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[_ Old Earth _] Evolution taught in High School - Violation of Rights?

  • Thread starter Thread starter disciple_of_truth
  • Start date Start date
Ok, but can you show me the evidence?

Again, feel free to peruse the above posts for examples, but I'm certainly willing to cite some more, as you specifically asked for examples of evidence of common descent, and of natural selection, and genetic/biochemical evidence.

Evidence of common descent is any evidence that shows different species of organisms share a common ancestor.(chimps and humans-we have similar body shape, number of hair follicles, etc. we share a nearly identical(96%) DNA sequence.

Evidence of natural selection: The textbook example of the Peppered Moths is a widely-used example of natural selection; that an organisms environment will "select" for or against a particular trait. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms by which evolution works.
Natural selection would dictate that any animal not suited to it's environment would be "weeded out" by nature itself.

Genetic/Biochemical evidence: As I've previously stated, the best new evidence for ToE comes from these fields. They also provide evidence of common descent from the study of gene sequences. Comparative sequence analysis examines the relationship between the DNA sequences of different species, producing several lines of evidence that confirm Darwin's original hypothesis of common descent. If the hypothesis of common descent is true, then species that share a common ancestor will have inherited that ancestor's DNA sequence. They will have also inherited mutations unique to that ancestor. More closely-related species will have a greater fraction of identical sequence and will have shared substitutions when compared to more distantly-related species (Like chimps and humans, compared with chimps and mice). Feel free to do a google search to look at the DNA sequence of closely/distantly related species for more evidence.

Scripture alone contains the "fully developed positive case for the necessity of ID".
First of all, you seem to be promoting flat-out biblical creationism, not id, which theoretically postulates an unnamed, intelligent designer. Secondly, scriptural authority cannot logically be considered evidence/proof of ID. What I meant by my original question, is what natural phenomena or processes (not scriptural authority) do you see in the world that would support the alleged claim that naturalistic processes are inadequate explanations of those phenomena/processes? Moreover, how does ID debunk our existing natural explanations?

How often does a beneficial mutation occur in a species then?
Who knows? why does it matter? How many raindrops fall during a thunderstorm? If a mutation gives that organism a survival advantage, then we consider it beneficial.

..are all species currently at the same level of order and complexity?
Ahh, I apologize, I misunderstood. You were using the terms "higher/lower" as "more complex/less complex". Of course, humans are more complex than single-celled organisms.

I personally happen to be a scientist and teacher of science
Then aren't you already aware of the evidence? If it's that you are aware of the evidence, but just don't buy it, Well, I can grudgingly accept that, I mean, I guess I'd have to. Some evolutionary biologist out there could cite examples that would blow mine out of the water, probably more eloquently, too. What is your degree in?

Dogs and cats have a "common ancestor", Dogs did not "come from" cats, or vice-verse.


What is that common ancestor and what is the evidence for this?

even better, here's a blurb from the journal Scientific American that tells of the discovery of the animal that may be the ancestor of all placental mammals.
June 21, 2007 Ancient Ancestor Of Humans, Dogs, Cats, Llamas, Sloths, Marmots...

The little guy lived more than 70 million years ago in what’s now the Gobi desert. In 1997, his remains were discovered by fossil hunters. And in a paper published in the new issue of the journal Nature, researchers announced that they think he’s a member of the kind of mammal that is the ancestor of us all. And I do mean all, all placental mammals, you, me, Fido, Felix, manatees, elephants, every placental mammal now living on earth.

The tiny ancient shrew-like mammal is called Maelestes gobiensis. Researchers analyzed over 400 anatomical features of 69 species of living and other fossil mammals, along with the recent discovery. The genealogical tree they drew puts our common ancestor right about the same time that the dinosaurs began to dwindle, due to a giant impact event some 65 million years ago.

So the little shrew offers confirming evidence that the disappearance of the dinosaur lines that didn’t go on to become birds was what allowed mammals to evolve into the multiple forms we see today. And to take advantage of all the opportunities the dinosaurs left behind.-SA 2007

Macro-evolution has occurred when an organism can no longer produce viable offspring with it's parent group. This is also called "speciation".


Any examples?

The most famous are flora/fauna of the Galapagos Islands. The islands are young (some ~ 1 million years), have a volcanic origin providing an opportunity for new arrivals to "radiate" into open niches and the islands are quite distant from the mainland. This isolation will allow for a random element in community composition. Irrespective of genetic consequences of the founding event, subsequent evolution of species quite likely will be under dramatically different selective regime than those in the source population, like Darwin's finches. Morphological and genetic studies indicate that they are derived from single ancestral finch, i.e., are monophyletic. There has been dramatic specialization in ecological roles, each species having distinct morphologies and associated food items (beak size and shape associated with seed size, grub feeding, tool use, etc.). Classic examples of different distributions of beak depths: difference between means is greater between species when they occur on the same island than when they occur alone on different islands.
Hawaiian Drosophila show remarkable patterns of speciation. At least 700 species of Drosophilids live on the Hawaiian islands. Not just typical little fruit flies either: large body size, dramatic "picture wing" species, some with "hammer-head" shaped heads. Banding patterns of polytene chromosomes allows phylogeny reconstruction: these and other data show that patterns of colonization are from older to younger islands (flies on Hawaii are derived from ancestors on Maui). Most species are found only on one island (high levels of endemism). This implies that most new colonization events have lead to speciation events.
Climatic changes associated with the glacial advances and retreats altered habitats in the tropics resulting in "islands" of habitat that fluctuated in size and geographic location, leading to fragmentation of distributions and contribution to speciation. Believed to be one explanation for patterns of speciation in the Amazon. Also, the genus Larus (seagulls) fragmented in Siberia during the Pleistocene. Diverged populations of Larus argentatus (herring gull) colonized eastern Siberia, across the Bering straits, across North America, Iceland and back to Northern Europe becoming increasingly diverged at each step. Hybrid zones exist between successive populations but the ends of the ring are reproductively isolated showing that speciation has gone to completion

Seriously, there are lots of examples. anyone interested should just google "Examples of speciation". You are free to provide evidence that any of these and others do not actually show speciation.

I can tell you both when and how. Approximately 5,790 years and 4 days ago God spoke life into existence. It's that simple.

What is the evidence that shows the earth is that young?
What is the evidence that all of the current dating methods we use are inaccurate?
You don't find it the least bit compelling that several different dating methods, all operating on different principles, all show the earth to be much older?
What is it about radio-metric dating, for example, that you find faulty?

Every organism that lives today is a "transitional form".


So, prove it.

The term "Transitional form" just means that. An intermediate form between what came before and what will come after. If an organism produces offspring, then that organism is a "transitional form" between it's parents and it's offspring. There is nothing to "prove".

What happened to the fossilized ancestors of modern organisms. Why can't we just look at those to see first hand the types and combinations of features that did exist and were likely to exist among ancestors of modern organisms.
We do, but the fossil record is incomplete, due to the very specific conditions required for fossilization to occur. These days, genetics and biochemistry help bridge the gap through gene sequencing and comparative DNA analysis.

Well, I guess the fossil record doesn't do much to provide us with any evidence or examples of evolution.
Why? because every living thing that ever existed wasn't perfectly fossilized? The fossils that exist provide lots of evidence. It's just that these days, evidence for evolution can be almost solely supported by genetics and DNA sequencing.

please, show what the evidence is that any of these things could not have been produced by natural processes. What is the evidence that shows only a super-intelligence could have produced these things? what is the evidence that the naturalistic explanations we already have for these things are provably false?


DNA. DNA is information. Information only comes from intelligence.
What does that even mean?
Are you suggesting that a snowflake contains "information" in it's complex, 6-sided shape? That it cannot occur naturally? would you say that the structure of a water molecule contains "information" about the structure of a snowflake? We know that in living organisms, information is passed from parent to offspring at the genetic level. If changes in that info due to random mutation help that organism to survive, then they will get passed on to the next generation.

Again, I encourage you to list any evidence that contradicts our current naturalistic explanation for these phenomena.


Yah, see above. God's Word and the Creation itself

Please explain how this could be considered "evidence". Because it says so? It's not independently verifiable by anyone. Your belief in it is a matter of faith, not evidence.
There are other religious texts that claim things happened differently. why don't you consider them true?

None of this is evidence. This type of rhetoric always leaves more questions than it answers. Cat's have always been one of two things throughout all of history. They have either been wild or domestic. Either way, their all still cat's. Just because some cats have been domesticated doesn't mean those same cat's will eventually evolve into some other species of animal.
.

It's evidence that living things change, which is all evolution is. Look at the different kinds of domesticated cat/dog we have, Certain traits were selected as desirable by humans, and they were selectively bred, resulting in the differentiation we see today. This is change. This is evolution. The same thing happens in nature, but it's caused by natural (as opposed to human) selection.

disciple_of_truth wrote:
And if you were going to update these textbooks with current, modern day evidences what would those evidences be?

Ignatz wrote:
I would place special emphasis on current genetics, and less time on using fossils when discussing TOE. (Fossils are interesting, but this would be an improvement as I see it). What we have learned from the study of DNA is that small genetic changes can result in major changes to the form and structure of organisms.


None of this is evidence.
Why don't you cite evidence that it is incorrect rather than just declaring something "non-evidence"? The process of evolution occurs at the DNA/gene level, changes at this level are responsible for the phenotypic variation we see around us.

For example, a single genetic mutation will cause a grass seed from a plant that came from parents with smooth or hairy seeds to have large spikes, resulting in the development of the sandspur.


Does not prove evolution and is not evidence for evolution. Adaptation does not prove "Macro-evolution".
Seriously, this IS evolution, and we can see the genetic mutation that causes this trait. Again, for the umpteenth time, lots of micro-evolution (or adaptation, whatever you want to call it, it's change) will, over time, eventually result in macro-evolution.

The most significant discovery that has impacted our understanding of evolution is the discovery of DNA.


The discovery of DNA is quit damaging to toe as indicated above. DNA itself does not constitute evidence for toe nor is it an example of.
What this means, is that the discovery of DNA allowed us to do gene sequencing and DNA analysis, which gives us evidence of common descent at the genetic level, etc. that previously we could not do with only fossils at our disposal.

Observations don't demonstrate anything.
Um, What?
Nobody is trying to trick you by stating that observing something is a perfectly legitimate way to learn about it. in fact, the more closely you observe something, the more accurate your conclusions tend to be.
 
disciple_of_truth said:
VaultZero4Me wrote:
Here is a good wiki linking the mounds of evidence in favor of common decent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o ... m_genetics
I do know of course that wiki isn't a real source, but the source material at the bottom has many great reputable sources for you to thumb through.

As you may know, I have challenged smos to chose one of the pieces of evidence he cited in an earlier post. This challenge can be found in the One-On-One Debate forum under the title "Evidence for Evolution (disciple_of_truth vs. smos) ". If he fails to respond then I will open it up to others so that we might pick through each evidence one at a time to see if there really is any evidence to support toe.

[quote:1vos22fw]Besides the mounting evidence we are learning through gene sequencing, one of the best arguments is the layering of the fossil record. I can't imagine any other explanation.

What specific evidence have we learned about through gene sequencing? What exactly about the layering of the fossil record becomes positive evidence for toe?

I do have one question for you, ID, in my understanding, accepts evolution. It just adds that their must be a designer to go along with it. You seem to be totally against evolution, yet a supporter of ID. With my understanding of ID, that is an untenable position. Is my understanding of ID wrong?

I think your understanding might be a little wrong, but not totally. Also, I suppose I have been somewhat misleading about my position regarding ID. I have often yet wrongly associated ID with Creationism (ID/Creation) and should not be doing that because the two are distinct.

Darwinists continually confuse ID (Intelligent Design) with Biblical creationism (Creationism). Creationism holds that a Supreme Being (the God of the Bible) created the heavens and earth and all that are in them. There are two types of creationists, young earth and old earth.

Young earth creationists take the six day creation account of Genesis as literal (six, 24 hour days), and believe that the universe is 6,000 to 10,000 years old. Also, young earth creationists believe that most fossils were deposited during Noah's flood. Additionally, many accept "adaptation" (micro-evolution) as God's means of allowing changes within a species (NOT the all out transformation from one species into a different species.)

Old earth creationists accept a broader interpretation of Genesis and hold that contemporary scientific dating places the age of the earth at roughly 4.5 billion years old and the age of the universe at 13.7 billion years old. They accept "micro-evolution" as God's mechanism of adapting species to suit their environments. Some even accept "macro-evolution" as God's mechanism for the all out transformation of one species into completely different species.

ID is often confused with Creationism but, it is very different from it. ID does not begin with an interpretation of Genesis. In fact, ID proponents include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and even agnostics. ID begins with critical observations of the natural world. ID looks for patterns in nature that are best explained as a product of intelligence. Because of what the natural world revels about itself, IDists reason that designing intelligence must be responsible for these patterns found in nature. ID does not make any prior assumptions of divine activity but, rather, it relies on methods developed within the scientific community for recognizing intelligence. ID does not identify the designer. The identity of the designer goes beyond the scientific evidence for design.

The majority of ID proponents believe in some form of creation, but not all. As you know even Richard Dawkins proposes that life on earth was created by some other beings on some other planet who then seeded earth with that created life. If that's not a definition of an IDist then what is, right? I suppose that some IDists actually accept micro-evolution and some might even accept macro-evolution.

I personally am a modern day scientist as well as an ID proponent, a young earth Creationist who believes in the God of the Bible and also believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and that He alone is the only way to eternal life in heaven. I believe that the Bible is God's revealed Word and Truth to man.[/quote:1vos22fw]

I have participated in debates on here in the past for the sake of debating. At this point, I do not enjoy debating this topic, as it as been done over and over.

My personal belief that anyone who thinks that ToE is hog wash either:

1) is ignorant of the facts
2) knows the facts, but refuses to accept them based on their understanding of their religious scriptures
3) has been gullible to the very unscientific writings of Hovind or Ken Ham

The evidence for ToE is so concrete now that it is generally considered a fact by the scientific community. The only debate is within religious circles (largely in the USA and Canada).

I am sure you disagree with the above, and that is the point we just agree to disagree. I merely presented you with some source material for you to have a better understanding of what you disagree with.
 
The majority of ID proponents believe in some form of creation, but not all. As you know even Richard Dawkins proposes that life on earth was created by some other beings on some other planet who then seeded earth with that created life. If that's not a definition of an IDist then what is, right? I suppose that some IDists actually accept micro-evolution and some might even accept macro-evolution.

Actually, Dawkins proposed that exogenesis was one method for our genesis, but in the same quote, he explains this only pushes everything up one level. The life that started our evolution on earth would need an origin.
Dawkins - life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen.
It comes down to believing that whatever was the first life, had a natural source or supernatural source. This has nothing to do with evolution. ToE starts after life has its beginning.

I personally feel that a natural source will eventually be understood through science, while some believe it never will. They believe it had to have a supernatural beginning.

These views are opposite, yet do not necessarily cause one to have opposing views on ToE (since ToE is after this beginning).

One can believe that life had a supernatural start without being part of the ID movement, assuming they believe natural process took over after then.
 
I have participated in debates on here in the past for the sake of debating. At this point, I do not enjoy debating this topic, as it as been done over and over.
I would tend to agree with VaultZero4Me at this point in the debate, although Disciple's above suggestion of a thread about the evolution of religion may indeed prove interesting.

I've laid out a few specific evidences for evolution, from simple fossil morphology to in-depth gene/DNA sequencing, and there are hundreds of thousands of other examples on any tenet of the ToE freely available online.

If your response to any physical, morphological, genetic, or DNA evidence I cite is simply "That's not evidence" There's really nothing anyone can do. The fact of the matter, as you know, is that there is certainly enough evidence supporting the ToE that it is taken seriously in scientific circles, and if one wants to have ID taught in public schools, then it's proponents need to go out and find the evidence that supports ID, and show how current evidence supporting the ToE is incorrect. It's absolutely possible to falsify the theory. Find evidence of rabbits existing in the pre-cambrian, for example, and ToE would be forced to account for it, or get out of the way.

As it stands, ID supporters are using court orders and legal action to get their ideas thrust into a public school science classroom. That isn't science.

Go out, build your case, find the evidence, and nobody will be able to ignore ID.
 
Ignatz,
When I say, "where is the evidence" or "show me the evidence" or "what evidence" or "prove it" I would expect that a reasonable response from you, or anyone else, would be to explain to me the actual test or tests that have been conducted complete with the observable data listed and explained or, show to me the actual and physical evidence or even pictures of evidence provided the pictures are trustworthy. This is what I would hope for. This is what I have tried to ask for from you and others but, all anyone wants to do is cite "studies" done or point out "research" that has been done or tell me to read "papers" that were written. None of this is evidence. Somewhere within these "studies", "papers" and "research" there must be some sort of positive evidence to support evolution. But, it seems that all anyone want's to do is throw around words and names and studies without ever pointing out exactly what the real evidence is in any of it.

Furthermore, your definition and/or understanding of "evolution" or TOE seems to be quit different than others. In fact, there are so many different "ideas" of what evolution is that it's really hard to keep track of it all. You say that all evolution is is when living things change. You seem to suggest that even from one generation to the very next evolution has occurred. Why is it that other's define evolution differently than you?

Your definition of "transitional form" (as in a fossil) is also not the same as others.

If I say, "none of this is evidence" and you disagree, then please explain to me what exactly about what you've presented IS evidence.

Nobody is trying to trick you by stating that observing something is a perfectly legitimate way to learn about it. in fact, the more closely you observe something, the more accurate your conclusions tend to be.

An observation is merely the act of closely watching or monitoring something happening, or someone doing something in order to gain information. An observation is NOT evidence of anything. Data that is collected through the observation(s) may be positive evidence but, the observation itself is NOT evidence.

There is an awful lot of wrongness with the cites you mentioned above that supposedly are evidences for evolution. Maybe some of them are real evidences. I doubt it. And I will make every effort to point out why I doubt each of them.

Right now though I must get ready for another wolf hunt coming up this weekend. So, please forgive me for not responding just yet. I want to do it right and not half-hazardly. So, I will take some time to "cool off" and collect myself (and hopefully an animal or two) and come back here early next week and respond like I should. Until then, may God keep you safe, happy and healthy as well as your family.

In the mean time, don't forget to check back on page four for more responses to your responses. In particular about how evolution is a religion.
 
What are you holding as the definition of evidence then?

With your criteria, there is no evidence that the sun runs on nuclear fusion.

PZ Myers wrote an interesting article a while back when Ann Coulter wrote her book, "Godless". In that book, she made the claim that there is no evidence for ToE. Of course, one should be alarmed that someone without a science degree, and main focus has been TV and garnering media attention, is making such a "scientific" claim.

Here is a link to his article. The main interest you will find is all of the links to more evidence you can shake a stick at, including this resource http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46 from Berkeley.

Also there is another article that PZ Myers wrote regarding evolution in the lab, something that is claimed by creationists not to exist.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/evolution_of_a_polyphenism.php
 
When I say, "where is the evidence" or "show me the evidence" or "what evidence" or "prove it" I would expect that a reasonable response from you, or anyone else, would be to explain to me the actual test or tests that have been conducted complete with the observable data listed and explained or, show to me the actual and physical evidence or even pictures of evidence provided the pictures are trustworthy. This is what I would hope for.

There's a mountain of evidence. Even many creationists admit that much. Some of the more compelling evidence:

1. Observed macroevolution. One species evolves into another. Over time, species evolve into new genera, families, etc.

2. Genetic evidence:
  • DNA analysis shows the same evolutionary tree as other evidence. We know it works, because it is used to show human family relationships and can be checked.

  • Chromosome analysis shows humans with one less chromosome than chimps, but one human chromosome is identical to two chimp chromosomes right down to the remains of telomeres and a centromere, right where they would be if a fusion occured.

3. Existence of numerous transitional organisms.

4. Verified predictions of evolutionary theory.

5. Verification of natural selection

6. Observation of the evolution of irreducibly complex features.

If you'd like some detail pick as many as you'd like, and we'll spend some time showing you.

Furthermore, your definition and/or understanding of "evolution" or TOE seems to be quit different than others. In fact, there are so many different "ideas" of what evolution is that it's really hard to keep track of it all. You say that all evolution is is when living things change. You seem to suggest that even from one generation to the very next evolution has occurred. Why is it that other's define evolution differently than you?

The definition is "change in allele frequency over time." And yes, evolution is going on all the time, even from one generation to the next. Observably so. There are many "definitions" by people who are not scientists. But if you use the one scientists use, you won't be confused.

As I said, pick some you'd like to learn about, and we'll go on.
 
Hello everyone, just thought I'd pop in on the thread. (I hope I'm not too intrusive by posting this... please continue with other conversations that may have started).

This week has been finals week, so I've had to take a leave from responding here in the meantime and wanted to apologize for being absent, but thanks for holding down the fort everyone!

On cursory glance, it seems that disciple_of_truth has challenged me to a formal debate on the "evidence for evolution." My first thought is to agree with VaultZero4Me that there have been tons of identical debates in which no one was convinced either way, and I think it would probably end up being somewhat of a sad spectacle of repeating what science actually is, and what it claims, and how it works, which has basically already been done here and many other places.

Furthermore, I find the debate topic itself to be flawed, for reasons I'll try to go over in the debate thread.

Other than that, carry on! :D
 
The Barbarian wrote:
There's a mountain of evidence. Even many creationists admit that much. Some of the more compelling evidence:

1. Observed macroevolution. One species evolves into another. Over time, species evolve into new genera, families, etc.

2. Genetic evidence:
  • DNA analysis shows the same evolutionary tree as other evidence. We know it works, because it is used to show human family relationships and can be checked.

  • Chromosome analysis shows humans with one less chromosome than chimps, but one human chromosome is identical to two chimp chromosomes right down to the remains of telomeres and a centromere, right where they would be if a fusion occured.

3. Existence of numerous transitional organisms.

4. Verified predictions of evolutionary theory.

5. Verification of natural selection

6. Observation of the evolution of irreducibly complex features.

If you'd like some detail pick as many as you'd like, and we'll spend some time showing you.

Unbelievable. Again, none of what you have listed is evidence of anything. The statement "Observed macroevolution" is not evidence. What specific detailed observations and/or collected data and/or experimental tests can you site that have proved to support evolution. You can't just say "one species evolves into another". You have to explain what specific scientific data supports your claim. To say that we have "numerous transitional organisms" does not make up any sort of specific data. What organisms? Can you list them and explain why the data shows they are evidence for evolution.

If you'd like some detail pick as many as you'd like, and we'll spend some time showing you.

Oh will you now. OK then. let's keep it simple. Let's start off with one item from above. How about......DNA.
Specifically, what about DNA is evidence that supports macroevolution (the gradual development of a more complex (higher order) of species from a simpler (lower order) species over several generations. What we are dealing with here is the idea that one species changes or evolves into a new species. I'm not talking about what you all call "micro-evolution" which is nothing more than "adaptation".

Furthermore, "change in allele frequency over time" is most certainly NOT how the dictionary defines evolution and doesn't come close to what science text books are teaching our students in the classrooms. Maybe scientists should, once in awhile, share their changes in definitions with the rest of the world. As it is, evolution (macroevolution) is a theory that suggests what I have stated above; "the gradual development of a more complex (higher order) of species from a simpler (lower order) species over several generations."

If you agree with that definition then explain what about DNA is evidence that supports macroevolution. If you do not agree with that definition then, by all means, please explain what you do mean by "macroevolution".
 
Unbelievable. Again, none of what you have listed is evidence of anything. The statement "Observed macroevolution" is not evidence.

Of course it is. In 1904, DeVries documented the evolution of O. gigas from O. lamarckania. The offspring of one plant was a different plant, which was no longer interfertile with O. lamarckania. We now know that it was by a polyploidy event.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8tz2aB ... &ct=result

What specific detailed observations and/or collected data and/or experimental tests can you site that have proved to support evolution.

Recent cytological studies showing that the human #2 chromosome is the same as two chimpanzee chromosomes. Further study showed that the remains of a centromere and telemeres were found in the chromosome right where they were predicted to be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1521 ... t=Abstract

You can't just say "one species evolves into another". You have to explain what specific scientific data supports your claim.

See above. There's a lot more.

To say that we have "numerous transitional organisms" does not make up any sort of specific data. What organisms?

Too many to list. Here's a pretty cool one that confirms predictions that frogs and salamanders have a common ancestor:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 06865.html

Can you list them and explain why the data shows they are evidence for evolution.

Too many to list, but if you pick a few groups said to be evolutionarily related, I'll see if I can find a transition for you.

If you'd like some detail pick as many as you'd like, and we'll spend some time showing you.

Code:
Oh will you now. OK then. let's keep it simple. Let's start off with one item from above. How about......DNA.
Specifically, what about DNA is evidence that supports macroevolution (the gradual development of a more complex (higher order) of species from a simpler (lower order) species over several generations.

It turns out that DNA of organisms is most similar to other organisms that are closely related. We know this is true, because it is capable of establishing paternity, siblings, even nationality or geographic origin in many cases. And when we do the same tests on many kinds of organisms, we get the same nested hierarchy that was obtained by Linnaeus (a creationist, BTW) when he first set up the scientific classification of living things.

What we are dealing with here is the idea that one species changes or evolves into a new species.

Right. Micro-evolution is adaptation within a species. Macroevolution is the evolution of new species, genera, etc.

I'm not talking about what you all call "micro-evolution" which is nothing more than "adaptation".

Right. Microevolution does not produce new species.

Furthermore, "change in allele frequency over time" is most certainly NOT how the dictionary defines evolution

It's how scientists define it. And they get to decide.

and doesn't come close to what science text books are teaching our students in the classrooms.

I think it is. All the textbooks I know about, do it that way.

If you agree with that definition then explain what about DNA is evidence that supports macroevolution.

Shows common descent. And we know it works, as you see, because we can test it on organisms of known descent.

If you do not agree with that definition then, by all means, please explain what you do mean by "macroevolution".

It is, as you now know, the evolution of new taxa.

The actual definition of macroevolution accepted by scientists is "any change at the species level or above" (phyla, group, etc.) and microevolution is "any change below the level of species."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution

There really is no difference, except that macroevolution somehow produces reproductive isolation in one subpopulation, and microevolution does not.
 
Hello debaters~

I wrote a second paper on (ID) Intelliegent Design and its legality in the classroom which looks at some of the errors that science organizations have with its concepts and offers the current legalality for teachers to use it as a source in the classroom. On the latter point, see the underlined text. I hope this helps to answer the actual legal ramification questions asked a bit.

Design-ism or Deism


The tiny figures scaling the monolith carefully examined its weather torn surface; certainly there was something creative at work in these features and patterns throughout the mountainside. As Royand observed the work from his distant position he saw that each of the four distinct forms had similar features, and the complexity of pattern revealed design, though the data input thus far remained inconclusive. This dead planet was very likely razed by random implosions and had exhibited no earlier known signs of life. However, the research would continue until all avenues of exploration for these phenomena were discovered. It remained the honored work of their planet’s intrepid intellects to scan the cosmos for all intellectual signs of life. As the excavators worked Royand sought the sky for the familiar band of light which reminded him of home. It was a long way across that band and he would not see his green planet, Simaril, ever again. Still, they were certain now, that the cosmos held the mysteries to origin.

What if humans became extinct leaving few signs of their pre-existence, and aliens visiting the earth discovered Mount Rushmore in basically the same condition as it is now? What about this rock formation would provide convincing evidence that it was due to a designing intelligence, not merely to wind and erosion? Would signs of an intelligent cause mean that the origin was God? That is the question of the moment. Opponents of intelligent design claim its studies are creationistic not scientific thus having no legal right to be defined as a science; ID’s design theorists counter that all their inquiries use appropriate scientific methods with formal disclosure, and that only intelligent causes adequately explain the specified complexity in structures of biology, therefore ID should be defined legally as a teleology science.

The foremost argument of opponents to ID’s scientific acceptance is that it is the same as creationism. Eugenie Scott and Nicolas Matzke inform educators in an article published in National Science and Education; “The content of ID is a subset of the claims made by the older "creation science" movement. Both creationist views contend that highly complex biological adaptations and even organisms categorically cannot result from natural causes but require a supernatural creative agent. (Scott and Matzke)(Emphasis added) Creationists start with the premise that God created, and deduct a Designer. ID inducts the arrangements of preexisting materials that point to an intelligent cause. In arguing the design of natural systems, intelligent design is more modest than the design arguments of natural theology known as creationism. A theologian might point to nature and say, “Clearly, the designer of this ecosystem prized variety over neatness.†A design theorist doing design-theoretic research on that ecosystem might reply, “Although that’s an intriguing theological possibility, as a design theorist I focus on the informational pathways capable of producing that variety.â€Â

Not all dissenters of ID theology agree that design evidence must indentify a designer. â€ÂOxford's Richard Dawkins was interviewed for a film called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed; in it he shares his actual “scientific evolutionary beliefâ€Â. He is quoted by Tom Bethell in the American Spectator;
Dawkins, speaking with refreshing frankness . . . allows that science knows nothing about the origin of life, and that, yes, the Darwinian message is antithetical to religion. He surprises us, too, by allowing that if life really was designed, the designing must have been done by intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos who themselves evolved by naturalistic means. (Bethell)
Richard Dawkins wrote a book titled The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design. In which Dawkins postulates that living systems; "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose". (Bethell) Even if Dawkins is right about the universe revealing no evidence of design, it does not logically follow that it was not created. It is logically possible that God created a world that provides no evidence of design. Oppositely, it is logically possible that the world is filled with signs of intelligence but was not created.

The advocates of ID base their theory on biological and physical data generally accepted in science as analytical methods. ID scientists “observe†the types of information produced when intelligent agents act, then “rigorously test†objects which have those same types of informational properties commonly known to come from intelligence. Last, they seek to establish what “scientific hypothesis†can be drawn from the evidence. ID has applied these scientific methods to detect design in four areas of nature thus far. Including; irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.

Critics of intelligent design often claim that design theorists do not publish their work in appropriate peer-reviewed journals, called formal disclosure. For example, Barbara Forrest, a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University, was quoted in her article for Church and State, “They argue that ID is based on cutting-edge science. Yet even ID proponents with legitimate science credentials have never produced one iota of original scientific data to support these claims.†(Forrest) Further, educators are deterred from giving ID a fair hearing, Eugenie Scott and Nicolas Matzke use a plea to fear tactic in their article, Biological Design in Science Classrooms. Educators reading the National Science and Education journal are warned that; “ID is nonetheless contributing substantially to a long-standing assault on the integrity of science education.†(Scott and Matzke) However, the opposite is true. The scientists inquiring into intelligent design have published their new findings in a variety of appropriate technical venues, including peer-reviewed scientific journals, peer-reviewed scientific books (some in mainstream university presses), trade presses, peer-edited scientific anthologies, peer-edited scientific conference proceedings and peer-reviewed philosophy of science journals and books. Included after the works cited page of this essay is a full listing of their current works included for reference. (Discovery Institute 19) Science education and all its venues will grow in integrity as this new and developing research establishes a large base of formal predictions that may be tested by other researchers extensively.

Intelligent design’s central claim is that only intelligent causes adequately explain complex, information-rich structures of biology which are empirically detectable. The following synopsis is an explanation of Stephen Meyers thesis, Intelligent design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories, given for the proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. Precise methods for reliably distinguishing intelligent causes from undirected natural causes are used to establish this data. Many special sciences have already developed such methods for drawing this distinctionâ€â€notably forensic science, cryptography, and archeology. Essential to all these methods is the ability to eliminate chance and necessity. Analyzing a system’s components, a design theorist determines whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination of the same. Chance and design are essentially different, because design must be specifically complex, while any complexity in chance is a matter of probability. An improbable event witnessed through long periods of say, flipping a coin, does not adequately eliminate chance. The important thing about specifications is that they are found objectively prearranged and not arbitrarily imposed on events after the fact. Consequently, specified complexity is a reliable empirical marker of intelligence in the same way that fingerprints are a dependable experimental indicator of a person’s presence. Additionally, design theorists argue that neither purely material factors nor random deviations can sufficiently account for specified complexity. (Meyers)

The result of painting these men as God-pushers is it legally restrains intelligent design from ever being considered acceptable as a competing teleology for evolution in fields of science. This is misuse of the separation of church and state clause in the Constitution. Clearly, U.S. Supreme Court precedents permit both the teaching of evolution as well as teaching scientific criticisms of other prevailing scientific theories. The controlling legal judgment over whether competing teleology’s may be taught in the science classroom is not the recent media-hyped case, Kitzmiller v. Dover. The Supreme Court ruling in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) takes precedence; in which the Court explicitly stated: “We do not imply that a legislature could never require that scientific critiques of prevailing scientific theories be taught.†(Edwards v. Aguilliard) Interestingly, the court also made clear that teachers have the right to teach students about, “a variety of scientific theories about origins . . . with the clear secular intent of enhancing science education.†(Edwards v. Aguilliard)

Finally, if Darwin had known what is now known about molecular biology with gigabytes of coded information in DNA, cells rife with tiny machines, and the highly specific structures of certain proteins, would he have found his own theory convincing? His own writings confirm no bias on Darwin’s part. “A fair result can be obtained only by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question.†(Darwin) Highly respected scientists are swaying in either direction of this debate, Stephen C. Meyer is a Doctor of Philosophy at Cambridge University, UK. In his article for the Telegraph newspaper in 2006, Intelligent Design is Not Creationism, he defends good science.

Many astrophysicists initially rejected the Big Bang theory because it seemed to point to the need for a transcendent cause of matter, space and time. But science eventually accepted it because the evidence strongly supported it though it's basic theoretical origins are still subjective. Based on our uniform experience, we know of only one type of cause that produces irreducibly complex systems: intelligence. Whenever we encounter complex systems - whether integrated circuits or internal combustion engines - and we know how they arose, invariably a designing intelligence played a role. (Meyer)

Today, a similar prejudice confronts ID. Equally, this new theory must also be evaluated on the basis of the evidence, not the philosophical preferences or prevailing ideologies.
We must follow the evidence, wherever it leads.

Thanks for reading...

bonnie
 
The result of painting these men as God-pushers is it legally restrains intelligent design from ever being considered acceptable as a competing teleology for evolution in fields of science.

It's perhaps unfortunate, but they pretty much tipped their hand when the let the Wedge Document slip out. It clearly has them saying among themselves that their objective is to spread their rather odd religious ideas.

This is misuse of the separation of church and state clause in the Constitution. Clearly, U.S. Supreme Court precedents permit both the teaching of evolution as well as teaching scientific criticisms of other prevailing scientific theories.

But the religious doctrines of ID don't qualify as a theories.

The controlling legal judgment over whether competing teleology’s may be taught in the science classroom is not the recent media-hyped case, Kitzmiller v. Dover. The Supreme Court ruling in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) takes precedence; in which the Court explicitly stated: “We do not imply that a legislature could never require that scientific critiques of prevailing scientific theories be taught.†(Edwards v. Aguilliard)

Note, "scientific critiques." That's what tripped up ID in Dover.

Interestingly, the court also made clear that teachers have the right to teach students about, “a variety of scientific theories about origins . . . with the clear secular intent of enhancing science education.†(Edwards v. Aguilliard)

No problem. It's being done now. But it's both dishonest and blasphemous to try to sneak God in the back door in disguise.

Finally, if Darwin had known what is now known about molecular biology with gigabytes of coded information in DNA, cells rife with tiny machines, and the highly specific structures of certain proteins, would he have found his own theory convincing?

Absolutely. He had his own little issue, an assertion by Kelvin that the Earth was at best a few million years old. And Kelvin's numbers were impeccable. Darwin agreed, it was a problem, but expressed his confidence in the overwhelming evidence for evolution. Later, when radioactivity made it clear why Kelvin's heat calculations were wrong, Darwin was vindicated. Likewise, when molecular biololgy began to show how the cell developed, the arguments of IDers began to fall, one by one.

His own writings confirm no bias on Darwin’s part. “A fair result can be obtained only by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question.†(Darwin)

See above. That's what Darwin did. And he was vindicated, as later Darwinists were vindicated, when the irreducibly complexity issue collapsed.

Highly respected scientists are swaying in either direction of this debate, Stephen C. Meyer is a Doctor of Philosophy at Cambridge University, UK.

Meyer has a PhD in History and Philosophy. Understandably, he has made some egregious errors in his writings on biology. I probably wouldn't be very reliable a source on philosophy, either.

In his article for the Telegraph newspaper in 2006, Intelligent Design is Not Creationism, he defends good science.

That would be like Fidel Castro defending good capitalism.

Today, a similar prejudice confronts ID. Equally, this new theory must also be evaluated on the basis of the evidence, not the philosophical preferences or prevailing ideologies.
We must follow the evidence, wherever it leads.

It's just a religion with a bad, bad case of science envy.



Thanks for reading...
 
But the religious doctrines of ID don't qualify as a theories.
What religious doctrines are those? I haven't heard...

It's just a religion with a bad, bad case of science envy.
Intelligent Design is no more a religion than Atheism, calling it such makes no sense at all :shrug
 
Barbarian observes:
But the religious doctrines of ID don't qualify as a theories.

What religious doctrines are those? I haven't heard...

You weren't supposed to hear. They planned to keep their religious agenda to themselves. Unfortunately, they slipped up and sent a package to Kinko's to be copied that included the Wedge Document meant for "eyes only."

Governing Goals
* To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

They also seek to undermine churches whose principles do not fit those of creationists:

Mainline renewal movements begin to appropriate insights from design theory, and to repudiate theologies influenced by materialism
ibid

Of course, any Christians who think God used evolution to create things, are automatically re-classified as "materialists." But Rev. Moon's followers are considered to be orthodox Christians by ID.

The Unification Church of Myung Son Moon is now aligned with the ID theology; of of the main players in the ID faith is a minister in Moon's church.

Barbarian observes:
It's just a religion with a bad, bad case of science envy.

Intelligent Design is no more a religion than Atheism,

I don't know of any atheists seeking to establish religious doctrines, but there might be some, somewhere.

calling it such makes no sense at all :shrug

When the leaders of the faith think no one is listening, they admit it to themselves.
 
Where are the citations for that site? It is nothing more than an article without sources. Don't you know that if that were true it would have been all over the news? If evolutionists can prove that there are holes in ID that are bigger than evolutions then all will be well with them, but this doesn't even do that, it's more like an ad hominem attack on the theorists and has nothing to do with answering the questions posed by ID.
 
Where are the citations for that site?

The link is to the Discovery Institute, the guys who invented ID and who wrote the Wedge document.

It is nothing more than an article without sources.

They wrote it. They should know what it says. Here's some more on how they accidentally let it get out:

Drafted in 1998 by Discovery Institute staff, the Wedge Document first appeared publicly after it was posted to the World Wide Web on February 5, 1999 by Tim Rhodes,[18] having been shared with him in late January 1999 by Matt Duss, a part-time employee of a Seattle-based international human-resources firm. There Duss had been given a document to copy titled The Wedge and marked "Top Secret" and "Not For Distribution."[19]

Though Discovery Institute co-founder and CSC Vice President Stephen C. Meyer eventually acknowledged the institute is the source of the document,[20][21] the institute still seeks to downplay its significance, saying "Conspircay [sic] theorists in the media continue to recycle the urban legend of the 'Wedge' document"[22] and portraying the scientific community's reaction to the Wedge document as driven by "Darwinist Paranoia."[23] Despite insisting that intelligent design is not a form of creationism, the artwork chosen by the Discovery Institute for the Wedge Document's original cover is Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam, depicting God reaching out to impart life from his finger into Adam. Meyer once also claimed the Wedge Document was stolen from the Discovery Institute's offices.[20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

Don't you know that if that were true it would have been all over the news?

Do a search on "Wedge Document." It got a lot of play when people realized what IDers were really up to.

If evolutionists can prove that there are holes in ID that are bigger than evolutions

What do you think the holes in evolution are?

then all will be well with them, but this doesn't even do that, it's more like an ad hominem attack on the theorists and has nothing to do with answering the questions posed by ID.

It merely demonstrates that ID is an unorthodox religion, not a scientific theory. What scientific questions do you think are posed by ID?
 
I would say that you have succinctly placed your words on target Caromurp...

an ad hominem attack on the theorists and has nothing to do with answering the questions posed by ID

But the fact is still true that the man who slings mud at another, simply loses the ground beneath him. :shrug

Flaming an idea or those who purport it, without evidence, is SO NOT scientific. :nono Also, let me add that Wiki is one of the LEAST recognised sources of solid information within scientific OR academic circles... :yes

Just a few pennies to the pot here... :twocents bonnie
 
Anyone out there want to answer the questions? Is it just me, or are we getting more drive-by posts lately?
 
I don't see it in any way as an infringement of rights. If a teacher stands up and says, 'This is science class. Mainstream science uses the theory of evolution to account for the species we see around us today... etc etc etc.' And they then receive a test that says, 'Science Test. 1. Describe the theory of evolution.' There is nothing wrong with that. You can believe whatever you want, and still answer questions about the scientific theory of evolution. At my public high school we spent 4 months learning about Christianity. I answered test questions that had me define creationism and the arguments used to promote it. I did not feel that infringed my right to be an atheist.

A good Christian parent should be able to help their child understand that science class may require them to memorize and understand the principles of science, but no one can force them to believe it.
 
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