Faith VS. Doctrine

[Edward]

If you look through the gospels at Jesus' use of the term faith, you will see that Jesus does not define faith as doctrine, beliefs, or theology about Himself or God Faith is a trust or confidence in God to meet our basic physical needs, and more importantly, our spiritual needs, the foremost of which are forgiveness, hope and Life. Faith is more than a mental belief that God exists...it is an actual trust in His Person to meet my most important needs, and the greater our faith, the more we will know Him and thus see our greatest needs have little to do with material things.

Now many bible people will react against this truth and say that Jesus teaches much about the importance of beliefs. They are sincere in this objection, but sincerely wrong. Jesus does say, many times, to "believe in me". This phrase means the same as "have faith in me" as far as Jesus' Words are concerned. When Jesus urges someone to "believe" something, he urges them to either believe what He says, or believe in him. Jesus does not say believe the Bible or the OT (unless it was an accurate saying about Him!), or Paul, or anyone or anything else (unless we are repeating his Words or teachings!). Rather he plainly and simply says believe what I say and believe in Me.

Jesus himself says that faith in his Father and Himself is what brings a person into salvation, not intellectually accepting a bunch of beliefs (or partaking in a bunch of rituals), even if those beliefs contain the words or teachings of Jesus.

Luke 7:50
50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€/(NIV)

Did he say, your beliefs about me saved you? Did he say, your doctrine has saved you? Did he say, your correct bible understanding saved you No, he did not say these things. Rather, he plainly says that the woman's faith in him saved her...that her faith in him as who He says He is. Faith is a trust in someone or something, and Jesus says that eternal life is given to those who have faith in his Father and himself as He reveals his Father and himself - and thus live according to the Light's Words. It is important to understand the distinction. I believe it is possible for a person to have both real faith and wrong beliefs, and still be saved. In other words, a person can have real faith (and be saved) in spite of having wrong beliefs about Jesus. This would be true of most people since when they first enter into salvation, they are relatively ignorant of Jesus and don't know him well.

I believe that people who have heard the basic teachings of Jesus, there is only one belief that a person needs... working with real faith in order to be saved. That belief is that Jesus is who He says he is...the only Way to heaven, all the Truth that really matters, and the source of salvation. If a person has true faith and has received those truths from Jesus, then they have salvation, period. However, it is not possible for a person with no true faith, and yet who has a more proper intellectual understanding of Jesus' teachings, to have salvation.
If this is true, (and Jesus says it is), then what about the person who thinks that having proper bible doctrine or knowing the scripture is the way to salvation? They are even further away from the Truth, who is Jesus alone, and thus from properly knowing the real truth. These are those who search the bible and think that having proper religious or bible doctrine is the way to heaven, and yet they refuse to come to the Messiah as He prescribes with his own words... simply, as a small child.

Most of the people who push doctrine, teach and proclaim that if a person has the correct set of beliefs about Jesus and the bible, then they are acceptable to God and are saved. The bible is a big book with many moral truths and human wisdom. There are tens of thousands of bible sects in the world today. Each sect identifies a certain truth or truths from the bible (or worse yet adds more "revelations" from more men and quote books other than the Bible they claim contain revelations from God, or say that the Holy Spirit has revealed such truths to them.) They say that their truth/doctrine set is what is needed to be believed in order to be saved. They then defend their doctrine set against the other groups who identify a contradiction (or even a perceived discrepancy) in what the scriptures actually say, and their doctrine. Sometimes even discrediting the scriptures in favor of what their favorite author has said, or claiming a special revelation from the Holy Spirit. they run to their fav author and cut & paste, or write many words in order to produce the intellectual slight-of-hand and double-speak to convince them no contradiction exists between their doctrine and scriptures.

Once they are justified in their belief that the contradiction is not actually a contradiction, they say that the other person or sect cannot see that 'truth' because of x,y,z reasons. Those reasons usually include things like, they don't have the Holy Spirit, or, they are blinded by Satan to this critical doctrine, or some such. There are many condemnations to be sure, but it results in what covers the earth at this time...the bible-religious organizations all divided and fighting for their own religious power and influence over other people!

The truth is that a person's faith and resultant love for, and obedience to God is what makes a person both pleasing to, and accepted by the Father and the Son, not their beliefs about God! A reasonable question to the truth (that a person can have wrong beliefs about Jesus and yet still be acceptable to God), is what then is the motivation to continue to seek Jesus and receive more truth? The simple answer is because Jesus tells us to. He commands that we ask, seek and knock, and that eternal life itself is to know him and his Father. To know him and his Father means we need to really know him by His Words, and more importantly, to receive them. This happens over time and requires diligence, discipline and effort, along with much prayer...perseverance through failures. He warns us many times to not be misled or deceived, and falsehoods mislead and deceive us.

Another important reason that we ought to continue to seek Jesus and know the Truth better, is because our faith can be built up by the Truth. In other words, the better we know the Truth, the more we can be DOING what he says, and this leads to an exercising of our faith in a way that is pleasing to the Father, which should be our goal. It is important to understand that our faith is not caused by truth...it merely has opportunity to exist or grow from our hearing the truth. By hearing the truth, we know what to do and whom to place our trust in. But placing our trust in the Father or the Son is what faith is about, and truth will not cause us to do that. Rather, it can only point us to whom we ought to be trusting in...whom we ought to have faith in, Jesus! In like manner, our faith can be harmed by falsehoods we believe. The falsehoods can encourage us to remove our faith in the Father and the Son, but holding those falsehoods in our mind will not necessarily cause us to do so. Only when those falsehoods cause us to reject and deny Jesus and his Father, as Jesus revealed them (not as the rest of the bible or some so-called prophet reveals them), do they play a role in destroying our faith. But ultimately, if we did have true faith to start with, we must stop trusting in the Father and the Son in order to be rejected by them.

Understanding these things about faith - which are directly taught by, or deduced from, the teachings of Jesus - will encourage us to fulfill the teaching of Jesus of not judging others. In terms of understanding where another person is at spiritually, the best we can do as followers of Jesus, is to determine if another person has correct intellectual understanding of Jesus' words and teachings and is willing to try and do what Jesus says. What we cannot determine is whether they have real faith or not if they intellectually profess to believe in him. True faith is primarily demonstrated by our actions, our life, not described by our words. So, we should not judge whether another person has true faith or not, for we cannot determine that by their beliefs.

Most religious people are deceived by beliefs that contradict Jesus's words while at the same time saying that is not the case. For example, a person says they believe Jesus's words that we are to love our enemies, while at the same time saying is it right to listen to a government who tells them to take a weapon and kill an enemy. In this case, they are not listening to the real teachings of Jesus, but a doctrine of their own falsehoods. This is an indication that the real Jesus is not their Master. In cases of people believing contradictions, they usually use religious relativism to justify their disobedience to Jesus saying that people can legitimately interpret that teaching of Jesus (for example, love your enemy) in different ways. Again, this is an indication that they do not yet love the Truth!

Real faith is typically exercised when we are in a position of helplessness where our physical life or someone or something we highly value is endangered. What faith is shown by going to church once a week to partake in the services? This is not good, for those who make a practice of outwardly declaring that they represent Jesus, and yet disobey him, are in a very bad place. Does this mean they don't have any real faith? No, it doesn't, and we should not condemn them for pushing doctrine. It does mean, however, that we should rebuke them, and if they don't listen to Jesus, stay away from them or we will be misled, for Jesus warns us of this.
Matthew 24:11
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people./ (NIV)

In conclusion, we should understand the difference between faith and mental beliefs (doctrine). This understanding should lead us to avoid judging a person's faith, for we cannot know for certain how much faith a person has. This should lead to less condemnation of others (a favorite hobby of self-righteous religious people and the thousands of sects they represent), and more of doing what the Light says.

Jesus never said it would be easy to follow him...in fact, he said it would require turning away from all that the world says is valuable, and instead following him. And to follow him requires faith as great as a mustard seed. On the other hand, it is quite easy to think I have all the right bible doctrine, and yet not have any real faith. The easy way to death is to fit into any of the thousands of denominations & bible sects and adopt their doctrine as your own, and continue a life which manifests a love for this world.

Our loving Father wants what is best for us, but we have to be willing to do what His Son says in order to experience that love and thus to know Him. We have a clear choice given by the Son. May we be wise after our King, and judged as stupid by the world...especially the religious world...I hope this makes sense. Sorry so long, but this has been bugging me since I have been on this forum, and read so much bickering and hostile words about things that are supposed to be simple, yet they are confounded by doctrine pushers. As a little child shall you approach God and have faith brothers and sisters, that's all.

 

[Edward]

I guess I made this too long for people to read, lol. Sorry.

 

[Kaliani]

No, it was quite an interesting read.

I think childlike faith is often a problem to us because it seems the same as gullibility.

I honestly don't see that anyone on this forum needs to worry THAT much about looking gullible. At least they know and have the real Jesus of the Bible.

Google Sananda, a channeled entity claiming to be Jesus, who has produced tons of writings.

You don't need a Ph.D in Theology, Divinity, etc to know that that is NOT Jesus Christ. You at least know His voice. That's big.

 

[Edward]

No, it was quite an interesting read.

I think childlike faith is often a problem to us because it seems the same as gullibility.

Thank you. I think the childlike faith is important. In our weakness is His strength. Verily I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it (Mark 10:15). This verse surfaces most often when Christians argue that God calls us to follow Him with a “child-​​like faith”. But what exactly does a child-​​like faith entail? What does it mean to follow Christ with the faith of a child?
Perhaps the most common interpretation of child-​​like faith is what’s called “simple faith” Christianity, which emphasizes complete trust in God. Proverbs 3:5 commands us, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.” Our own intellect and understanding cannot help us, in fact, our own perception of the world can lead us away from God. The realization that our futures are uncertain causes anxiety and a temptation to depend upon ourselves rather than God. It’s the if you want ​​something done ​​right, do it yourself mentality. Simple faith calls us to let go of that mentality that is so prevalent in American culture, it calls us to let go. In Matthew 11:25, Jesus says, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. The Bible praises those who have the faith and the understanding of little children.

I remember when my kids were toddlers and we'd play around at bedtime. My Sons would sit on the top bunkbed and literally throw himself off it, having full faith in Daddy, that he would catch him. I'd marvel at his faith in me. If I didn't catch him, he would have certainly been hurt when he hit the floor. He wasn't scared. I'd catch them and they'd climb right back up there, just a laughing and having so much fun! They would do it again with no thought of the consequence if I failed to catch them. A "Leap of faith" is what they'd do. They knew daddy would catch them. This is the sort of faith that the Lord wants us to have in Him. No thought of the consequence, just have faith in Him.

This is not easy to do as an adult! We're too smart for that, lol. But we can. It takes not leaning on our own understanding. Think the lad David was scared walking out onto the field with Goliath? Sure he was. But he had faith and put his trust into God...and God came through for him! This is way more important than doctrine and understanding. I am learning to do this more and more. I used to stress about money, but less and less as time goes on. When I have faith, and put the worry out of my mind, God always comes through for me. He has never failed me. It's always last minute, but somehow never late either! Interesting how that works.

 

[Mountain Man]

If faith or belief trumps doctrine or teaching and instruction then what is the point of the word of God ?reading it ? following it ?.....all I have to do is "believe" and have faith in my belief....at that point I am making the rules not God

 

[Free]

If you look through the gospels at Jesus' use of the term faith, you will see that Jesus does not define faith as doctrine, beliefs, or theology about Himself or God Faith is a trust or confidence in God to meet our basic physical needs, and more importantly, our spiritual needs, the foremost of which are forgiveness, hope and Life. Faith is more than a mental belief that God exists...it is an actual trust in His Person to meet my most important needs, and the greater our faith, the more we will know Him and thus see our greatest needs have little to do with material things.

Now many bible people will react against this truth and say that Jesus teaches much about the importance of beliefs. They are sincere in this objection, but sincerely wrong. Jesus does say, many times, to "believe in me". This phrase means the same as "have faith in me" as far as Jesus' Words are concerned. When Jesus urges someone to "believe" something, he urges them to either believe what He says, or believe in him. Jesus does not say believe the Bible or the OT (unless it was an accurate saying about Him!), or Paul, or anyone or anything else (unless we are repeating his Words or teachings!). Rather he plainly and simply says believe what I say and believe in Me.

Jesus himself says that faith in his Father and Himself is what brings a person into salvation, not intellectually accepting a bunch of beliefs (or partaking in a bunch of rituals), even if those beliefs contain the words or teachings of Jesus.

Luke 7:50
50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€/(NIV)

Did he say, your beliefs about me saved you? Did he say, your doctrine has saved you? Did he say, your correct bible understanding saved you No, he did not say these things. Rather, he plainly says that the woman's faith in him saved her...that her faith in him as who He says He is. Faith is a trust in someone or something, and Jesus says that eternal life is given to those who have faith in his Father and himself as He reveals his Father and himself - and thus live according to the Light's Words. It is important to understand the distinction. I believe it is possible for a person to have both real faith and wrong beliefs, and still be saved. In other words, a person can have real faith (and be saved) in spite of having wrong beliefs about Jesus. This would be true of most people since when they first enter into salvation, they are relatively ignorant of Jesus and don't know him well.

I believe that people who have heard the basic teachings of Jesus, there is only one belief that a person needs... working with real faith in order to be saved. That belief is that Jesus is who He says he is...the only Way to heaven, all the Truth that really matters, and the source of salvation. If a person has true faith and has received those truths from Jesus, then they have salvation, period. However, it is not possible for a person with no true faith, and yet who has a more proper intellectual understanding of Jesus' teachings, to have salvation.
If this is true, (and Jesus says it is), then what about the person who thinks that having proper bible doctrine or knowing the scripture is the way to salvation? They are even further away from the Truth, who is Jesus alone, and thus from properly knowing the real truth. These are those who search the bible and think that having proper religious or bible doctrine is the way to heaven, and yet they refuse to come to the Messiah as He prescribes with his own words... simply, as a small child.

Most of the people who push doctrine, teach and proclaim that if a person has the correct set of beliefs about Jesus and the bible, then they are acceptable to God and are saved. The bible is a big book with many moral truths and human wisdom. There are tens of thousands of bible sects in the world today. Each sect identifies a certain truth or truths from the bible (or worse yet adds more "revelations" from more men and quote books other than the Bible they claim contain revelations from God, or say that the Holy Spirit has revealed such truths to them.) They say that their truth/doctrine set is what is needed to be believed in order to be saved. They then defend their doctrine set against the other groups who identify a contradiction (or even a perceived discrepancy) in what the scriptures actually say, and their doctrine. Sometimes even discrediting the scriptures in favor of what their favorite author has said, or claiming a special revelation from the Holy Spirit. they run to their fav author and cut & paste, or write many words in order to produce the intellectual slight-of-hand and double-speak to convince them no contradiction exists between their doctrine and scriptures.

Once they are justified in their belief that the contradiction is not actually a contradiction, they say that the other person or sect cannot see that 'truth' because of x,y,z reasons. Those reasons usually include things like, they don't have the Holy Spirit, or, they are blinded by Satan to this critical doctrine, or some such. There are many condemnations to be sure, but it results in what covers the earth at this time...the bible-religious organizations all divided and fighting for their own religious power and influence over other people!

The truth is that a person's faith and resultant love for, and obedience to God is what makes a person both pleasing to, and accepted by the Father and the Son, not their beliefs about God! A reasonable question to the truth (that a person can have wrong beliefs about Jesus and yet still be acceptable to God), is what then is the motivation to continue to seek Jesus and receive more truth? The simple answer is because Jesus tells us to. He commands that we ask, seek and knock, and that eternal life itself is to know him and his Father. To know him and his Father means we need to really know him by His Words, and more importantly, to receive them. This happens over time and requires diligence, discipline and effort, along with much prayer...perseverance through failures. He warns us many times to not be misled or deceived, and falsehoods mislead and deceive us.

Another important reason that we ought to continue to seek Jesus and know the Truth better, is because our faith can be built up by the Truth. In other words, the better we know the Truth, the more we can be DOING what he says, and this leads to an exercising of our faith in a way that is pleasing to the Father, which should be our goal. It is important to understand that our faith is not caused by truth...it merely has opportunity to exist or grow from our hearing the truth. By hearing the truth, we know what to do and whom to place our trust in. But placing our trust in the Father or the Son is what faith is about, and truth will not cause us to do that. Rather, it can only point us to whom we ought to be trusting in...whom we ought to have faith in, Jesus! In like manner, our faith can be harmed by falsehoods we believe. The falsehoods can encourage us to remove our faith in the Father and the Son, but holding those falsehoods in our mind will not necessarily cause us to do so. Only when those falsehoods cause us to reject and deny Jesus and his Father, as Jesus revealed them (not as the rest of the bible or some so-called prophet reveals them), do they play a role in destroying our faith. But ultimately, if we did have true faith to start with, we must stop trusting in the Father and the Son in order to be rejected by them.

Understanding these things about faith - which are directly taught by, or deduced from, the teachings of Jesus - will encourage us to fulfill the teaching of Jesus of not judging others. In terms of understanding where another person is at spiritually, the best we can do as followers of Jesus, is to determine if another person has correct intellectual understanding of Jesus' words and teachings and is willing to try and do what Jesus says. What we cannot determine is whether they have real faith or not if they intellectually profess to believe in him. True faith is primarily demonstrated by our actions, our life, not described by our words. So, we should not judge whether another person has true faith or not, for we cannot determine that by their beliefs.

Most religious people are deceived by beliefs that contradict Jesus's words while at the same time saying that is not the case. For example, a person says they believe Jesus's words that we are to love our enemies, while at the same time saying is it right to listen to a government who tells them to take a weapon and kill an enemy. In this case, they are not listening to the real teachings of Jesus, but a doctrine of their own falsehoods. This is an indication that the real Jesus is not their Master. In cases of people believing contradictions, they usually use religious relativism to justify their disobedience to Jesus saying that people can legitimately interpret that teaching of Jesus (for example, love your enemy) in different ways. Again, this is an indication that they do not yet love the Truth!

Real faith is typically exercised when we are in a position of helplessness where our physical life or someone or something we highly value is endangered. What faith is shown by going to church once a week to partake in the services? This is not good, for those who make a practice of outwardly declaring that they represent Jesus, and yet disobey him, are in a very bad place. Does this mean they don't have any real faith? No, it doesn't, and we should not condemn them for pushing doctrine. It does mean, however, that we should rebuke them, and if they don't listen to Jesus, stay away from them or we will be misled, for Jesus warns us of this.
Matthew 24:11
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people./ (NIV)

In conclusion, we should understand the difference between faith and mental beliefs (doctrine). This understanding should lead us to avoid judging a person's faith, for we cannot know for certain how much faith a person has. This should lead to less condemnation of others (a favorite hobby of self-righteous religious people and the thousands of sects they represent), and more of doing what the Light says.

Jesus never said it would be easy to follow him...in fact, he said it would require turning away from all that the world says is valuable, and instead following him. And to follow him requires faith as great as a mustard seed. On the other hand, it is quite easy to think I have all the right bible doctrine, and yet not have any real faith. The easy way to death is to fit into any of the thousands of denominations & bible sects and adopt their doctrine as your own, and continue a life which manifests a love for this world.

Our loving Father wants what is best for us, but we have to be willing to do what His Son says in order to experience that love and thus to know Him. We have a clear choice given by the Son. May we be wise after our King, and judged as stupid by the world...especially the religious world...I hope this makes sense. Sorry so long, but this has been bugging me since I have been on this forum, and read so much bickering and hostile words about things that are supposed to be simple, yet they are confounded by doctrine pushers. As a little child shall you approach God and have faith brothers and sisters, that's all.

Sounds nice but it is wrong. The entire NT shows that what we believe is central. And you have unwittingly affirmed this throughout much of your attempt to prove it wrong.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

How does a person determine what to believe and what to reject? What then, is the determining factor or factors that must be applied to develop a basis for faith in Jesus?

 

[Guest]

When I came to faith in Jesus Christ, I didn't care about the Bible or what it said for that matter. But I've heard of Jesus so I started talking to him and believed and confessed, and he came to me. His promise is true.

 

[jeff77]

[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION]. I read the whole thing and I thought it was interesting. I think that I personally don't have all the doctrines right, but I am trying my best to find the truth in each of them. I do believe that God will forgive me if I have misunderstood a doctrine and will still go to heaven. However I do also believe that their are some people that what they believe is so far off and in contrast in so many ways with the Bible that they are not even worshipping the real Jesus. Of course God only knows each persons heart. I am not trying to judge what is in their heart but I think we all just naturally observe what people say they believe and compare it to what we believe, especially on a forum where we are discussing it.

 

[Edward]

If faith or belief trumps doctrine or teaching and instruction then what is the point of the word of God ?reading it ? following it ?.....all I have to do is "believe" and have faith in my belief....at that point I am making the rules not God

No, not at all. The Bible is given to us in the first place simply to invite us to make ourselves at home in the world of God, God’s word and world, and become familiar with the way God speaks and the ways in which we answer him with our lives. As we read the Bible it reads us. When you hold a Bible in your hands, it contains our collective stories. Each of us can find little glimpses of ourselves in its pages. The people in the Bible are a whole lot like you, and a lot of them were far from perfect. We need to open our eyes and see what God would have each of us understand about ourselves. It gives us the insight we need to be able to change ourselves and our lives from the inside out, introduces us to God and shows who we should have faith in. Getting hung up on the doctrine is missing the point of it and is legalism. You get to know God through reading His word. God gets to know you and your heart through prayer. The word of God is absolutely essential for growth. What shall the Holy Spirit shine a light on, your carnal thoughts without the seeds of his word?

Free, see my above post to MountainMan.

(Truth over Tradition)

How does a person determine what to believe and what to reject? What then, is the determining factor or factors that must be applied to develop a basis for faith in Jesus?

Good question! That is the work of God in our lives . . . to change us from the inside out and to slowly transform us into the image of His son. That is where the Holy Bible comes in and plays the important part.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. — Hebrews 4:12-13.

The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Applying a method of interpretation to scripture passages can be challenging. Reading and understanding the Bible is a process of discovery that goes beyond a hasty read-through. One must carefully study and seek to interpret the author’s intended meaning without projecting meaning onto the text. In order to read scripture in a meaningful and accurate way, it is logical to use what the Rev. Ernest Lucas calls the standard methods of biblical interpretation that have been well established since the time of Augustine and the early church fathers. Lucas, who has doctorates in both biochemistry and theology, explains that these standard methods involve asking the following five questions: What kind of language is being used? What kind of literature is it? What is the expected audience? What is the purpose of the text? What relevant extra-textual knowledge is there?

With this mindset in place, and understanding that the Bible is divinely inspired we then look to divine illumination from the Holy Spirit in prayer. Ask and ye shall receive. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. This is the Holy Spirits job. With no presuppositions, and not leaning upon our own understanding, our hearts are ready to receive His word, and it shall be given. God proves Himself and reveals Himself through us in our hearts a little at a time. Wisdom and understanding grows, faith grows.

urk gets it. It is true. God does not fail us.

(Jeff77)

I read the whole thing and I thought it was interesting. I think that I personally don't have all the doctrines right, but I am trying my best to find the truth in each of them. I do believe that God will forgive me if I have misunderstood a doctrine and will still go to heaven. However I do also believe that their are some people that what they believe is so far off and in contrast in so many ways with the Bible that they are not even worshipping the real Jesus. Of course God only knows each persons heart. I am not trying to judge what is in their heart but I think we all just naturally observe what people say they believe and compare it to what we believe, especially on a forum where we are discussing it.

You are correct. We really do not need to look to men for interpretation, we ask the Holy Spirit. I think it must be impatience that makes us ask men, and perhaps a desire to help those younger in faith to understand things. But many times people pride steps in and those without the Love of God and the truth within them will begin bickering, wanting to show off and seeking respect I suppose. Those that are not even worshipping the real Jesus as you said. Best to leave these types alone and pray to God for illumination through His Holy Spirit and to not be deceived.

 

[Mountain Man]

No, not at all. The Bible is given to us in the first place simply to invite us to make ourselves at home in the world of God, God’s word and world, and become familiar with the way God speaks and the ways in which we answer him with our lives. As we read the Bible it reads us. When you hold a Bible in your hands, it contains our collective stories. Each of us can find little glimpses of ourselves in its pages. The people in the Bible are a whole lot like you, and a lot of them were far from perfect. We need to open our eyes and see what God would have each of us understand about ourselves. It gives us the insight we need to be able to change ourselves and our lives from the inside out, introduces us to God and shows who we should have faith in. Getting hung up on the doctrine is missing the point of it and is legalism. You get to know God through reading His word. God gets to know you and your heart through prayer. The word of God is absolutely essential for growth. What shall the Holy Spirit shine a light on, your carnal thoughts without the seeds of his word?

What about essential beleifs,Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by me....can i reject this and choose to see and choose my own way ?

 

[Edward]

What about essential beleifs,Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by me....can i reject this and choose to see and choose my own way ?

No, you seem to be trying to turn a belief in Jesus into a doctrine. It's a simple do you believe in Him or don't you? So if you reject this as you say and choose your own way, then no you wont go to heaven. Scripture is clear, those who reject Him will not enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Guest]

Edward's right, I didn't know anything about the Bible when I came to Faith.

 

[Guest]

Technically an atheist doesn't even have to know about Romans 10:9. Faith is Faith.

 

[fishbreath]

hi Edward!
This may not be on track with what you meant the discussion for, but I somehow don't get the impression God is as concerned about doctrine as He is about us getting to know Him on an intimate level. I want to be like Moses who talked face to face with God like person to person. Since there was no bible for people to argue over (lol) people had to hear from God for themselves.
“Thus says the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgement, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says the LORD.” Jeremiah 9:23-24

 

[ezrider]

Edward, I think that this is very significant and important topic for discussion, but I fear many are unwilling to make a distinction between belief and faith. From my experience, people tend to express their faith in terms of simple belief. They read the scripture and their faith is in their belief and understanding of what that scripture says, yet their faith is misplaced; their faith has become an expression of knowledge, and not a true faith in Christ. To give an analogy, take the debate over evolution versus creationism: a person grows up believing in God, but in the process of education and the discovery of science learns of evolution and comes to accept it as truth, and in doing so rejects the account of creation and as a result rejects God. This person never had true faith, only the faith in what he believed to be true at that time. There are many believers here on this forum who argue and debate back and forth over issues and topics while questioning each others faith/belief. A real person of faith would follow Paul’s exhortation to avoid vain and unprofitable disputations (Titus 3:9), understanding it does not serve the Kingdom of God.

There is an interesting scripture in Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

From faith to faith: that is a profound statement and definitely one that should be meditated upon. Most have read and know the scripture where the Lords said take no thought for your life, for what you shall eat or what you shall drink; but if you are one who subscribes to having a food closet with a three year food supply, or you are a doomsday prepper, are you really demonstrating true faith. You may have acknowledged the scripture, and you may believe what the scripture says, but in the end you demonstrate that you do not trust the Lord, and you have claimed the righteousness of God for yourself.

The topic of the law is one that is continually debated. Are we under the law? Or has the law ended? The law is the principalities and powers that we wrestle with, and it tests our faith continually. We can quote the scripture that Jesus came not to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them; but in what way? The Lord demanded mercy, not sacrifice. (Micah 6:8) He hath shown thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God. Jesus called out the scribes and Pharisees for leaving off the weightier maters of the law, those being judgement, mercy and faith (Matt 23:21). You may not realize it, but the ministry of Jesus was an expression of Faith. When the law demands that an adulteress be stoned to death, that is an act of following a duty to the law; But when one stands up and says I forgive you of your sins, that is an act of faith that lies in opposition to the law.

 

[forgiven]

[MENTION=90700]Edward[/MENTION]
I will start by saying I have a hard time putting my thoughts into written words so pls bear with me. OK I agree with you on most of what you have written. The area I live in has a different church on every corner, and alot of different denominations. This causes a large divide with believers. And no I'm not saying having alot of different churches in my area is a bad thing, it's just that alot of the churches believe it is their way or no way. I personally do not subscribe to any one mans doctrine or one mans interpretation to scripture. I personally do not label myself as a denomination, I am a Christian. My views cross denominational lines so to speak and I do not feel that any one group, myself and the church I attend included, has it all or knows it all. I choose to put my faith in God not man or myself for that matter. I just really believe that believers often choose to fight among each other alot and put more emphasis on legalism rather than coming together as the collective body of Christ. What is the big deal if I wear my hair short?? Or if I wear my hair long?? Do others know what is in my heart?? Do others know what is in my soul?? I just see alot of division in the church than I do unity. If you are a believer, and only you and God can know that, then what is it my business if you believe differently than me on other issues? 1Corinthians 13:9 says We know in part and prophesy in part

I am blessed with a mom that did not adhere to mans doctrines but got in the bible sought answers herself, and she raised me to do the same. I was raised in church and around bible teachings my whole life and had alot of head knowledge before I had faith. FAITH is what saved my soul. Yeah I always knew that there was a God, and Jesus and all that, but I didn't believe it with all my heart mind body and soul. I didn't have faith that He was actually there with me, died for my sins, and would always be there for me. I didn't know how to lean on Him and just trust that He would take care of me all the way. What I'm trying to say is that until THAT MOMENT, the best moment of my life, all I had until that point was the head knowledge that there was a God. In that special moment when I finally got it and all that I had been taught my whole life finally clicked into place that He was there, He died for me, and He would remain with me every step of the way. That's when things changed. That's when I actually developed a relationship with my Saviour.

And speaking of coming to Him like a child, yeah shortly after that moment was when I found out that all that head knowledge wasn't going to do me any good. I really didn't know how to apply it. So I basically threw out all that I thought I knew and asked for His guidance in helping me find my way with Him. Like a child would seek something from their parents and just have faith they would provide. See children don't ask 'is there any food I can eat?' they ask 'may I have something to eat?' just trusting their parents will have what they need. And it's been a long journey of finding answers and truth, and moving from faith to faith to faith. Just when I think I am starting to think I'm getting a little knowledge He will show me I still have a longgggg way to go. But that's OK bc I have FAITH that He will help me through my seeking and everything else for that matter.

I am sorry I started the post off with a bit of a rant but I am going through some issues with extended family right now bc the way hubby and I choose to worship isn't how some of our family does. Bc we do not hold a certain doctrine then we are wrong and it has been becoming an issue. I just don't understand why Christians can't just unite and say, 'OK Bob you may take scripture slightly different than me, but as long as your heart is clear with God, then I can't wait to see you in heaven', and just leave it at that? Because at the end of the day if we are all actually Christians, and only us and God knows who those are, can't we just agree that we are all one big family with the same loving Father?

 

[George Muller]

Childlike faith is not ignorant faith, I think it best describes one who needs and accepts Christ at His Word in simplicty. I think The Lord used the term, to contrast that which can be seen in the Pharisees, an attempt through guile to have the things of Gods Kingdom. As far as doctrine, if one says they have simple faith in Christ, I say what is it that you believe about Him? What did he do for you on the cross? The heart is changed at the new birth, the old "wicked" heart is replaced with the "new heart" promised in the Old Testament, but it is the doctrine of the gospel that renews the mind.

Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Sparkey]

Edward, kindly allow me to point to something that I notice here. You see, I'm a student. Being this means that I love to learn. One of the things that I am learning sounds simple too but it isn't. This 'thing' that is being taught to me is also something that you have demonstrated very well here. It may sound dry to some because of its simplicity and I'm not talking about the Bible but it applies well to your thought. Pardon my digression for a moment and trust that I'll weave it back to the topic at hand.

Assertions are statements that may be challenged. It's almost silly to write at length about an assertion where there can be no revelation, no thought needed. The thesis statement for your topic here could have been, for instance, "God is good." Although true, it would leave very little room for discussion. It is my assertion that thinking, as opposed to reporting or reacting, should lead you to ideas. But what does it mean to have an idea? It's one thing to acquire knowledge, but you also need to learn how to produce knowledge, to think for yourself. The problem is that people get daunted when asked to arrive at ideas. They dream up ingenious ways to avoid the task. Or they get paralyzed with anxiety.

What is an idea? Must an idea be something entirely "original"? Must it revamp the way you understand yourself or your stance toward the world?

It is easiest to understand what ideas are by considering what ideas do and where they may be found. Most strong analytic ideas launch you in a process of resolving problems and bring competing positions into some kind of alignment. They locate you into a place where there is something to negotiate, where you are required not just to list answers but also to ask questions, make choices, and engage in reasoning about the significance of the evidence presented.

• An idea usually starts with an observation that is puzzling, with something you want to figure out rather than something you think you understand completely.
• An idea may be the discovery of a question where there seemed not to be one.
• An idea answers a question; it explains something that needs to be explained or provides a way out of a difficulty that other people have had in understanding something.
• An idea may make explicit and explore the meaning of something implicit --an unstated assumption upon which an argument (more about this, the 'concept of arguments' later, -for another thread) rests, or a logical consequence of a given position.
• An idea may connect elements of a subject and explain the significance of that connection.
• An idea often accounts for some dissonance, that is, something that seems to not fit together.

Perhaps you get my idea as expressed so far. Good ideas are not expressed as absolutes but allow room for growth, learning, exploration and even, when cast toward the extreme, are necessary for life itself. This idea that you've expressed, that one need only believe in Jesus is something that is central to the gospel. It is an implicit that is being made explicit. When reading an idea, it becomes my obligation to check my understanding of what you've said first. In that effort one might provide Scriptural support just to see if we are speaking about the same things. We are told to, "... believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us." (1 John 3:23(ESV) The Scriptures say if you confess Jesus and believe that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved. (Rom 10:9)

No doctrine (even the doctrine of Faith) is based on one verse in neglect of others. Some may come to this thread because they hear things that are not being said. What I've heard is that you have clearly stated that we are saved by Faith (and that not of ourselves, lest any should boast). The part that needs also to be stated (for proper balance) is [Jam 1:22 NKJV] 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves," and other "Action commands" that are found in the Word of truth.

But this that I point to now does not at all attempt to negate what you've stated. Frankly, I like your idea. It does qualify rather well under my above given definition. One other thing that I would leave the thread with is also found in the book of James:

[Jam 3:1 ESV] 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Teachers are the preservers and givers of doctrine. There is a need for this in the Body of Christ. Anointed, called by God into the office of Teacher, men who are gifted in explaining and instruction are needed and essential especially in these times. But maybe more than this is the need for the ability to hear well, to suspend judgment and to consider an idea. It's easy enough. Just ask yourself, is this idea sinful or does it promote sin? If not, get behind it. It's an idea, not a blasphemy.

In love,
~Sparrow

 

[farouk]

@Edward
I will start by saying I have a hard time putting my thoughts into written words so pls bear with me. OK I agree with you on most of what you have written. The area I live in has a different church on every corner, and alot of different denominations. This causes a large divide with believers. And no I'm not saying having alot of different churches in my area is a bad thing, it's just that alot of the churches believe it is their way or no way. I personally do not subscribe to any one mans doctrine or one mans interpretation to scripture. I personally do not label myself as a denomination, I am a Christian. My views cross denominational lines so to speak and I do not feel that any one group, myself and the church I attend included, has it all or knows it all. I choose to put my faith in God not man or myself for that matter. I just really believe that believers often choose to fight among each other alot and put more emphasis on legalism rather than coming together as the collective body of Christ. What is the big deal if I wear my hair short?? Or if I wear my hair long?? Do others know what is in my heart?? Do others know what is in my soul?? I just see alot of division in the church than I do unity. If you are a believer, and only you and God can know that, then what is it my business if you believe differently than me on other issues? 1Corinthians 13:9 says We know in part and prophesy in part

I am blessed with a mom that did not adhere to mans doctrines but got in the bible sought answers herself, and she raised me to do the same. I was raised in church and around bible teachings my whole life and had alot of head knowledge before I had faith. FAITH is what saved my soul. Yeah I always knew that there was a God, and Jesus and all that, but I didn't believe it with all my heart mind body and soul. I didn't have faith that He was actually there with me, died for my sins, and would always be there for me. I didn't know how to lean on Him and just trust that He would take care of me all the way. What I'm trying to say is that until THAT MOMENT, the best moment of my life, all I had until that point was the head knowledge that there was a God. In that special moment when I finally got it and all that I had been taught my whole life finally clicked into place that He was there, He died for me, and He would remain with me every step of the way. That's when things changed. That's when I actually developed a relationship with my Saviour.

And speaking of coming to Him like a child, yeah shortly after that moment was when I found out that all that head knowledge wasn't going to do me any good. I really didn't know how to apply it. So I basically threw out all that I thought I knew and asked for His guidance in helping me find my way with Him. Like a child would seek something from their parents and just have faith they would provide. See children don't ask 'is there any food I can eat?' they ask 'may I have something to eat?' just trusting their parents will have what they need. And it's been a long journey of finding answers and truth, and moving from faith to faith to faith. Just when I think I am starting to think I'm getting a little knowledge He will show me I still have a longgggg way to go. But that's OK bc I have FAITH that He will help me through my seeking and everything else for that matter.

I am sorry I started the post off with a bit of a rant but I am going through some issues with extended family right now bc the way hubby and I choose to worship isn't how some of our family does. Bc we do not hold a certain doctrine then we are wrong and it has been becoming an issue. I just don't understand why Christians can't just unite and say, 'OK Bob you may take scripture slightly different than me, but as long as your heart is clear with God, then I can't wait to see you in heaven', and just leave it at that? Because at the end of the day if we are all actually Christians, and only us and God knows who those are, can't we just agree that we are all one big family with the same loving Father?

[MENTION=96530]forgiven[/MENTION]:

Hi again; I think I agree with a great deal of what you say here.

At the heart of believing the gospel is simple faith in the person and work of the Lord Jesus, Who died at the Cross for sinners.

Paul speaks of the 'simplicity that is in Christ' (2 Corinthians 11.3).

While Biblical truth can be approached from many angles profitably, yet it's best not to do so by endlessly debating logical propositions: otherwise people can end up going round and round in circles; and so often the appeal isn't to what Scripture says, but to how one logical proposition relates to another.

Trust is a big thing, when it comes to faith in the Lord: Isaiah 26.3-4.

So yes, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

Blessings to you and yours.