Bible Study Exodus 4:22

[jasoncran]

preach it jeff,:D read that torah like a good hebrew should.

 

[Fedusenko]

Was not this the Rock (Christ) that followed them?

This is what I believe, pre-carnate at least. That is also part of the basis that I make my hypothesis. Steve makes the assertion that the bridegroom is Moses, but I bend towards Jesus because of his sacrifice of blood unites us with Him.

I'm not an engligh major, but we can be certain that Moses was at the inn.

How can we be certain that he was with Zipporah in this moment? We see that the first time God speaks with Moses it is in privacy. At Mt. Sinai it is also in privacy. I don't imagine that it is far fetched that He would continue the same trend. Moses might have been in there, might not have, but remember you made a good point in that Moses mounted his sons. I said that the hebrew word can mean singular or plural, but you pointed out that in 2:22 he had a son Gershome. Gershome could have been the 'him' in the tent. Moses could have been the 'him'. We just don't know.

I would settle on Gershome being the 'him' because the previous passage Exodus 4:23 has God quoting Himself and continuing to add the consequence:

"Let my son go, that he may worship me," yet you refuse to let him go. Now I will slay your first-born son."

Then directly afterwards we have a passage that shows God seeking to kill 'him'. It seems to be a direct correlation to me. Moses could be there and have this mean the same thing still.

God is very patient with Moses. He gives him 'magic' to convince Pharaoh. He talks with Moses and tells Moses that He is capable of all things and will be with him and even gives Moses the words to say. God coddles Moses this whole time, but there seems to be an abrupt change in God's character towards Moses if we assume that He sought to kill Moses for a lack of circumcision.

I agree with you that Moses had 2 sons. Originally, I could not say that 2 sons accompanied him until you pointed out in 2:22 that he had Gershome after they were married and roughly 40 years passed. I submit to that being accurate. I also agree that he was circumcised, maybe not as timely as YHWH had instructed (I read in one commentary that the Midianites practiced circumcision as a rite of passage around puberty, but I can not confirm nor deny this). I think we can agree that Eliezer was the only one not circumcised (otherwise 2 circumcisions would be needed as you stated) and that was the basis of God's anger.

Now, you referenced Ezekiel 18:20 that the child shall not be punished for the iniquity of the father.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Yet the son of each household that does not have the Passover sacrifice on their door is punished. Here is a site talking specifically about this particular subject and it's seemingly abundant contradictions throughout the bible. It is an interesting read.

But then again, Genesis 17:14 says:

14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

It is possible that only Gershome was born (and aged by a few decades) and Eliezer had not been born. Remember, KJV says that Moses mounted his wife and sons, but the Hebrew word for son is both singular and plural. It could be a mistake through translation based on assumption they were both born, it might be accurate. We don't know. Sarah, Abraham's wife traveled while pregnant, why is this any different. Anyways, Moses was in Eqypt for a long while. There is plenty of time for gestation of Eliezer even if conception happened just before Moses sent Zipporah back.

I think you've got your details a little awry. Scripture says,
Joshua 5:3-5 [they were all circumcised when they left Egypt]

You are right and thank you for the correction. I misinterpreted what you said as some who left Egypt may not have been circumcised and assumed the statement was correct. The rest was a postulation based off that, though I didn't mean Pharaoh followed them after the Red Sea, but through the desert to the Red Sea. I assumed that there was some desert land between Eqypt and the Red Sea. Yes, Amalek tried to attack them afterwards and God, though Moses' staff raised in the air, swayed the battle.

I am not twisting the story to fit my idea. I am noting what is not specified in scripture. Moses is not named in the specific passage except in some translations (which makes it mistranslations even if Moses was indeed there). Eleizer was not mentioned until after Moses' return. The Hebrew word for son can be singular OR plural OR mean both male and female children collectively. We don't know who the pubis marked or was thrown at. Finally, we don't know Zipporah's stance on circumcision or YHWH for that matter. Remember, Jethro only claimed YHWH to be the greatest of all gods. Does this mean that he adhered to other gods previously as a preist of the Midianites? Note also that while Jethro ate bread with Moses after making sacrifices, it says nothing of Zipporah. It mentions elders which can include old women according to Strong's concordance.

Oh wow, so much typed and not done..... or maybe I am.

 

[Fedusenko]

Wait, I am not! Thanks reba for your encouragment. Also, I appreciate your comments, Stovebolts. It forces me to re-examine the scripture and my hypothesis.

 

[jasoncran]

fedunsko keep in mind that i recommend stovebolts as he spent one year teaching and studying the book of exodus, and he still didnt know it all.

its a deep book far more then we often think.

 

[stovebolts]

Fed,

I am enjoying this thread. But then again, I do enjoy Exodus! You have put a lot out on the table and I believe I understand where you are coming from.

Do me a favor would you? Give me your cliff notes version as I have given you from the time of Mt. Sinia to the second son of Moses.

I will try to give you a quote by quote reply on Monday. It's been a busy day and I know it will take me a good 30 minutes or so to reply. Honestly, I just feel like chillen if you know what I mean.

Jason,
Not to side track the thread, but I put jace with the Elites today... He lost his first two matches which put him out of the tournament. He was winning the second match until 25 seconds to the end. I'll post the youtube video. He pulled his rotator cuff and some neck muscles and was screaming bloody murder on the mat, but refused to let the kid pin him even with me yelling at him to let the kid have the pin.. He's too tough for his own britches I'm telling you.

Probably shouldn't have said that.. Me and Jason are the masters at squirrling a thread lol!

See you guys monday. Jason, l'll send you a link.

 

[jasoncran]

you should caution him on what a torn rotator cuff will do. forget wrestling or doing any sport that may involve use of that arm.

you can strengthen and keep it from reinjury but some loss of range is going to occur, twelve is too young to let that happen.

sorry that he lost.but hey he can submit you but not me.

man he should join an mma gym.he would be deadly with that stuff added to his talents.

 

[Fedusenko]

Yes, it is a lot to take in. I have spent a few months on this with the help of others so I don't I expect someone to grasp it from the get-go. You asked for Cliff Notes... I tried to make it short, but complete. Maybe that is an oxymoron.

Hypothesis:
1. The circumcision is a shadow of the Passover offering.
2. Part of the circumcision ritual that has been lost is hinted at in scripture.
3. The Circumcision and the Passover offering are shadows of the name of Christ on His thigh.

Evidence:
1. The circumcision is the first covenant of YHWH. It is also the first sign of YHWH on His people.

2. Abraham sends his servant to find a wife, Rebecca, for Abraham's son. They make a very peculiar oath at Genesis 24:9,

"And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and sware to him concerning that matter."

Clark believes this to be a euphemism for touching the circumcised penis, but I believe this might be an oath on the 'name' of the Messiah in Revelation.

3. Moses is weened by his Israelite mother and thus circumcised, but raised Egyptian, though he had Israelite interests. He marries into a pagan family, though it is clear Jethro worships YHWH to some extent by passage Exodus 18:11. It is unclear how much reverence Zipporah has for YHWH. Consider that Jethro, a prince or priest, should be able to hire men to watch the herd, but has his daughters do it instead. Also, his daughters are roughed up by other men at the well for unknown reasons. There is an enclave between Jethro's family and the rest of the community and Zipporah may hold spite for it.

4. Moses and Zipporah have Gershome. It is possible that Gershome may not be circumcised as Moses was raised Egyptian and married into a non-Israelite family.

5. The Hebrew word for sons in Exodus 4:20 can be singular, plural, or both male and female children collectively. Eleizer may or may not have been born. There is nothing that we can use to definately pinpoint his birth before Exodus 4:24. It is very possible that conception happened before or during the journey with gestation and birth while Moses was in Egypt.

6. The passage, "cut off her son’s foreskin and touched [Moses] feet with it" may be a mistranslation and actually mean, "cut off her son's foreskin and marked [Gershome's] leg with it. The Hebrew word for touch has a variety of degrees of meanings including sexual intercourse, striking, marking, ect. The Hebrew word for feet has meaning that includes a step, journey, genitals, or leg.

7. The circumcision is a marriage covenant between YHWH and His people. This is why she is speaking to God when she is addressing the 'Bridegroom of Blood'. She effectively 'married' her son to YHWH. Her son is now chattel to God. The relationship in question is not her's and Moses', but her son's and YHWH's. Her son is the bride and YHWH is the Bridegroom.

8. God tells Moses he will kill the first born if Pharaoh does not let His son worship Him. The circumcision was the covenant that God's people would worship Him

Genesis 17:7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

and Moses failed to fulfill this covenant.

Genesis 17:14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

9. Exodus 12:12

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

10. Revelation 19:15-16

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

11. Isiah 63:3

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

clearly points to Revelations with his dipped vestures representing divine vengence. Some say that the mark on his thigh is actually a sword, but scripture states, "out of his mouth comes the sword." Since the mark on his thigh is contained in the same sentence as His bloody vestures, I believe they are made by the same material, blood. The dipped vestures are his divine vengence and the bloodied mark on his thigh is salvation.

 

[Elijah674]

Before moving into types and shadows my good Brother and friend, I think it best to relay the plain meaning of scripture first.

then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

That is to say, "My Bridegroom (Moses) would have been killed because he did not circumcise his son (Eliezer)".

I would ask that you meet me where I'm at and explain how this is a type of Christ.

Re: Exodus 4:22

Originally Posted by reba
This is an interesting read.... I hope it continues...




Exod. 4
[24] And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

[25] Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
[26] So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Was not this the Rock (Christ) that followed them?​

Reply With Quote

OK: StoveBolts, the above verse has it the Lord meeting Moses. And the Rock is identified as Christ as I see it in 1 Cor, 10:1-4

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and [that Rock was Christ].

 

[stovebolts]

OK: StoveBolts, the above verse has it the Lord meeting Moses. And the Rock is identified as Christ as I see it in 1 Cor, 10:1-4

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and [that Rock was Christ].

Hey Brother!

I always linked the spiritual meat with the Manna and the water flowing from the rock with Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

I believe the water flowed about 80 miles if memory serves me (but you can check, I could be wrong) from that rock to where Israel was camped.

And what happened after the waters flowed from the rock? Exodus 17:8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. and Jason will understand this.

 

[stovebolts]

3. He marries into a pagan family

I don't know that I would say pagan. The Medianites did come from Abrham as well.
Genesis 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
Genesis 25:2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

4. Moses and Zipporah have Gershome. It is possible that Gershome may not be circumcised as Moses was raised Egyptian and married into a non-Israelite family.

This is highly unlikey.
Exodus 2:8-10 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother. And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed it. And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
Now read the next verse.
Exodus 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

Moses was raised in an Egyptian setting as a Prince (Acts 7:22), but his roots were Hebrew. Another thing to consider is how long was Moses nursed which raises the question, is it possible that Moses speech impediment was caused by years of nursing? What mother wouldn't try to keep their child for as long as she could? And nursing would be a great way to achieve that purpose.

This brings me to a point. Where did Acts 7:22 get it's information from? Certainly you will not find anything to support that claim in the writings of Moses.

5. The Hebrew word for sons in Exodus 4:20 can be singular, plural, or both male and female children collectively. Eleizer may or may not have been born. There is nothing that we can use to definately pinpoint his birth before Exodus 4:24. It is very possible that conception happened before or during the journey with gestation and birth while Moses was in Egypt.

I understand your take on sons. However, based on the name of Eleizer, scripture links Eliezer with Egyptian exodus.
Exodus 18:4 And the name of the other was Eliezer; for the God of my father, said he, was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh:

We have already reasonably established that Gershom would have been circumcised. Thus, it is reasonable to say that Eliezer was born on the way to Egypt, yet on the 8th Day Moses did not circumsize him resulting in God's wrath bringing us to the very event we are speaking about.

7. The circumcision is a marriage covenant between YHWH and His people. This is why she is speaking to God when she is addressing the 'Bridegroom of Blood'. She effectively 'married' her son to YHWH. Her son is now chattel to God. The relationship in question is not her's and Moses', but her son's and YHWH's. Her son is the bride and YHWH is the Bridegroom.

While I agree that circumcision could be looked at as a marriage covenant between YHVH and his people, I would state that this would be the very reason for God to be angry with Moses for not having Eleizer circumsized and shows us that we cannot break God's commandments even when we are assigned a task. I submit that Moses reasoned that the circumcision of Eleizer could wait till his return.

I also think that the KJV got it's translation right.
Exodus 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

His feet would have been the feet of her husband. Her husband was Moses, and becaue of circumcision, she almost lost him. Thus, a bloody husband.

8. God tells Moses he will kill the first born if Pharaoh does not let His son worship Him. The circumcision was the covenant that God's people would worship Him

Exodus 4:22 And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

I believe that circumcision represented God's promise to Abraham that Abraham would be the father of many nations, and that his decendants would be greater than the stars in the sky or the sand at the seashore.

 

[Elijah674]

Hey Brother!

I always linked the spiritual meat with the Manna and the water flowing from the rock with Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

I believe the water flowed about 80 miles if memory serves me (but you can check, I could be wrong) from that rock to where Israel was camped.

And what happened after the waters flowed from the rock? Exodus 17:8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. and Jason will understand this.

Exod. 4:22 asks no questions? so am left guessing?? I see two subjects bound together there! ....
[20] And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.
[21] And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
[22] And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
[23] And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
[24] And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
[25] Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
[26] So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

No problem with that of your postings. But it was Christ who warned 'mankind' that even Moses would not be accepted in the disobedience of His requirements. (without repentance) And Moses accepted this requirement!;)

And circumcism represented what? (as 'i' see it)

Rom. 2
[21] Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
[22] Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
[23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
[24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

--Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

i see it now Brother!
,thanks!

 

[Sinthesis]

i see it now Brother!
,thanks!

Would you translate please? I'm not sure what Elijah674 is saying, but I suspect it is similar to the train of thought I've been pondering on the subject.

 

[Fedusenko]

Elijah674
Don't forget Romans 4

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

It is important that you read 'the sign of circumcision' because that is exactly what it was, an identification. The same is true for sign in Hebrew. The circumcision, like the Passover offering, was a sign of whom His people are, just as it is a sign for whom is our master. As I understand it, the circumcision is the cattle branding (for lack a better word) of God's people.

 

[stovebolts]

Would you translate please? I'm not sure what Elijah674 is saying, but I suspect it is similar to the train of thought I've been pondering on the subject.

HI,
The way I read it..

We see the first time in history where God claims a nation as his own and calling that nation his Son. Exodus 4:22, Psalm 80:17

Circumcision was a requirement for God's Son

Moses did not keep that requirement with his own son and became disobedient. (What is the requirement of an Elder? (1 Timothy 3:5))

Circumcision is both physical (Genesis 17:11) as well as a matter of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16 and 30:6 ).

You can't separate the physical from the spiritual.

 

[Elijah674]

HI,
The way I read it..

We see the first time in history where God claims a nation as his own and calling that nation his Son. Exodus 4:22, Psalm 80:17

Circumcision was a requirement for God's Son

Moses did not keep that requirement with his own son and became disobedient. (What is the requirement of an Elder? (1 Timothy 3:5))

Circumcision is both physical (Genesis 17:11) as well as a matter of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16 and 30:6 ).

You can't separate the physical from the spiritual.

Good POSTING! [One REQUIRED] OBEDIENT BOOK. (for MANKIND!;))

Gen. 26 2-5 is often overlooked as for why Abe was called in the [FIRST PLACE.]

Gen. 26
[2] And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

(Long Long before any 'pedigreed' Jew came forth there WAS ISRAEL! Even note the Gentile converts in Gen. 12 that Abe had won with the Rev. 14:6 ETERNAL GOSPEL!;))

--Elijah

 

[Broncobilly1972]

One of the first things I thought of was a new testament verse

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8 KJV)

Could Moses having forgotten to take care of his own house first, is there anything in the law, later given by Moses, but setup from the beginning, about this?

We know these things happened and were written for our admonition.

 

[reba]

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Right Reba, what I get from it is that Moses ran out to get Gods work done so quickly, that he forgot the circumcision that needed to be done in his own house first. Today, we do the same, forgetting the spiritual circumcision of the heart.

 

[stovebolts]

i wouldn't say he forgot. No, it was by way of reason he neglected that which he knew.