[_ Old Earth _] Evolutionism denies the fall.

[civilwarbuff]

Massive plagarism here:

People seem to have a great deal of difficulty grasping the fact that the Bible is the word of God

At least for Christians it is.....

The literature of Genesis is exactly what would be expected to be written by people in that culture at that time.
To approach it as the transcript of the video taped documentary of the creation is beyond absurd.

So let's boil this down....
1. God lied to Moses and that is not how man was created.
2. Moses did not write down what God told him and instead made it all up, therefore lying to God and the Jews.
3. God and Moses colluded to deceive the Jews (and all mankind).
4. What is written in Genesis is true.
5. God and Moses never spoke and therefore the entire bible is a lie.
I think believing Christians would go with Door #4 and not write off Genesis as nothing more than "literature".

 

[Cygnus]

Is genesis the transcript of the video tape that the angels took?
No.

The angels did shout and sing for joy astray watched the creation....as far as a transcript goes....it is the Word of God...a transcript of what happened....but the evolution-camp can't accept the truth as they scrube the Bible against mans fallible science.

 

[Cygnus]

Massive plagarism here:

At least for Christians it is.....

So let's boil this down....
1. God lied to Moses and that is not how man was created.
2. Moses did not write down what God told him and instead made it all up, therefore lying to God and the Jews.
3. God and Moses colluded to deceive the Jews (and all mankind).
4. What is written in Genesis is true.
5. God and Moses never spoke and therefore the entire bible is a lie.
I think believing Christians would go with Door #4 and not write off Genesis as nothing more than "literature".

It's amazing just how much of the Bible. needs to be changed to try to make it square with evolutionism

 

[Silmarien]

Are you able to point them out with scripture? Thanks.

Things I think he was wrong about? Precisely this sort of stuff, actually, especially since I end up scratching my head at the inconsistency. Paul is shockingly egalitarian about 90% of the time, and then all you ever hear about is the couple times he says something uglier about women. Despite the fact that he's sending deaconesses around, constantly sending his regards to both Aquila and Priscilla instead of just Aquila, specifying mutual submission in a highly patriarchal culture, and so forth and so on. I don't really care for a hermeneutic approach that focuses on the couple times he seemed to let his misogynistic culture seep back in at the expense of everything else. Especially since all the letters were to specific communities with specific needs and challenges, so I'm not certain that generalizing from them is always the best idea.

I'll need to take a serious look at inerrancy at some point with a church that actually subscribes to it, but it's not a concept that's terribly useful for me right now.

Considering you're not a christian....

Baby Christian, but decidedly Anglo-Orthodox in approach and theology, so the benchmarks are different and I think I'd confuse people more if I changed my status. Nothing I've said is out of line with what you could expect from a Mainline church, though. And the allegorical stuff is pure Eastern Orthodoxy. School of Alexandria!

 

[Silmarien]

Massive plagarism here:

At least for Christians it is.....

So let's boil this down....
1. God lied to Moses and that is not how man was created.
2. Moses did not write down what God told him and instead made it all up, therefore lying to God and the Jews.
3. God and Moses colluded to deceive the Jews (and all mankind).
4. What is written in Genesis is true.
5. God and Moses never spoke and therefore the entire bible is a lie.
I think believing Christians would go with Door #4 and not write off Genesis as nothing more than "literature".

What do you think would happen if someone with a high school education walked into a post graduate level class on astrophysics?

Now imagine God explaining the creation of the universe to someone in the Bronze Age.

I also have no idea how #5 makes the entire Bible a lie. It's not as if the whole thing dropped out of the sky at one time and hit Muhammed on the head, lol. The authorship of and history behind the Torah have nothing whatsoever to do with the reliability of the New Testament documents.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I also have no idea how #5 makes the entire Bible a lie. It's not as if the whole thing dropped out of the sky at one time and hit Muhammed on the head, lol. The authorship of and history behind the Torah have nothing whatsoever to do with the reliability of the New Testament documents.

If any part of the Bible is a lie, then the entire Bible is in doubt....as a 'baby Christian' you need to understand that.......

What do you think would happen if someone with a high school education walked into a post graduate level class on astrophysics?

So, are you saying you should lie to the person with the HS diploma in order to convince them of your teaching? A lie is still a lie regardless of the reason for it. Why should we trust a "god" who would lie to us?

Now imagine God explaining the creation of the universe to someone in the Bronze Age.

See previous statement.....

 

[Eugene]

all you ever hear about is the couple times he says something uglier about women.

I do find an instance where Paul gave his opinion instead of commandment, but does this make his testimony wrong?

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Dealing with women Paul gave instruction concerning some in Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also.

And Paul goes on in the sixteenth chapter of Romans saluting many.
Another question I have for you is why are we instructed to follow Paul as he followed Christ? 1 Cor 11:1.

 

[Silmarien]

That's precisely what I mean! He's very positive towards women except in a couple of passages, and then Christianity as an institution spends the better part of two millennia systematically oppressing them because of a couple of quotes that don't line up! It's infuriating! And then everyone associates Paul with misogyny! (Or at least everyone in liberal circles. Lots of knee jerk negative reactions to him.)

 

[Silmarien]

If any part of the Bible is a lie, then the entire Bible is in doubt....as a 'baby Christian' you need to understand that.......

That is one approach. It's unfortunately also an approach that leads to people losing faith for utterly absurd reasons.

So, are you saying you should lie to the person with the HS diploma in order to convince them of your teaching? A lie is still a lie regardless of the reason for it. Why should we trust a "god" who would lie to us?

See previous statement.....

I'm not sure why you think that telling a story to explain something is a lie. Is teaching a child morality through fables lying to them?

I'm also not sure why you think something being incorrect makes it a lie. If there's intentionally false information in the Bible, that could be a problem, but it's not like every incorrect scientific hypothesis was a vicious lie to undermine human understanding.

You're using the word "lie" in wildly inappropriate and anachronistic ways to describe situations it doesn't apply to at all. You do realize that Saint Augustine thought all of Creation was brought into existence in an instant and God simply explained matters in a way that they could take a lesson away from it? There's nothing modern or postmodern about not taking Genesis literally. It's as old as Christianity and actually kind of older.

 

[Eugene]

That's precisely what I mean! He's very positive towards women except in a couple of passages

If Paul is preaching the revealed gospel of our risen LORD, what should he say?
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me . . . to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

I asked in another post why we were told to follow Paul as he followed Christ in 1 Cor 11:1, and we read because the gospel he preached will be what we are to be judged by. Rom 2:16.

Yes, by faith I can trust that Paul’s message was the fulfilled word of God to us which believe. Col 1:25.

 

[civilwarbuff]

That is one approach. It's unfortunately also an approach that leads to people losing faith for utterly absurd reasons.

So, you are OK with following a god who will lie to you? Good luck with that.

 

[Barbarian]

Just a thought:

The Bible wasn't written to be gone over like a lawyer looking for loopholes in a tax code. Legalism is the enemy of spirituality. That's what Jesus kept saying to the Pharisees.

Instead of trying to wiggle the words around to your liking, just listen to what Jesus has to say.

And then do it. Theology will not save you. Following and imitating Jesus will.

 

[Edward]

Just a thought:

The Bible wasn't written to be gone over like a lawyer looking for loopholes in a tax code. Legalism is the enemy of spirituality. That's what Jesus kept saying to the Pharisees.

Instead of trying to wiggle the words around to your liking, just listen to what Jesus has to say.

And then do it. Theology will not save you. Following and imitating Jesus will.

There you go. Truer words have never been spoken. Intellectualizing the word of God is by no means any way to any sort of understanding. Spiritual matters must be spiritually discerned, period. Man can not understand anything spiritual for it would be foolishness to him. Lean not upon your own understanding...

 

[Edward]

There's nothing modern or postmodern about not taking Genesis literally. It's as old as Christianity and actually kind of older.

Only after I began reading Genesis literally did my understanding of many other scriptures become more clear. Genesis is history, and not some metaphorical fable concocted to teach us a lesson but only after having dissected and far reaching intwisterations of it. The Lords Gospel is simple. God is not the author of confusion. God means what He says, and says what He means. Simple as that.

 

[Barbarian]

It's significant that the Bible begins and ends with allegorical lessons for us, and in between are numerous texts showing how God actually wants us to live and serve Him and each other.

I don't see any possibility of making Genesis or Revelation into literal histories.

 

[Barbarian]

So, you are OK with following a god who will lie to you? Good luck with that.

If an argument depends on misrepresenting what the other has said, isn't that a clue as to how sound it is?

 

[Edward]

It's significant that the Bible begins and ends with allegorical lessons for us, and in between are numerous texts showing how God actually wants us to live and serve Him and each other.

I don't see any possibility of making Genesis or Revelation into literal histories.

That doesn't make sense man. So Genesis is a big allegorical mess of confusion that needs an 8 page treatise to explain what it really means, rather than what God just simply said?> God is not the author of confusion.

BTW, what is the allegorical meaning of Genesis, since you claim that it is?

 

[Edward]

I don't see any possibility of making Genesis or Revelation into literal histories.

That's because you're over-educated, Brother. IMO, you're hanging on to your worldly knowledge, probably in an effort to be able to not feel like it was a waste of time and money. The reality is, spiritual matters are spiritually discerned, and intellectual knowledge has no part in the race to find and be one with God and His Kingdom.

It almost has to be pride for one to cling so tightly to worldly education. We need to (and are instructed to!) lay aside the worldly knowledge and become as a little child to be able to receive of the mysteries and knowledge of the Kingdom of God...through His Holy Spirit.

 

[Cygnus]

He's very positive towards women except in a couple of passages

Such as?????

 

[Barbarian]

That doesn't make sense man. So Genesis is a big allegorical mess of confusion that needs an 8 page treatise to explain what it really means, rather than what God just simply said?

Not at all. God's message is very simple and easy to understand. God made us to be happy with Him. We disobeyed Him and brought all sorts of trouble upon ourselves. The confusion comes in, when we try to make it into some kind of a science text. No complex thinking required. Just don't add anything that isn't there.

BTW, what is the allegorical meaning of Genesis, since you claim that it is?

See above. If deeper theology is your thing, you might want to read Genesi Ad Litteram, written by Augustine about 450 AD.

Aurelius Augustinus (354–430) is often simply referred to as St. Augustine or Augustine Bishop of Hippo (the ancient name of the modern city of Annaba in Algeria). He is the preeminent Doctor of the Church according to Roman Catholicism, and is considered by Evangelical Protestants to be in the tradition of the Apostle Paul as the theological fountainhead of the Reformation teaching on salvation and grace.