Bible Study Faith in Christ

[for_his_glory]

So there are obedient works in order to initially receive eternal life (belief, repentance, confession and baptism) and obedient works to remain in God's saving grace (good works, faithful unto death - Ephesian 2:10; Revelation 2:10).

All of these obedient works are just necessary conditions God has put upon HIs free gift of grace and do not earn it in anyway.

I do not see belief, repentance, confession and baptism as being works as these are necessary requirements of salvation. When I think of works it is the continued works of the Lord like that of Matthew 25:31-40 as being obedient to His commands. We are obedient unto salvation by faith in Christ as we obedient to His commands.

Faith alone and grace alone means that God loves, forgives and saves us, not because of who we are or what we do, but because of the atoning work of Christ apart from individual works. Our best efforts can never be enough to earn salvation. God declares us righteous for Christ's sake. We receive that grace through faith alone. We are not saved by a list of do's and don'ts, but by grace through faith in Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree but I believe you're reading John 6:27-29 differently than what may be meant.
Verse 28 is asking what they must do to satisfy God...
Verse 29 says to believe in the One whom God has sent.

Is this how you understand verse 28?

I don't understand how you think believing could be a work....
faith is free...THEN come the good deeds.
We just have to believe.

In the context, Jesus has just fed a multitude of people. Later these people come to Jesus (John 6:26) and Jesus tells them (not-but elliptical statement) to put more emphasis working for spiritual food than the physical food. (v27)

John 6:27 Jesus said to work for the meat that endure into everlasting life. Out of Jesus own mouth He says work is necessary to having everlasting life and in this context the work Jesus gives the people is the work of believing.

John 6:28 " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "
The people ask Jesus what work (from v27) He wanted them to do. And the work Jesus gave them to do that is unto everlasting life is "you believe" v29.

---------------------------------------

The reason of me bringing this verse up is that it shows everlasting is a free gift that Jesus 'gives'. Though it is a free gift, it is a CONDITIONAL free gift one must work to meet the condition with the condition here being believing. )Jesus did not say 'believe only.)

"Believe", as used here in John 6:28 and John 3:16 and other some other verses, is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where 'believe' includes the obedient work of repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16).
Belief, without the obedience or repentance confession and baptism, is dead being alone.
Again, when they asked Jesus 'what shall we do' (John 6:28; cf Acts 2:38; Acts 16:30) they were not told by Jesus to 'do nothing for you are already saved' but given and obedient work to do.

 

[PeterJens]

Being saved is CONDITIONAL upon man's continued obedience to God's will. Therefore Noah's house would would have been saved only IF Noah built the ark. There is no way Noah's house would have still been saved anyway had he rebelled and disobeyed God in not building the ark. Not building the ark would have been unrighteousness on the part of Noah. Therefore the salvation of Noah's house was not in anyway UNconditional regardless what Noah did.

What we can learn from Noah is;
--God's grace, when it comes to salvation, has always been conditional in both the OT and NT
--God has made obedience to His will a condition to receiving His grace therefore obedience does not earn grace.
--out of many, many examples from both the OT and NT of people being obedient to God's will, nowhere ever is obedience said to earn God's grace but instead is a CONDITION God Himself requires to receive His grace.
--this does not fit Luther's 'faith only' but that does not matter since Christ never taught salvation by faith only.

In my opinion this is one of, if not the most, important topics that could be discussed/debated on a religious forum as this one.

Obedience is the fruit of knowing the light, reality, the source of love and the bringing of death through sin.

As a kid I did not want to fight in school with other boys, because I did not want to hurt them, no matter how much they hurt me. I would fight to stop the fighting.

Our hearts drive our behaviour, and often the traumas and distortions of early childhood mould how far we will go or not, as the case may be.

A disobedient life indicates a lack of faith and understanding, caught in sinfulnesses deception and delusions, as if the fruit of such behaviour has any ultimate value.

It is weird but when people studied drug pushers, they earnt less than working in Macdonalds and it often cost them their lives. The image of hope for the future and status where their is no love are powerful drivers of desperation that lead to destruction so quickly.

Financial wealth is not wealth of the heart, and often just leads to more greed and envy, when the status and respect are just not enough. Only love and Jesus makes us consistent and real in all our relationships, and upon which others can depend. God bless you

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have always believed that obeying and doing comes after we believe.
To DO before we believe is a work and is not accepted because there is no faith.
Doing good deeds is what is expected of us after we believe.

Jesus said REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND.
Is repenting a work?

An UNbeliever would not repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) to be baptized (Mark 16:16). An unbeliever would may not even know what the Bible teaches and not even know he needs to believe, repent, confess and be baptized. So belief is not only a prerequisite to these things but includes these things.

Yes, repentance is a work just like faith is a work.

Mark 2:5 says Jesus 'saw their faith'. What Jesus saw that is called faith is the work those men did in removing the roof and lower the sick man down to Him

Matthew 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah. And turning to Johan 3:10 it says " And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. "

Both both faith and repentance are works and in verses cited above they are works that can be seen. NT faith therefore is not just a mental assent of the mind or just acknowledging certain facts about Christ but faith is doing, it's putting into action what Jesus said to do...Luke 6:46 " And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? " Matthew 7:21 the ones who enter the kingdom will be the ones that "doeth the will of My Father"

The fact that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting the conditions do not earn the free gift does not sit well with Martin Luther's 'faith only'.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I do not see belief, repentance, confession and baptism as being works as these are necessary requirements of salvation. When I think of works it is the continued works of the Lord like that of Matthew 25:31-40 as being obedient to His commands. We are obedient unto salvation by faith in Christ as we obedient to His commands.

Belief repentance confession and submitting to baptism are obedience, something done.

Faith alone and grace alone means that God loves, forgives and saves us, not because of who we are or what we do, but because of the atoning work of Christ apart from individual works. Our best efforts can never be enough to earn salvation. God declares us righteous for Christ's sake. We receive that grace through faith alone. We are not saved by a list of do's and don'ts, but by grace through faith in Christ.

Faith alone and grace alone is actually contradictory. The word 'alone' is an exclusionary word. Therefore if salvation were by 'faith alone' then that excludes everything else from salvation including grace. On the other hand if salvation were by 'grace alone' then that excludes everything else from salvation including faith.

If Faith and Grace were the name of two women, could I be married to both "Grace alone" and "Faith alone" at the same time? Not, not possible. Salvation takes both God's grace and man's faith together, not either one alone by itself.

James 2 refutes faith alone. Belief alone, that is, belief void of repentance confession and baptism, would be dead, useless. Comparing John 3:16 to Luke 13:3 all the belief alone in the world world never save an impenitent person. Abraham's faith void of obedience in moving and offering Issac (Hebrews 11:8,17) would have made his faith dead, useless.

Romans 6 refutes 'grace alone'. Just because Christians are saved by grace does not give the Christian the right, the license to sin for Christians are those who are dead to sin, so not live in sin. Later in Romans 6:16 Paul points out we each are serving one of two masters, we are serving:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

If a person is not obeying he then is serving sin unto death. Since sin is transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), then the only solution to keep from sinning and being dead to sin is obedience to God's will. So even though the Christian is saved by grace he must still be obedient to keep from serving sin unto death/being lost.

Therefore salvation is by God's grace and man's obedience faith together.

The Bible gives man only two options:
1) eternally condemnation
2) eternal life in heaven

Paul put these two options in front of us in Romans 6:16
1) serving sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

If Martin Luther were alive today and participating on this forum and I asked him which master he serves, either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness, which would he say he serves?

(There is no third option as I have seen one person try and create on another forum)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Obedience is the fruit of knowing the light, reality, the source of love and the bringing of death through sin.

As a kid I did not want to fight in school with other boys, because I did not want to hurt them, no matter how much they hurt me. I would fight to stop the fighting.

Our hearts drive our behaviour, and often the traumas and distortions of early childhood mould how far we will go or not, as the case may be.

A disobedient life indicates a lack of faith and understanding, caught in sinfulnesses deception and delusions, as if the fruit of such behaviour has any ultimate value.

It is weird but when people studied drug pushers, they earnt less than working in Macdonalds and it often cost them their lives. The image of hope for the future and status where their is no love are powerful drivers of desperation that lead to destruction so quickly.

Financial wealth is not wealth of the heart, and often just leads to more greed and envy, when the status and respect are just not enough. Only love and Jesus makes us consistent and real in all our relationships, and upon which others can depend. God bless you

Luke 6:46 Obedience would be doing those things Christ said to do,

 

[for_his_glory]

In the context, Jesus has just fed a multitude of people. Later these people come to Jesus (John 6:26) and Jesus tells them (not-but elliptical statement) to put more emphasis working for spiritual food than the physical food. (v27)

John 6:27 Jesus said to work for the meat that endure into everlasting life. Out of Jesus own mouth He says work is necessary to having everlasting life and in this context the work Jesus gives the people is the work of believing.

John 6:28 " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "
The people ask Jesus what work (from v27) He wanted them to do. And the work Jesus gave them to do that is unto everlasting life is "you believe" v29.

---------------------------------------

The reason of me bringing this verse up is that it shows everlasting is a free gift that Jesus 'gives'. Though it is a free gift, it is a CONDITIONAL free gift one must work to meet the condition with the condition here being believing. )Jesus did not say 'believe only.)

"Believe", as used here in John 6:28 and John 3:16 and other some other verses, is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where 'believe' includes the obedient work of repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16).
Belief, without the obedience or repentance confession and baptism, is dead being alone.
Again, when they asked Jesus 'what shall we do' (John 6:28; cf Acts 2:38; Acts 16:30) they were not told by Jesus to 'do nothing for you are already saved' but given and obedient work to do.

I can't see it as a conditional free gift as it is freely given, but up to us to accept it by faith in Christ. Let's put it this way. Someone gives you a present for your birthday, does it come with a condition, yes, the condition is that it is your birthday in order to receive your gift, no works involved as it is only a requirement. The same with God's free gift of grace, the condition in which we receive it is by believing and accepting the gift. No works involved, just only believe and accept Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. From that point on the works we begin to do are the works of the Lord that He commanded us to do like that of Matthew 25:31-40.

There are five requirements to Salvation
1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

Christian Baptism
1. Commanded by Christ - Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16
2. Commanded by Peter - Acts 10:44-48
3. Commanded by Christian ministers - Acts 2:1, 41

 

[PeterJens]

Luke 6:46 Obedience would be doing those things Christ said to do,

We cannot do what we are not capable of doing. Until our hearts are healed and cleansed and purified we cannot love our enemies or our brothers.

It is not possible for a skydiver to parachute without a parachute. Equally we cannot love God without knowing Him, or know grace when all we feel is condemnation.

 

[for_his_glory]

James 2:14-26 James is not saying our works make us righteous before God, instead James is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Good works do not contribute to salvation, but they will always be characteristics of one who has been born again. Good works are not the cause of salvation, they are the evidence of it.

Salvation by works is a widely held traditional viewpoint, but not an accurate one Biblically.

By Grace Through Faith
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[for_his_glory]

If Martin Luther were alive today and participating on this forum and I asked him which master he serves, either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness, which would he say he serves?

Martin Luther didn't always get it right like so many do when interpreting scripture. We can't blame him or judge him as we all do at times, but need to be opened for correction. Luther made one critical mistake when he interpreted James 2. When we read James 2:14-26 and see certain words like "save" and "justify" we assume we know what they mean, based on what they mean in other places in the Bible.

This is called "illegitimate identity transfer" which occurs when an interpreter assumes that a given word in one context means the same thing it does in another.

Example: if you interpret Paul's use of the word flesh in Romans 8:5 to mean sinful nature and then you apply that meaning to his use of the same word in Colossians 1:22 then you would walk away with the faulty conclusion that Jesus Christ had a sinful body.

This is why we need to let scripture interpret itself within the full context of its meaning.

 

[marrea]

So even though the Christian is saved by grace he must still be obedient to keep from serving sin unto death/being lost.

I don't know if i missed any details debated here, but that's also how i interpret it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know if i missed any details debated here, but that's also how i interpret it.

FYI since you are new here we do not debate or argue the word of God, but only discuss with each other in order to let the unity of love flow within the forums. It also helps to go back and read through the threads, especially the OP, so you know what is being discussed. Please feel free to share with us.

 

[GodsGrace]

In the context, Jesus has just fed a multitude of people. Later these people come to Jesus (John 6:26) and Jesus tells them (not-but elliptical statement) to put more emphasis working for spiritual food than the physical food. (v27)

Agreed.

John 6:27 Jesus said to work for the meat that endure into everlasting life. Out of Jesus own mouth He says work is necessary to having everlasting life and in this context the work Jesus gives the people is the work of believing.

I read John 6:27 in 5 different versions.
I don't see anywhere where it states that the work is to believe.

WORK NOT FOR THE FOOD THAT PERISHES......physical and material goods.
BUT FOR THE FOOD WHICH ENDURES INTO EVERLASTING....WHICH THE SON OF MAN WILL GIVE TO YOU.....this is referring to spiritual food.

There is food for the body....
and there is food for the spirit.

John 6:28 " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "
The people ask Jesus what work (from v27) He wanted them to do. And the work Jesus gave them to do that is unto everlasting life is "you believe" v29.

OK. I see your point....
What they must do to please God is to believe in His Son.

I don't believe this is meant to be a WORK,,,but the phrase
WHAT MUST WE DO TO DO GOD'S WORK (NASB)
could be read
WHAT MUST WE DO TO PLEASE GOD
(the Living Bible)

which would take believing out of the realm of a work,,,,
but as the way to please God.

Could you consider this please?
I've never delved too much into these verses.


---------------------------------------

The reason of me bringing this verse up is that it shows everlasting is a free gift that Jesus 'gives'. Though it is a free gift, it is a CONDITIONAL free gift one must work to meet the condition with the condition here being believing. )Jesus did not say 'believe only.)

I agree that believing is the first step and that the gift is conditional --- otherwise everyone would be saved.

"Believe", as used here in John 6:28 and John 3:16 and other some other verses, is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where 'believe' includes the obedient work of repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16).
Belief, without the obedience or repentance confession and baptism, is dead being alone.
Again, when they asked Jesus 'what shall we do' (John 6:28; cf Acts 2:38; Acts 16:30) they were not told by Jesus to 'do nothing for you are already saved' but given and obedient work to do.

I agree with this too.
The word BELIEVE encompasses OBEDIENCE.

I agree with everything you've said,,,except I don't think that to believe is a work.
If this were so,,,then FAITH would be a work and Ephesians 2:8 would make no sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

An UNbeliever would not repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) to be baptized (Mark 16:16). An unbeliever would may not even know what the Bible teaches and not even know he needs to believe, repent, confess and be baptized. So belief is not only a prerequisite to these things but includes these things.

Yes, repentance is a work just like faith is a work.

Mark 2:5 says Jesus 'saw their faith'. What Jesus saw that is called faith is the work those men did in removing the roof and lower the sick man down to Him

Matthew 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah. And turning to Johan 3:10 it says " And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. "

Both both faith and repentance are works and in verses cited above they are works that can be seen. NT faith therefore is not just a mental assent of the mind or just acknowledging certain facts about Christ but faith is doing, it's putting into action what Jesus said to do...Luke 6:46 " And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? " Matthew 7:21 the ones who enter the kingdom will be the ones that "doeth the will of My Father"

The fact that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting the conditions do not earn the free gift does not sit well with Martin Luther's 'faith only'.

Trust me,,,I'm not a Faith Only person.
I have to look into this idea that believing is a work.
You make sense in your post....

 

[for_his_glory]

Condition is different than doing the works of the Lord as in Matthew 25:31-40.

Condition, not being a work, to faith in Christ is love. The works are "feed my sheep". John 21:15-17.

The condition of God's grace is His love for His creation, God's work of grace was giving His only begotten Son Christ Jesus that whosoever believes (condition of faith) in Him will have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are first created (Spiritually renewed) in Christ through faith/belief alone, not of works. We are God's artistry fashioned unto good works ordered by God that we then begin to walk in them after receiving His free gift of faith in Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I can't see it as a conditional free gift as it is freely given, but up to us to accept it by faith in Christ. Let's put it this way. Someone gives you a present for your birthday, does it come with a condition, yes, the condition is that it is your birthday in order to receive your gift, no works involved as it is only a requirement. The same with God's free gift of grace, the condition in which we receive it is by believing and accepting the gift. No works involved, just only believe and accept Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. From that point on the works we begin to do are the works of the Lord that He commanded us to do like that of Matthew 25:31-40.

There are five requirements to Salvation
1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

Christian Baptism
1. Commanded by Christ - Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:15, 16
2. Commanded by Peter - Acts 10:44-48
3. Commanded by Christian ministers - Acts 2:1, 41

Can one be saved without faith? No, therefore salvation is a free gift that comes with a condition: faith. Even though faith is a work it does not earn the free gift, it is just meeting the necessary condition.

===========

You have 'faith' third in your 5 requirements. Why would a faithless person confess or repent? How would an unbeliever even know he is lost or know anything about confession or repentance? Hebrews 11:6.

One must first hear the word of God Romans 10:17 in order to have faith. Romans 10:14 one cannot believe what they have not ever heard.

Upon hearing the word, one must believe what they have heard. John 8:24

Upon believing the word, one now knows he is lost in his sin and must now act on that belief by repenting, change turn from living a sinful life. Luke 13:3

Make the great confession of faith Matthew 10:32-33

Be water baptized where the blood of Christ washes away all sin then one rising to walk in newness of life Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3-5.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We cannot do what we are not capable of doing. Until our hearts are healed and cleansed and purified we cannot love our enemies or our brothers.

It is not possible for a skydiver to parachute without a parachute. Equally we cannot love God without knowing Him, or know grace when all we feel is condemnation.

Man is capable of understanding God's word and obeying. Throughout the BIble God has given commands to men, the command implies man's has both ability and responsibility to God's commands. Why give commands if man is not capable of obeying them?

(I do not believe in the idea of "total depravity).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

James 2:14-26 James is not saying our works make us righteous before God, instead James is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.

James clearly says that works justify. And faith alone, that is, faith without works is dead.

What kind of work is James talking about that justifies?

James 2;21 " Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what work?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The type of work that justifies is obedience to the will of God. Paul spoke of "obedience UNTO righteousness" and NOT obedience because one is already righteous.

Some have accused Paul and James of contradicting each other, but they do not.

James ------works (obedience)>>>>>>>>>justifies
Paul------obeyed from the heart>>>>>>>justified (free from sin)

Both are 100% agreement obedience to God's will justifies.

When Paul says works do not justify he is talking about the flawless work of law keeping required by the OT law.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Martin Luther didn't always get it right like so many do when interpreting scripture. We can't blame him or judge him as we all do at times, but need to be opened for correction. Luther made one critical mistake when he interpreted James 2. When we read James 2:14-26 and see certain words like "save" and "justify" we assume we know what they mean, based on what they mean in other places in the Bible.

This is called "illegitimate identity transfer" which occurs when an interpreter assumes that a given word in one context means the same thing it does in another.

Example: if you interpret Paul's use of the word flesh in Romans 8:5 to mean sinful nature and then you apply that meaning to his use of the same word in Colossians 1:22 then you would walk away with the faulty conclusion that Jesus Christ had a sinful body.

This is why we need to let scripture interpret itself within the full context of its meaning.

Again, Paul says we all serve one of two masters, we either serve;
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)
The Bible does not give man a third option.

Romans 6:16 would put Luther between a rock and a hard place. Of course he would say he is not serving sin unto death yet his faith only philosophy is the total opposite of "obedience unto righteousness".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't know if i missed any details debated here, but that's also how i interpret it.

Grace will not save the disobedient man who continues serving sin unto death.

Paul says each of us are serving either;
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness

On another forum, I saw one person try and get around this by creating a third option:
--disobedience unto righteousness.
When has doing wrong ever made one right?