, a godless belief system is godless any way you wish to spin it

But you don't have to endorse it. If you conflate atheism with agnosticism, you've joined up with atheism.

Barbarian observes:
You seem to be taking your instruction from atheists a lot. And I notice that he doesn't offer any evidence...

I am simply pointing out the truth

It's that evidence thing, again. As you see, Glenn Morton shows that creationism makes atheists. But Provine doesn't. And that makes all the difference.

Your dependence on atheists makes me wonder if you really are a Poe, after all.
And denial notwithstanding, Christianity seems to scare you.
 
If you conflate atheism with agnosticism, you've joined up with atheism.
Your logic is getting fuzzy. Agnostic, atheism - same ‘family resemblance’ words.

You seem to be taking your instruction from atheists a lot.
Ditto above - your logic is a bit fuzzy. It is you who tries to fit Darwinism with theism - remember, classical Darwinism allows no room for supernatural forces (God).

Christianity seems to scare you.
You are not there yet - your brand of Christianity disappoints me. Theistic Darwinism (an oxymoron) is the failed attempt to compromise atheism with theism - it can't be done.
The Darwinian revolution was not merely the replacement of one scientific theory by another, as had been the scientific revolutions in the physical sciences, but rather the replacement of a world view, in which the supernatural was accepted as a normal and relevant explanatory principle, by a new world view in which there was no room for supernatural forces. ~ Ernst Mayr
How does that work for you?
 
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Barbarian observes:
If you conflate atheism with agnosticism, you've joined up with atheism.

Your logic is getting fuzzy. Agnostic, atheism - same ‘family resemblance’ words.

That goes beyond "fuzzy." You're trying to redefine words to suit the moment.

(Barbarian notes Zeke relies on atheists for ideas)
You seem to be taking your instruction from atheists a lot.

It is you who tries to fit Darwinism with theism

If you don't like that, you'll have to take it up with Him. I'm just observing the way He did it.

remember, classical Darwinism allows no room for supernatural forces (God).

That seems unrealistic, considering that Darwin supposed God created the first living things.

Barbarian observes:
Christianity seems to scare you.

You are not there yet

Never will be. A Christian has nothing to fear from the truth.

(Another atheist endorsement)

How does that work for you?

It seems to suit you fine, but I like this better:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Let God be God, Zeke. Accept His creation, and you'll be better off.
 
If you conflate atheism with agnosticism, you've joined up with atheism.
Again, Darwin went to his grave a godless man regardless of the semantics game and you can keep digging but Darwin was what he was – an agnostic atheist.
While, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other: that they are combined is an unquestionable fact. ~ Charles Darwin

That seems unrealistic, considering that Darwin supposed God created the first living things.

Darwin was a godless man and Darwinism is atheism. You really need to move forward.

A Christian has nothing to fear from the truth.
And Darwinism is not the truth. You have bought into a fairy-tale but you already know that.
 
Before I start my travel for the week I will repost my questions incase they were not seen at the bottom of the last page. Just need a simply answer to them. Either no have not found that information yet or yes with an explanation.

1) Can you show empirical evidence and example in nature of information being added to a genome?

To answer this question please provide an example, not a math equation. Shannon equation should not be used to provide an example of nature. Why?

We conclude that information-theoretic calculations of the present level of sophistication do not provide any useful insights into molecular biological sequences.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519305800542
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/itbwi/information-fundamental-entity
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/itbwi/statistical-view-of-information

The technical definition of “information†was introduced by the American engineer Claude Shannon in 1948. An employee of the Bell Telephone Company, Shannon was concerned to measure information as an economic commodity.

How did Dawkins answer.

I am one of those associated with a limited form of yes answer. My colleague Stephen Jay Gould tends towards a no answer.
http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/articles/the-information-challenge/

Would like an example of nature that has empirical evidence or a no can't answer.

2) The question was to provide links to certain animals.
When my challenge to find even one case of two major groups missing a transitional wasn't answered, that pretty much closed out the issue.

Can you show the links for sharks, bats, seal's, sea lions, back to their common ancestors? The list could go on but we will start there.

3) And whatever novel feature you want to use to show empirical evidence of it's evolution from a single cell organism will work. But I would like to see you explain the evolution of the sexual reproduction system. Simultaneously in your ideal of the first life form with them.

That's a testable claim. Pick some feature, and we'll see. There are things out there that we don't know yet, so you might get lucky. Let's see what you choose.

Please show empirical evidence, no assumptions, for the questions posted.
 
Given your history here, it's important to give a checkable source for any "quotes" offered.

(Accusation that Darwinism is atheistic)

Barbarian chuckles:
That seems unrealistic, considering that Darwin supposed God created the first living things.

Darwin was a godless man and Darwinism is atheism.

I realize that you want us to believe it, but so far, Darwin's own words (note the checkable source) show you are wrong.

You really need to move forward.

Barbarian observes:
A Christian has nothing to fear from the truth.

And Darwinism is not the truth. You have bought into a fairy-tale but you already know that.

Denial isn't going to help you.
 
1) Can you show empirical evidence and example in nature of information being added to a genome?

Yes. You were shown this several times. Would you like a link to it. I even calculated the information for you.

To answer this question please provide an example, not a math equation.

That's how information is determined. How else would you do it.

Shannon equation should not be used to provide an example of nature.

It's always used to measure information in nature.


Shannon's crucial concept was that the spheres must not intersect in a communications system, and from this he built the channel capacity formula and theorem. But, at its root, the concept that the spheres must be separated is a biological criterion that does not apply to physical systems in general. Although it is well known that Shannon's uncertainty measure is similar to the entropy function, the channel capacity and its theorem are rarely, if ever, mentioned in thermodynamics or physics, perhaps because these aspects of information theory are about biology, so no direct application could be found in those fields. .
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22519305800542

Information Theory and Population Genetics
Reginald D. Smith
Populations and Evolution (q-bio.PE); Information Theory (cs.IT)
Cornell University Library
The key findings of classical population genetics are derived using a framework based on information theory using the entropies of the allele frequency distribution as a basis. The common results for drift, mutation, selection, and gene flow will be rewritten both in terms of information theoretic measurements and used to draw the classic conclusions for balance conditions and common features of one locus dynamics. Linkage disequilibrium will also be discussed including the relationship between mutual information and r^2 and a simple model of hitchhiking.



Would like an example of nature that has empirical evidence or a no can't answer.

Sure. Let's take that example of a new lipoprotein that prevents hardening of the arteries in humans. It was a case of a duplicate gene (the old lipoprotein is still being made in these people), so the original information of the populuation was X (depending on the number of alleles) where X was the negative sum of the frequency each allele, times the log of the frequency of that allele. After the mutation, the information would be X+ negative sum of the product of the frequency of the new allele times the log of the frequency of that allele. Since the log of a number less than one is a negative number, this would mean that X is smaller than X+ (information of new allele).

I can't really make it any simpler than that. Sorry.

2. Barbarian observes
When my challenge to find even one case of two major groups missing a transitional wasn't answered, that pretty much closed out the issue.

(declines again to meet the challenge)

Not surprising. You already know how that will turn out, um?

Can you show the links for sharks, bats, seal's, sea lions, back to their common ancestors? The list could go on but we will start there.

The last common ancestor for those would be the first craniates, a subphylum of chordates. There's a living transitional for that, the hagfish. That's pretty easy. If you narrow your scope a little, you can make it harder for me.

3) And whatever novel feature you want to use to show empirical evidence of it's evolution from a single cell organism will work.

As you learned earlier, everything in organisms is a modification of things existing beforehand.

But I would like to see you explain the evolution of the sexual reproduction system. Simultaneously in your ideal of the first life form with them.

The evidence indicates that the first organisms were asexual. However, bacteria have evolved greatly in the last few billion years, and many of them have sexual activity called "conjugation", whereby they connect and share bits of DNA. Notice the evidence is that the first sexual behavior was not reproductive. We still see this today; often the spread of things like the nylon enyzme and antibiotic resistance happens by conjugation between (sometimes other species) bacteria.

However, it didn't end there. Many invertebrates are capable of asexual reproduction but can sometimes also reproduce sexually. Sexual reproduction had a great benefit in the cases where environments were subject to change. In those cases, the increased variability of sexual reproduction was a benefit.

Some organisms eventually evolved to the point that sexual reproduction was the only possible way to reproduce. Again, it's no accident that we can show a chain of events leading to obligate sexual reproduction.

Barbarian suggests:
That's a testable claim. Pick some feature, and we'll see. There are things out there that we don't know yet, so you might get lucky. Let's see what you choose.

(again declines to answer)

Yep. Understand that I'm not asking because I hope you'll actually step up and answer. I'm just using it to point out that creationism has no answers for the evidence.
 
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I realize that you want us to believe it, but so far, Darwin's own words (note the checkable source) show you are wrong.
The facts are what they are - classical Darwinism is atheism. Provine says it very well...
Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. ~ William Provine
Move forward.
 
The facts are what they are

And the fact is, Darwin suggested that God created the first organisms.

classical Darwinism is atheism.

See above. You've been led down the garden path on that one.

(another appeal to athiest ideas)

Sorry. Not buying. Darwin's statement stands as the best evidence about his ideas. You and your atheist friends lost this one. Learn from it and go on.
 
And the fact is, Darwin suggested that God created the first organisms.
Lol - does Richard Dawkins et al agree with that? Classical Darwinism is atheism - those good ol' boys don't allow god-talk and they laugh at your position. You can't reconcile atheism with theism - it can't be done. You have bought a bill of goods but you can learn from your mistake.
In the evolutionary pattern of thought there is no longer either need or room for the supernatural. The earth was not created: it evolved. So did all the animals and plants that inhabit it, including our human selves, mind and soul as well as brain and body. So did religion. ~ Julian Huxley
My, my - where does that leave room for your "God created the first organisms"? Darwinians will not allow god-talk - wake up.
 
Yes. You were shown this several times. Would you like a link to it. I even calculated the information for you.
No you didn't
That's how information is determined. How else would you do it.
Shannon equation has no place in biology as you have learned. You have also tried to deceive everyone watching.
It's always used to measure information in nature.
Its used for communication.

Shannon's crucial concept was that the spheres must not intersect in a communications system, and from this he built the channel capacity formula and theorem. But, at its root, the concept that the spheres must be separated is a biological criterion that does not apply to physical systems in general. Although it is well known that Shannon's uncertainty measure is similar to the entropy function, the channel capacity and its theorem are rarely, if ever, mentioned in thermodynamics or physics, perhaps because these aspects of information theory are about biology, so no direct application could be found in those fields. .
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22519305800542

Information Theory and Population Genetics
Reginald D. Smith
Populations and Evolution (q-bio.PE); Information Theory (cs.IT)
Cornell University Library
The key findings of classical population genetics are derived using a framework based on information theory using the entropies of the allele frequency distribution as a basis. The common results for drift, mutation, selection, and gene flow will be rewritten both in terms of information theoretic measurements and used to draw the classic conclusions for balance conditions and common features of one locus dynamics. Linkage disequilibrium will also be discussed including the relationship between mutual information and r^2 and a simple model of hitchhiking.

Lets look at an example of Barbarian trying to deceive everyone.

Claude Shannon: Biologist
The Founder of Information Theory Used Biology to Formulate the Channel Capacity
Claude Shannon founded information theory in the 1940s. The theory has long been known to be closely related to thermodynamics and physics through the similarity of Shannon's uncertainty measure to the entropy function. Recent work using information theory to understand molecular biology has unearthed a curious fact: Shannon's channel capacity theorem only applies to living organisms and their products, such as communications channels and molecular machines that make choices from several possibilities. Information theory is therefore a theory about biology, and Shannon was a biologist.

IEEE Eng Med Biol Mag. 2006; 25(1): 30–33.

Surprise. How did you suppose a biologist would know so much about information theory?

No biologist.

Claude Elwood Shannon (April 30, 1916 – February 24, 2001) was an American mathematician, electronic engineer, and cryptographer known as "the father of information theory".[1][2]

In 1948 the promised memorandum appeared as "A Mathematical Theory of Communication", an article in two parts in the July and October issues of the Bell System Technical Journal. This work focuses on the problem of how best to encode the information a sender wants to transmit. In this fundamental work he used tools in probability theory, developed by Norbert Wiener, which were in their nascent stages of being applied to communication theory at that time. Shannon developed information entropy as a measure for the uncertainty in a message while essentially inventing the field of information theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon
:shame:shame:shame:shame:shame:shame

Sure. Let's take that example of a new lipoprotein that prevents hardening of the arteries in humans. It was a case of a duplicate gene (the old lipoprotein is still being made in these people), so the original information of the populuation was X (depending on the number of alleles) where X was the negative sum of the frequency each allele, times the log of the frequency of that allele. After the mutation, the information would be X+ negative sum of the product of the frequency of the new allele times the log of the frequency of that allele. Since the log of a number less than one is a negative number, this would mean that X is smaller than X+ (information of new allele).

I can't really make it any simpler than that. Sorry.
Well once again that equation don't work in biology should I post the links and biologist that state this again?
So you example of a duplicate and mutation.
The end
now looks like
The end The edn

2. Barbarian observes
When my challenge to find even one case of two major groups missing a transitional wasn't answered, that pretty much closed out the issue.

(declines again to meet the challenge)

Not surprising. You already know how that will turn out, um?
I have given you plenty of animals to find transitional look below.

The last common ancestor for those would be the first craniates, a subphylum of chordates. There's a living transitional for that, the hagfish. That's pretty easy. If you narrow your scope a little, you can make it harder for me.
Hag fish, you have a lot of linking to do to get to the animals I requested. Remember you was going to show all the evidence and links.

As you learned earlier, everything in organisms is a modification of things existing beforehand.
As you have learned you believe everything evolved from the first cell. Obviously many genomes and features had to develop.

The evidence indicates that the first organisms were asexual. However, bacteria have evolved greatly in the last few billion years, and many of them have sexual activity called "conjugation", whereby they connect and share bits of DNA. Notice the evidence is that the first sexual behavior was not reproductive. We still see this today; often the spread of things like the nylon enyzme and antibiotic resistance happens by conjugation between (sometimes other species) bacteria.

However, it didn't end there. Many invertebrates are capable of asexual reproduction but can sometimes also reproduce sexually. Sexual reproduction had a great benefit in the cases where environments were subject to change. In those cases, the increased variability of sexual reproduction was a benefit.

Some organisms eventually evolved to the point that sexual reproduction was the only possible way to reproduce. Again, it's no accident that we can show a chain of events leading to obligate sexual reproduction.

The evidence is not empirical but an assumption
The word empirical denotes information acquired by means of observation or experimentation.[1] Empirical data are data produced by an observation or experiment.

You need more than your assumption.

Barbarian suggests:
That's a testable claim. Pick some feature, and we'll see. There are things out there that we don't know yet, so you might get lucky. Let's see what you choose.

(again declines to answer)
I gave you the reproductive system. You can go with hair, skin. Any of these things. All you can say is may have ......

Yep. Understand that I'm not asking because I hope you'll actually step up and answer. I'm just using it to point out that creationism has no answers for the evidence.
Actually creation gives answers to everything you see, and observe. The problem is when you reject the word of God and look at the evidence thinking evolution is true you will have to other view of the evidence. When you believe Gods word is true and look at the evidence it is pretty amazing. You have many gaps to fill, creation has none.
Like Zeke and I have shown you evolution don't fit in the Bible and the Bible don't fit in evolution.

It is getting old discussing this with someone trying to deceive you. If you want to call your little example and using an equation for communication for a hypothesis of information being added go ahead. For evolution to be considered feasible you would need to see hole new genomes. As you have learned you believe everything evolved from the first cell. Obviously many genomes and features had to develop. Yet you claim this process happens by something that is 99% of the time harmful and by definition can only change the sequence of DNA not add information. I am about done wasting my time here. When you want to stop wasting time, stop trying to deceive others, stop cutting my post in half, and start answering the question properly (empirical means empirical) then we can talk.
 
Dave,

If you are trying to pass this off as accepted or acceptable, you are going to have to go find some extremely scientifically and biblically illiterate people.

It is also highly offensive, not to mention widely discarded in the scientific community, to refer to races as "stock" or to classify races, especially under the terms "caucasian, negroid and mongoloid."
.



?

You imply that you are educated but I wonder if you spent any time reseacrhing this reference to the earliest appearance of modern man, from which a diversity of what is today seven genetically based branches or races derived from these three stocks.


Here is a totally independent view from a science source where the same idea apparently occurred to the writer:

racial.jpg
 
There are no genetically-based human races today. In fact, the human genome project shows that there is more variation within any human "race" than there is between them.
 
If you can disprove the ToE, be my guest. You would be the first.

It would be very exciting to many scientists and offers you world fame and prestige.

And since you seem to despise the theory so much, it surely would be worth your while.


What's holding you back?


Oh, that's right. An insurmountable body of evidence that, so far, compliments the theory to the point of almost absolute certainty.


?
Scientists don't disprove theories, they replace them with ideas that have more supporting evidence.

ToE, the Theory of Everything, is just a mathematical Theoretical Physics hypothesis that aims at becoming the theory of everything, should they even work out all the mathematics of Strings and then confirm through some experimental predictive process that their Hypothesis has some tangible merit.

The ToE is opposed by Einstien's own Hypothesis, GUT, the Grand Unifying Theory, so the contest continues.



NOTE:
"Present status
At present, no convincing candidate for a TOE is available.
Most particle physicists state that the outcome of the ongoing experiments – the search for new particles at the large particle accelerators and for dark matter – are needed in order to provide theoretical physicists with further input for a TOE."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything
 
There are no genetically-based human races today. In fact, the human genome project shows that there is more variation within any human "race" than there is between them.


Hmmm...
Here is a graphic composed by using data report about 7 years ago and even widely publicized in magazines like US News and Today:


7_genetic_groups_2.jpg
 
The human genome project put and end to that sort of thing.

According to the U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, Office of Biological and Environmental Research, Human Genome Program,

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.

Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Human Genome Project Announces That "Race" Does Not Exist | NowPublic News Coverage http://www.nowpublic.com/world/human-genome-project-announces-race-does-not-exist#ixzz1wyNXxSqd

Francis Collins, who ran the project is a devout evangelical Christian, BTW.
 
It is getting old discussing this with someone trying to deceive you.

Mostly, you're just denying the evidence you've been shown. It's the usual for creationists; they don't often have the scientific knowledge to know the evidence for, or even against evolution.

If you want to call your little example and using an equation for communication for a hypothesis of information being added go ahead.

Biologists use it, because it works. That's the way it is.

For evolution to be considered feasible you would need to see hole new genomes.

No. Entirely new genomes would be evidence for creationism. As you know, evolution procedes by modifying existing genomes.

As you have learned you believe everything evolved from the first cell.

So the evidence indicates.

Obviously many genomes and features had to develop.

Yep. We still observe it happening.

Yet you claim this process happens by something that is 99% of the time harmful

You're wrong about that. Most mutations don't do much of anything. A few are harmful. A very few are useful. Natural selection sorts it out.

and by definition can only change the sequence of DNA not add information.

I just showed you how it increases information.

I am about done wasting my time here.

Libraries are free. Go and learn somethings about information theory and genetics, and biology, and then come back when you have something to offer.

When you want to stop wasting time, stop trying to deceive others, stop cutting my post in half, and start answering the question properly (empirical means empirical) then we can talk.

I don't think generic accusations are going to help you. What you need to to is learn something about the subject.

Passion is no substitute for knowing what you're talking about.
 
The human genome project put and end to that sort of thing.

According to the U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, Office of Biological and Environmental Research, Human Genome Program,

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.
Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Human Genome Project Announces That "Race" Does Not Exist | NowPublic News Coverage http://www.nowpublic.com/world/human-genome-project-announces-race-does-not-exist#ixzz1wyNXxSqd

Francis Collins, who ran the project is a devout evangelical Christian, BTW.



Well we all know that the term Race is socially charged and the government is prone to differ with the science of the matter and such scientists as Dwakins, who supports the work of Geneticist Edwards who insists that the seven racial differences that Lawton first proposed are actually correct:



Richard Dawkins (2005) agreed withEdwards' view, summarizing the argument ... as being:
"However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."[27]


What Edwards had claimed was this:
Edwards saw the argument against such identities as being based mostly in apolitical stance that denies the existence biological difference in order toargue for social equality.

But he held firmly to the scientific concept that modern men can be sorted out and scientifically classified into seven groups that essentially are what is meant by "race."

Edwards argued that, even if the probability of misclassifying an individual based on a single genetic marker is as high as 30%, the misclassification probability becomes close to zero if enough genetic markers are studied simultaneously.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics#Race_and_population_genetic_structure
 
"For these reasons the fact that there are genetically differentiated populations does not necessarily validate the concept of race - since racial categorization of individuals is generally based on very broad criteria founded on arbitrary phenotypical characteristics such as skin color, which do not correlate well with geographic ancestry. "

"While acknowledging the correctness of Lewontin's observation that racial groups are genetically homogeneous, geneticist A. W. F. Edwards in the paper "Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy" (2003) argued that the conclusion that racial groups can not be genetically distinguished from each other is incorrect"


There's the context you left out, which does not agree at all with your conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics#Race_and_population_genetic_structure


And no, Edwards did not firmly hold onto the belief that man can be classified into 7 groups. That's not a scientific position. Currently, we define populations by haplogroups:

correct-y-hg.png




Besides, correlations between geographical areas and genetics obviously exists in human populations, but that has nothing to do with "race." The goal of the theory of race was to discover large clusters of people that are principally homogeneous within and heterogeneous between, contrasting groups. Lewontin's analysis shows that such groups do not exist in the human species.

Edward's rebuttal does not contradict that conclusion.
 
?

You imply that you are educated but I wonder if you spent any time reseacrhing this reference to the earliest appearance of modern man, from which a diversity of what is today seven genetically based branches or races derived from these three stocks.


Here is a totally independent view from a science source where the same idea apparently occurred to the writer:

racial.jpg


I checked the property source code for your graphic. It's not a science source. Not even close. I wouldn't even call this pseudo-science. The content found within this person's website it quite disturbing in a "son of Sam" way.

How did you even come across this? I'd better do some digging.
 
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