Bible Study Faith or Works?

[thessalonian]

you are kind of like Thess (with all due respect). you are both "the sky is green" kind of fellows. No matter how hard one will try to convince you that the "sky is blue", you would never back down....

Ah, it's only soth and I that won't change our minds on this board. Glad you have identified the only two stubborn people on the board George. Don't recall you being a pillar of what we would call "openmindedness" either.

Having said that your comment is expected, not offensive to me, and has not changed my mind.
:-D

 

[John the Baptist]

Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.

That is an Ad Hominen argument. James says "show" me your faith which means that he wants you to justify yourself before him. God already knows everything and we don't have to justify ourselves before Him unless He is trying to rhetorically show us something. You can chuckle all you want but you lost a serious opportunity to reply with knowledge.

Didn't lose anything my friend....you hung yourself with your own words...as most posters probably will agree...

I'm still waiting for your argument. I have one waiting for you.

You won't get one....I choose to disengage...past experience tells me you won't change your opinion...so I won't bother....you are kind of like Thess (with all due respect). you are both "the sky is green" kind of fellows. No matter how hard one will try to convince you that the "sky is blue", you would never back down.... 8-)

So call it a cop out if you like...I choose not to engage.

John here:
Naw, there were a whole flood/full that God's Spirit while 'Striving' still could not reach in Genesis 6:3. And He says that there is No New Thing.
Why do you suppose that is? Try Titus 3:9-11? So who cares what some will call it? :wink:

 

[Dustin]

Faith Alone

I belive what it says in the bible. Faith alone. ;-)

 

[Georges]

you are kind of like Thess (with all due respect). you are both "the sky is green" kind of fellows. No matter how hard one will try to convince you that the "sky is blue", you would never back down....

Ah, it's only soth and I that won't change our minds on this board. Glad you have identified the only two stubborn people on the board George. Don't recall you being a pillar of what we would call "openmindedness" either.

Having said that your comment is expected, not offensive to me, and has not changed my mind.
:-D

Just a poke Thess to see if you were still out there.....of course I'm open minded...How do you think I ended up with my crazy theology....I was a Trinitarian (Lutheran Wisconsin Synod) most of my life...if anyone would have suggested anything else, I would have been spitting mad.

Having said that, my theology is constantly morphing as I continue to learn. I'm not stuck in the dogma rut.

I'm very open minded...however, if I think what I have is valid, I sink my teeth into it until it's proven wrong....then I adjust and move on.

 

[Georges]

[quote="Georges":5cf49]
Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.

That is an Ad Hominen argument. James says "show" me your faith which means that he wants you to justify yourself before him. God already knows everything and we don't have to justify ourselves before Him unless He is trying to rhetorically show us something. You can chuckle all you want but you lost a serious opportunity to reply with knowledge.

Didn't lose anything my friend....you hung yourself with your own words...as most posters probably will agree...

I'm still waiting for your argument. I have one waiting for you.

You won't get one....I choose to disengage...past experience tells me you won't change your opinion...so I won't bother....you are kind of like Thess (with all due respect). you are both "the sky is green" kind of fellows. No matter how hard one will try to convince you that the "sky is blue", you would never back down.... 8-)

So call it a cop out if you like...I choose not to engage.

John here:
Naw, there were a whole flood/full that God's Spirit while 'Striving' still could not reach in Genesis 6:3. And He says that there is No New Thing.

As usual, I'm going to need someone else to translate the "nutiness" into a comprehensive thought.....What in the world are you talking about? :silly:

Oh, and he BTW was Soloman...



Why do you suppose that is?

I have no Idea...maybe if I go digest a big bowl of mushrooms I'll be able to answer you on the same level...."Forgive me Lord for that little dig".

Try Titus 3:9-11?

So says the Apostate Paul....I mean Apostle. In other words Paul says "Listen to me...Don't bother thinking for yourselves". Sorry Big John, no can do....
So who cares what some will call it? :wink:

:roll:

Sorry, about the bad demeanor today John. The US lost to Ghana and I'm in an ill mood.

[/quote:5cf49]

Hi John.....I'm going to break from my usual silence with you and write a couple of lines...

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Faith Alone

I belive what it says in the bible. Faith alone. ;-)

Can you find me a passage in the Bible that uses the words "faith alone" Dustin :wink: . Thanks. I think you will find there is a problem. It's not in Paul, it's in James and it won't help you much I fear. Paul kinda failed to put the words faith and alone together. (and he does use the word faith alot) So your interpreting what he says to faith alone. But is your interpretation correct? I think that's what we have been discussing and it is not nearly as obvious as you seem to indicate.

 

[Drew]

Re: Faith Alone

I belive what it says in the bible. Faith alone. ;-)

Can you find me a passage in the Bible that uses the words "faith alone" Dustin :wink: . Thanks. I think you will find there is a problem. It's not in Paul, it's in James and it won't help you much I fear. Paul kinda failed to put the words faith and alone together. (and he does use the word faith alot) So your interpreting what he says to faith alone. But is your interpretation correct? I think that's what we have been discussing and it is not nearly as obvious as you seem to indicate.

I'm with you on this one thess - the weight of scriptural evidence and supporting argument that I have seen in this thread seems to inexorably lead me to the (grudging) conclusion that faith, as specifically understood as a one-time act of acceptance of the gift on the cross, is not really sufficient.

I would refer all to r7-12's claim about how, in certain texts, Paul's references to "works" are really references to "first covenant acts of sacrifice" (R7, correct me if I have misrepresented you). I now see Paul as drawing a distinction between "faith" (which I think other scriptures show is inextricably bound up in obedience and not a mere one-time act of 'acceptance' - whatever that might mean) and these sacrificial acts, and not making a distinction between faith and works in the "obedience to the commandments" sense of "works".

 

[R7-12]

Hi everyone,

I would agree with thessalonian and Drew also.

If James were asked to go ahead and show his faith by his works what do you suppose he might explain?

In other words, what aspects of the word of God did he practice that others could recognize as evidence of his faith?

Or put another way, what did he do (or abstain from) on a regular basis that identified his belief system as the truth of God?

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi everyone,

I would agree with thessalonian and Drew also.

If James were asked to go ahead and show his faith by his works what do you suppose he might explain?

In other words, what aspects of the word of God did he practice that others could recognize as evidence of his faith?

Or put another way, what did he do (or abstain from) on a regular basis that identified his belief system as the truth of God?

R7-12

Nothing New under the sun. Ecclesiastes 3:15 :fadein:

It is the Eternal Gospel! Revelation 14:6 & Eternal Covenant Hebrews 13:20

Royal law of liberty! James 2:8-12 Hay, he penns it straight, huh? Philippians 4:13 ='s 2 Corinthians 12:9

Answer?? See 1 John 3:3-6 Eternal law, and 'Liberty'.. as one 'Abideth in Him' like Romans 8:1, huh? Well, no question meant, for that is what the Word says! :wink: Leave the 'city of refuge'? Go Outside of Christ & one finds fatal danger! Numbers 35:26-30. It even states that these ones were 'unawares' folk! verse 1, verse 15, not [openly] known premeditated sins. Check out Psalm 19:13

Oh' and that is what the Godhead meant, (James??)for the messenger is not the issue, just the ETERNAL message sent to us! 1 Corinthians 14:32

---John

 

[Georges]

Hi everyone,

I would agree with thessalonian and Drew also.

If James were asked to go ahead and show his faith by his works what do you suppose he might explain?

In other words, what aspects of the word of God did he practice that others could recognize as evidence of his faith?

Or put another way, what did he do (or abstain from) on a regular basis that identified his belief system as the truth of God?

R7-12

James practiced Judaism as did the other disciples (Apostles). Torah observance (ideally) is a system of Faith and Works...

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi everyone,

I would agree with thessalonian and Drew also.

If James were asked to go ahead and show his faith by his works what do you suppose he might explain?

In other words, what aspects of the word of God did he practice that others could recognize as evidence of his faith?

Or put another way, what did he do (or abstain from) on a regular basis that identified his belief system as the truth of God?

R7-12

James practiced Judaism as did the other disciples (Apostles). Torah observance (ideally) is a system of Faith and Works...

******
Very True, but this God Written & Spoken + REWRITTEN in the Born Again heart & [MIND] of these CONDITIONAL some obeying ones, is the ETERNAL Ten Commandment COVENANT! :wink: (and is not Moses stuff)

And no forum, this loving colorful 'poster' bird & 'i' have nothing much in agreement, huh? :fadein:

--John

 

[R7-12]

Hi John,

I find your comment about James and the other disciples practicing Judaism very odd. Judaism was a corruption of the truth since the return of the Jews from captivity. The Messiah rejected their form of religion. The Jews had inherited the "seat of Moses" and based their practices on the Torah, but incorporated many false traditions and customs and certainly misapplied the intent of the law. Jesus corrected them many times on their errors and exposed their false teaching and interpretations.

Judaism, or those of "the circumcision" were the first to cause trouble and persecute the church. Saul is just one example. Later, Paul would have to deal with the very same influence from the Jews who wanted the Gentile coverts to become circumcised and keep the "whole law" (offer animal sacrifices for sin) [Gal. 3 & 5:1-6].

Most of the Jews refused to repent and accept the Messiah as the Passover Lamb. Instead they maintained their belief that righteousness was by works of the law, (i.e. animal sacrifice) because to them, Jesus Christ had become a stumbling stone (Rom. 9:30-33).

The Jews were given 40 years to repent (a year for a day based on the sign of Jonah) but would not (Mat. 12:38-42, Luke 11:29-32). Thus, on 1 Abib or 1 Nisan, 70 CE, Almighty God intervened by allowing the Romans to invade Jerusalem and destroy the temple, ending the physical sacrificial system of the first covenant which had already been fading away since the death and resurrection of Christ (2 Cor. 3:7-18).

From this point, further corruption entered Judaism including Kabbalism, and the adoption the pagan crescent moon as the first day of the New Moon. Later they introduced the Postponement system to the calendar which was standardized by Hillel II in 358 CE.

Prior to this, the house of Judah had corrupted the worship of God under Rehoboam by building Asherim (phallic symbols to the Babylonian/Assyrian female deity Ishtar, Mother Goddess of the Heavens, or in the Anglicized form - Easter) in high places and worshipping other elohim. They would rebel and reform many times but would eventually reject God and were then allowed to be attacked, defeated and taken captive by the Babylonians for their sin (cf. Jeremiah).

Thus, Judaism was corrupted from before the Diaspora.

By the 4th century CE, Christianity would be penetrated by the Gnostics and the Eastern Sun Cult system and Babylonian Mystery religion. The result remains with us to this day in this world's forms of Christianity.

The true church was given two wings of a great eagle and fled into the wilderness where it has been preserved (Rev. 12).

Those who are of the true Church, the body of Christ, are identified in Revelation 12:17; 14:12 & 22:14 (NKJV). These include all of the Apostles, disciples, Prophets, Patriarchs and servants of the Only True Elohim (John 17:3) who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3, 11:31; Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3).

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John,

I find your comment about James and the other disciples practicing Judaism very odd. Judaism was a corruption of the truth since the return of the Jews from captivity. The Messiah rejected their form of religion.

****
Matthew 23:3 & Matthew 25's Words of Christ, using Virgins in Doctrine teachings were rejected?? Naw, it was the tag along stuff that was rejected! Moses stuff + other future cross 'rent' related doings. Deuteronomy 31:9 (and against thee in Deuteronomy 31:25-25) Did you take note where these two laws were to be kept? Take note of Romans 2:13 also!
****

The Jews had inherited the "seat of Moses" and based their practices on the Torah, but incorporated many false traditions and customs and certainly misapplied the intent of the law. Jesus corrected them many times on their errors and exposed their false teaching and interpretations.

Judaism, or those of "the circumcision" were the first to cause trouble and persecute the church. Saul is just one example. Later, Paul would have to deal with the very same influence from the Jews who wanted the Gentile coverts to become circumcised and keep the "whole law" (offer animal sacrifices for sin) [Gal. 3 & 5:1-6].

*****
Again: You are trying to tell God's UNIVERSE that Their (the Godhead) ETERNAL COVENANT say's anything about 'circumcism' in it??? Come on back to earth! :fadein:
*****

Most of the Jews refused to repent and accept the Messiah as the Passover Lamb. Instead they maintained their belief that righteousness was by works of the law, (i.e. animal sacrifice) because to them, Jesus Christ had become a stumbling stone (Rom. 9:30-33).

****
Most you say & admit??? But what about all the ones from creation on, (even in heaven rebellion itself, and Cain was a Jew!?) as in Hebrews 11:13 who all died [in the faith]!! How were they saved? You best re/study old Abram before he became Abraham, who OBEYED God's [Voice]! See Acts 5:32 for whom it is that were Born Again! Or are you saying that that is only for the Jew that Christ states is a REQUIREMENT for Salvation!
****

The Jews were given 40 years to repent (a year for a day based on the sign of Jonah) but would not (Mat. 12:38-42, Luke 11:29-32). Thus, on 1 Abib or 1 Nisan, 70 CE, Almighty God intervened by allowing the Romans to invade Judea and destroy the temple, ending the physical sacrificial system of the first covenant which had already been fading away since the death and resurrection of Christ (2 Cor. 3:7-18).

****
Naw! Daniel under INSPIRITION states that they were cut off in the midst of the week. Seven times, times, times & 1/2 time, 42 Mo.'s day yr. Ezekiel 4:7 & Numbers 14:34 (if my memory has it right?) See Matthew 23:38 for a DESOLATE FOLD! Compare Revelation 2:5!! In other words 27-34 AD. Christ annointing until Stephens death. When Christ DIED the seperating Vail was rent making the way into the Most Holy Place. The ARK OF GOD WITH HIS ETERNAL COVENANT IS STILL THERE IN HEAVEN'S TEMPLE ITSELF! Revelation 11:19
****

From this point, further corruption entered Judaism including Kabbalism, and the adoption the pagan crescent moon as the first day of the New Moon. Later they introduced of the Postponement system to the calendar and its standardization by Hillel II in 358 CE.

****
Where in the Word is that found?
****

Prior to this, the house of Judah had corrupted the worship of God under Rehoboam by building Asherim (phallic symbols to the Babylonian/Assyrian female deity Ishtar, Mother Goddess of the Heavens, or in the Anglicized form - Easter) in high places and worshipping other elohim. They would rebel and reform many times but would eventually reject God and were then allowed to be attacked, defeated and taken captive by the Babylonians for their sin (cf. Jeremiah).

Thus, Judaism was corrupted from even before the Diaspora.

By the 4th century CE, Christianity would be penetrated by the Gnostics and the Eastern Sun Cult system and Babylonian Mystery religion. The result remains with us to this day in this world's forms of Christianity.

The true church was given two wings of a great eagle and fled into the wilderness where it has been preserved (Rev. 12).

Those who are of the true Church, the body of Christ, are identified in Revelation 12:17; 14:12 & 22:14 (NKJV). These include all of the Apostles, disciples, Prophets, Patriarchs and servants of the Only True Elohim (John 17:3) who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3, 11:31; Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3).

R7-12

*****
You do sound to me like one of the ones described in Revelation 12:17, but which one, the one that followed Christ out, or the ones who stayed put & ended up in 70 AD slaughter?

---John
*****

 

[Georges]

Hi John,

I find your comment about James and the other disciples practicing Judaism very odd. Judaism was a corruption of the truth since the return of the Jews from captivity. The Messiah rejected their form of religion. The Jews had inherited the "seat of Moses" and based their practices on the Torah, but incorporated many false traditions and customs and certainly misapplied the intent of the law. Jesus corrected them many times on their errors and exposed their false teaching and interpretations.

Judaism, or those of "the circumcision" were the first to cause trouble and persecute the church.

Not completely accurate....the Sadduceans were the trouble makers....those working under the Sadducean High Priest (i.e. thug squad) are the ones who persecuted the Nazarene Christians...To lump "circumcison" with all Jews isn't completely accurate....Kinda like saying "all American's are neo Nazis". When in fact, they are Americans, but of a small group. It may be a bad comparision....

Saul is just one example. Later, Paul would have to deal with the very same influence from the Jews (James, Peter and those disciples who served under Christ) who wanted the Gentile coverts to become circumcised and keep the "whole law" (offer animal sacrifices for sin) [Gal. 3 & 5:1-6].

Paul even sacrificed....(Acts 21). Circumcision and Torah obedience identifies you with God's promises. Again as I suggested above, Saul served under the Sadducean High Priest, a group who were opposed to Pharasism. Pharisee's didn't like Sadducee's, and vice-versa.


Most of the Jews refused to repent and accept the Messiah as the Passover Lamb. Instead they maintained their belief that righteousness was by works of the law, (i.e. animal sacrifice) because to them, Jesus Christ had become a stumbling stone (Rom. 9:30-33).

It is strange that James (the brother of Jesus, and head of the Church in Jerusalem) was never told that by his own brother... It is odd that neither Peter, James, John, or any of the other disciples were ever told about this...Even the chameleon Paul sacrificed in Acts 21. Yet, Paul in his letter's seems to oppose this. Hmm...

Christ was the stumblingstone to many Jews, but he was the Messiah to many also....many of the converts in Acts are Jews.

Also, the Jews (Pharasee's) were looking for the Messiah to rid them of Rome and set up the Messianic Kingdom..most of them accepted anyone close to fitting the criteria. The stumbling block was the corrupt Sadducean High Priest line. They saw Jesus as a threat to their power. They are the ones who had Jesus secretly arrested, condemned, and crucified....before anyone could do anything about it.


The Jews were given 40 years to repent (a year for a day based on the sign of Jonah) but would not (Mat. 12:38-42, Luke 11:29-32).

Thus, on 1 Abib or 1 Nisan, 70 CE, Almighty God intervened by allowing the Romans to invade Jerusalem and destroy the temple, ending the physical sacrificial system of the first covenant which had already been fading away since the death and resurrection of Christ (2 Cor. 3:7-18).

Should be the 9th of AB, the day the Temple was destroyed by the Chaldeans and then the Romans....

The destruction of the Temple ended the sacrificing for the time being. However, the Messiah will rebuild the Temple and the sacrificial system will start again...Messiah the Prince will even sacrifice...Eze 40-46.



From this point, further corruption entered Judaism including Kabbalism, and the adoption the pagan crescent moon as the first day of the New Moon. Later they introduced the Postponement system to the calendar which was standardized by Hillel II in 358 CE.

Prior to this, the house of Judah had corrupted the worship of God under Rehoboam by building Asherim (phallic symbols to the Babylonian/Assyrian female deity Ishtar, Mother Goddess of the Heavens, or in the Anglicized form - Easter) in high places and worshipping other elohim. They would rebel and reform many times but would eventually reject God and were then allowed to be attacked, defeated and taken captive by the Babylonians for their sin (cf. Jeremiah).

and returned.....to rebuild the Temple.

Thus, Judaism was corrupted from before the Diaspora.

Uh huh......

By the 4th century CE, Christianity would be penetrated by the Gnostics and the Eastern Sun Cult system and Babylonian Mystery religion. The result remains with us to this day in this world's forms of Christianity.

I do agree with that....it's quite obvious actually.

The true church was given two wings of a great eagle and fled into the wilderness where it has been preserved (Rev. 12).

Nah...that's still future...the believing remant of Messianic Christians, those who do not take the mark of the Beast and reject the False Messiah, will flee the False Messiah during the future last "70th" week period.

Those who are of the true Church, the body of Christ, are identified in Revelation 12:17; 14:12 & 22:14 (NKJV). These include all of the Apostles, disciples, Prophets, Patriarchs and servants of the Only True Elohim (John 17:3) who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3, 11:31; Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3).

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Georges,

You misrepresent what I said by adding your comments in your quotation of my words.

Please edit your post and separate your comments from my words.

Thank you.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Paul even sacrificed....(Acts 21). Circumcision and Torah obedience identifies you with God's promises.

Paul agreed to go with the four men who had taken a vow to the temple for the purpose of purification so that those who did not believe in Jesus as Messiah would not reject Paul and the message he preached because they were told he rejected the law of God outright. Many Jews who did believe were zealous for the law but would have to fully understand the purpose of Christ and His sacrifice and how he fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law (payment for sin leading to life through the shedding of blood - which animal blood couldn’t do), to understand that neither Paul nor the gospel he preached rejected the law of God.

When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21“but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22“What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24“Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25“But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.†(Acts 21:19-26).

The Gentiles who believed, understood the sacrifice of Christ and obedience to the commandments was never an issue. What they needed reminding of was to keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. Why? The meat offered to pagan idols was often from animals that were strangled before the idol which did not allow the blood to drain and thus would remain in the meat. The law of God was clear that eating blood was prohibited. They were also instructed to keep themselves from sexual immorality because it was commonplace for Greeks to enter their local temples and fornicate with temple prostitutes. This was part of their religious system. Women were seen as having spirituality inherent within them but not men. Thus the only way for men to attain this spirituality was to co-mingle with women. It was expected that most women were to fulfill the requirement of temple priestess sometime in their lives, whether married or not. Therefore, it was important to encourage the Greek converts to obey the seventh commandment and not commit adultery or fornication even with temple priestesses.

Concerning Judaism, circumcision, and the law of sacrifice,

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers (Gal. 1:11-14, NKJV).

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters (1 Cor. 7:18-19).

For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law (offer sacrifices); but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law (obedience to God through faith in Christ's sacrifice), will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code (sacrificial ordinances) and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God (Rom. 2:25-29).

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love (Gal. 5:6).

And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased (Gal. 5:11).

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation (Gal. 6:15).

For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh (circumcision and animal sacrifices) (Phil. 3:3).

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead (Col. 2:11-12).

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain (Titus 1:10-11).

Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed (at fault); 12for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy (appealing to the first covenant). 14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel (second covenant), I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles (no longer offer animal blood) and not as the Jews (who rely upon the sacrifices), why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews (become circumcised and sacrifice)? 15“We who are Jews by nature (were given the sacrificial system), and not sinners of the Gentiles (were not given the sacrificial system), 16“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (animal sacrifice) but by faith in Jesus Christ (faith in his sacrifice), even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ (his blood) and not by the works of the law (animal blood); for by the works of the law (sacrificing animals) no flesh shall be justified (declared righteous). 17“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ (his blood), we ourselves also are found sinners (identified as sinners by offering sacrifices), is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18“For if I build again those things which I destroyed (bring back animal sacrifice), I make myself a transgressor (blood of animals does not take away sin). 19“For I through the law (the requirement of your life for sin) died to the law (in Christ’s death) that I might live to God (by His Spirit). 20“I have been crucified with Christ (through baptism); it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God (not by continually offering animal blood for sin), who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21“I do not set aside the grace of God (His mercy); for if righteousness comes through the law (of animal sacrifice), then Christ died in vain (his death serves no purpose).†(Gal. 2:11-21).

R7-12

 

[Terry Lu]

I believe that faith and works are always connected together. And faith plus works is how people got saved. If one really has faith, he/she will absolutely works toward that faith; If one works really hard, he/she definitely has faith. We can never separate work from faith.

 

[Elijah674]

I believe that faith and works are always connected together. And faith plus works is how people got saved. If one really has faith, he/she will absolutely works toward that faith; If one works really hard, he/she definitely has faith. We can never separate work from faith.

Good material!

Heb. 11:1-3 documents this, + Heb. 11:13 has the same message!

Heb. 11
[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report.

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Heb. 11
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

--Elijah