"Faith without works is dead".............lets get the scripture right.

[Kidron]

Some of you have the typical legalistic theology that is firmly created by not being able to distinguish between salvation and discipleship.
You are combining them into your single idea of salvation, and that is your extreme error.
Now understand.........."Salvation"...."Discipleship".............two different words and two completely different definitions.

Now Let me explain James and that one verse that just flips out so many believers (and others)..

Faith without works is Dead.".

what does this really mean?

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.
Thats the meaning.
In essence, and according to James......your faith, even tho it has saved you, has wilted and become hybernated and "dead"..
Understand?
Do you understand that if you dont use something you lose it?
Try not lifting anything with your right arm for one year and watch your arm turn into a lifeless useless piece of flesh that just dangles "without WORKS" by your side.
Yet if you do WORK with it all the time, what happens?
See it?
See the verse?
Are you LOOKING?
Faith is your ARM, and using it is WORKS.
Now get that...

Now, get this.
Salvation, is........"God on a cross saving you for FREE".

Discipleship is........."what you do for GOD AFTER you are saved and not to try to earn or keep your salvation".

see the difference?
Understand?

When you or legalistic people like you read....."faith without works is dead",... you twist it in your skulls to be interpreted as....."i can only >be saved< if i do stuff, keep the law, live holy, and confess every sin like a maniac".
But the verse is not talking about being saved, its telling you to DO SOMETHING NOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED OTHER THEN SNORE IN CHURCH AND PLAY ONLINE ALL DAY.
Its talking about DISCIPLESHIP...............DISCIPLESHIP............DISCIPLESHIP.....>After you are SAVED<..
The verse is telling you that after you are saved, if you dont get in the Holy game and stop your sinning, and live for the Lord, then you will backslide and soon forget what your faith has recreated you to be, and then your faith is useless, IT DEAD..... other then it saved you.
Your faith has become DEAD in the sense that it hasen't any power, any authority, or life.
Listen, what James is saying is...."""Let me show you by my good works that my faith is ALIVE""".
Let my good works, my Christian deeds, prove to all that im not some backslid nothing, but rather my works prove im IN THE GAME, im WALKING THE WALK......im a good disciple......and hes not doing it to be saved.....but because he IS saved...

Legalistic people like you confuse this verse to teach that James is saying you do works to BE SAVED, but that is 100% error, as what he is saying is....BECAUSE I AM SAVED, LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR THE LORD...........SEE IT...............SEE MY WORKS........LOOK, LOOK........LOOK and do the SAME THING !!

and that, is DISCIPLESHIP ..

So dont confuse salvation with discipleship., and dont continue to use James or Hebrews to try to confuse yourself.

Now, Let me ask you a few questions....
.
Do you pray and meditate on the Lord all day long, everyday?
Have you won more then 10 people to Christ since you were saved?
Have you stopped watching dirty cable TV and R-rated movies yet?
Do you read your bible at least 2 x a day for at least 30 minutes?
Do you witness to people on the street or on the job or to your neighbors YET????
If not, your faith is pretty much .....dead....dead .....dead...according to JAMES.....as you are doing nothing with it.
nothing !!
But you are still Saved.......absolutely, as you cant be unborn again.<

That is what James is telling you in his letter.
Are you listening?
Time to get the scripture right, dont you think?
Time to get BUSY, or else as James says, your "faith is dead" !!.



K

 

[Adullam]

Some of you have the typical legalistic theology that is firmly created by not being able to distinguish between salvation and discipleship.
You are combining them into your single idea of salvation, and that is your extreme error.
Now understand.........."Salvation"...."Discipleship".............two different words and two completely different definitions.

Now Let me explain James and that one verse that just flips out so many believers (and others)..

Faith without works is Dead.".

what does this really mean?

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.
Thats the meaning.
In essence, and according to James......your faith, even tho it has saved you, has wilted and become hybernated and "dead"..
Understand?
Do you understand that if you dont use something you lose it?
Try not lifting anything with your right arm for one year and watch your arm turn into a lifeless useless piece of flesh that just dangles "without WORKS" by your side.
Yet if you do WORK with it all the time, what happens?
See it?
See the verse?
Are you LOOKING?
Faith is your ARM, and using it is WORKS.
Now get that...

Now, get this.
Salvation, is........"God on a cross saving you for FREE".

Discipleship is........."what you do for GOD AFTER you are saved and not to try to earn or keep your salvation".

see the difference?
Understand?

When you or legalistic people like you read....."faith without works is dead",... you twist it in your skulls to be interpreted as....."i can only >be saved< if i do stuff, keep the law, live holy, and confess every sin like a maniac".
But the verse is not talking about being saved, its telling you to DO SOMETHING NOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED OTHER THEN SNORE IN CHURCH AND PLAY ONLINE ALL DAY.
Its talking about DISCIPLESHIP...............DISCIPLESHIP............DISCIPLESHIP.....>After you are SAVED<..
The verse is telling you that after you are saved, if you dont get in the Holy game and stop your sinning, and live for the Lord, then you will backslide and soon forget what your faith has recreated you to be, and then your faith is useless, IT DEAD..... other then it saved you.
Your faith has become DEAD in the sense that it hasen't any power, any authority, or life.
Listen, what James is saying is...."""Let me show you by my good works that my faith is ALIVE""".
Let my good works, my Christian deeds, prove to all that im not some backslid nothing, but rather my works prove im IN THE GAME, im WALKING THE WALK......im a good disciple......and hes not doing it to be saved.....but because he IS saved...

Legalistic people like you confuse this verse to teach that James is saying you do works to BE SAVED, but that is 100% error, as what he is saying is....BECAUSE I AM SAVED, LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR THE LORD...........SEE IT...............SEE MY WORKS........LOOK, LOOK........LOOK and do the SAME THING !!

and that, is DISCIPLESHIP ..

So dont confuse salvation with discipleship., and dont continue to use James or Hebrews to try to confuse yourself.

Now, Let me ask you a few questions....
.
Do you pray and meditate on the Lord all day long, everyday?
Have you won more then 10 people to Christ since you were saved?
Have you stopped watching dirty cable TV and R-rated movies yet?
Do you read your bible at least 2 x a day for at least 30 minutes?
Do you witness to people on the street or on the job or to your neighbors YET????
If not, your faith is pretty much .....dead....dead .....dead...according to JAMES.....as you are doing nothing with it.
nothing !!
But you are still Saved.......absolutely, as you cant be unborn again.<

That is what James is telling you in his letter.
Are you listening?
Time to get the scripture right, dont you think?
Time to get BUSY, or else as James says, your "faith is dead" !!.



K

You are piling on human efforts AFTER you claim salvation???? That's exactly what the Galatians were doing! There's no...do this and do that under grace. You are doing what you accuse me of doing. Human reasoning is a killer. You condemn the truth and the power of abiding in Christ, then you tell people what they should be physically doing in order to prove that they are good Christians. That is perfectly Pharisaical.

It's like this...you don't have to get a real degree in medicine..it's FREE. Now if you want to look like a doctor then wear a lab coat!!! If you don't wear a labcoat than you won't appear to be a doctor (hint hint) but you can still claim to be one.

You have mastered the art of creating hypocrisy!

 

[Adullam]

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

 

[Elijah674]

satan has the two complete opposites seen in his todays EXTREME 'd'octrine. His success can be documented by the Lord's WORD of the huge Broadway as seen inMatt. 7 + Rev. 17:1-5!

One teaches WORKS to earn salvation. (rome) And the other's? The largesr is maybe baptists? who save anyone who just 'believes' with NO WORKS REQUIRED. Yet, just see their reams & reams of false 'WORK'!

satan has used both of these two opposite extremes 'perfectly evil' to fill hell's last day judgement. See Luke 12:47-48 for who are most accountable.

Inspiration has it seen right James 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So the above finds satan's men 'Holy Spirit/less'! Acts 5:32

--Elijah

 

[Adullam]

We can't claim to be saved and then try to clean up our own acts so we "appear" more Christian. We are to cease from our own works to be under grace...not put on a show for the flesh. There is an increasing danger in our time of bad doctrine to be a Pharisee and make it look good. This is the opposite of the way in Christ.

Rather when we are under grace we act from there and have no need to fill any criteria or law. We are human BEINGS not human DOINGS. So the fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit not from us. It is not a show...it is real.

 

[Danus]

We can't claim to be saved and then try to clean up our own acts so we "appear" more Christian. We are to cease from our own works to be under grace...not put on a show for the flesh. There is an increasing danger in our time of bad doctrine to be a Pharisee and make it look good. This is the opposite of the way in Christ.

Rather when we are under grace we act from there and have no need to fill any criteria or law. We are human BEINGS not human DOINGS. So the fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit not from us. It is not a show...it is real.

Exactly..... faith without works is simply a dead faith. Conversely, works do not = faith.

 

[Elijah674]

We can't claim to be saved and then try to clean up our own acts so we "appear" more Christian. We are to cease from our own works to be under grace...not put on a show for the flesh. There is an increasing danger in our time of bad doctrine to be a Pharisee and make it look good. This is the opposite of the way in Christ.

Rather when we are under grace we act from there and have no need to fill any criteria or law. We are human BEINGS not human DOINGS. So the fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit not from us. It is not a show...it is real.

What one of te Rev. 17:1-5 denominations are you showing us??????

Dan. 12
[9] And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
[10] Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

[Adullam]

What one of te Rev. 17:1-5 denominations are you showing us??????

Dan. 12
[9] And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
[10] Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

We live in a time of religious unreality.....the time of the Laodiceans. These claim everything for themselves but without any reality. How many presently claim they are saved and guaranteed glory in the kingdom. Such are of Laodicea.

 

[Danus]

Faith without works is Dead.".

what does this really mean?

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.

I like the spirit of this, but there is an oxymoron in your conclusion. Something that crosses something out. Do you see it?

 

[Adullam]

I like the spirit of this, but there is an oxymoron in your conclusion. Something that crosses something out. Do you see it?

The error is that we are to do something for God. Talk about an appeal to the flesh. The whole premise is wrong...but it does tickle the ears don't it! ;)

 

[Danus]

The error is that we are to do something for God. Talk about an appeal to the flesh. The whole premise is wrong...but it does tickle the ears don't it! ;)

That it does.
(insert drum roll) I'm surprised no one has tried yet to market the wigi Bible. (badoom-boom) .....OK that's enough from me.

 

[Drew]

Some of you have the typical legalistic theology that is firmly created by not being able to distinguish between salvation and discipleship.
You are combining them into your single idea of salvation, and that is your extreme error.
Now understand.........."Salvation"...."Discipleship".............two different words and two completely different definitions.

Your reasoning here is circular; You effectively assume the very thing you should be making a case for, namely that one tease apart "salvation" and "discipleship".

I do not believe you can, and may argue for that in a later post. But your argument is really just a statement of your position.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV1984)


Note:

The labor of love, a fruit of the Spirit, accompanies salvation. (As opposed to the fruitless 'fields' in the previous verses that are under the curse (the absence of God's blessing) and are destined to be burned).

Being diligent to the end in the labor of love makes the reality of our salvation evident to us and others. It doesn't establish our salvation. It shows it to be sure thing--that we really have the hope of salvation.

It is through faith, and the ongoing perseverance of faith, not work, that we inherit what has been promised.

 

[Drew]

You are piling on human efforts AFTER you claim salvation???? That's exactly what the Galatians were doing! There's no...do this and do that under grace.

I believe that in Galatians, Paul is objecting to those who want to return to following the Law of Moses. That is an entirely different issue than the more general matter of "good works".

In Romans 2, and elsewhere, Paul is clear: good works are indeed needed for final salvation:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.†<SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP><SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>and immortality, <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>he will give eternal life.

I suggest that one of the biggest exegetical errors of our time is taking Paul's critique of the Jewish notion of ethnically privileged salvation, as marked out by doing the works of the Law of Moses, and transforming it into a critique of the general concept of "needing to good works" to be saved.

Again, the text above from Romans 2 means what it means - people are granted salvation according to, yes, what they have done.

And, for reasons I have provided in many other posts, this truth in no way undermines the principle of salvation by faith. Why not? Precisely because - and Paul spells out this quite explicitly in places like Romans 8 - it is the Holy Spirit, given by faith alone, that is the engine that produces the good works that, as Paul says in Romans 2, will be the basis for final salvation.

To you who disagree: What do you think was in Paul's when he wrote the words from Romans 2 that I have re-produced above?

 

[Adullam]

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[Elijah674]

The error is that we are to do something for God. Talk about an appeal to the flesh. The whole premise is wrong...but it does tickle the ears don't it! ;)

?????
I must be dense!
The verse reads thus:

Rev, 3:16-17
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, [[I will spue thee out of my mouth]].:verysick
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

NO the fact is that these ones love everything above Christ! And that He comes in second place or beyond.

And these ones post ream after ream of... 'Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;'

--Elijah

 

[stormcloud]

I've never understood the "either/or" stance on the subject of faith and works when the only way to reconcile the different passages of scripture about this subject, is to take a "both/and" approach.

 

[Elijah674]

I've never understood the "either/or" stance on the subject of faith and works when the only way to reconcile the different passages of scripture about this subject, is to take a "both/and" approach.

Mankind were all... 'all' lost. The way back is the Lord's 'recreated Loving conditional working way only'. The starting point comes with an 100% Surrender, and then & only then is the Power to MATURE supplied. Phil. 4:13 has our 'working Required' faith part.

And it is yes 'i' will or no I won't! (and most are documented as what?)

---Elijah

 

[Kidron]

You are piling on human efforts AFTER you claim salvation????

Not at all.
Go back and read what i wrote.
If you do, you will understand that im separating for the sake of the confused, the idea that salvation is connected with works.
Now, if you missed that, its because you are not reading carefully.

See,. here is the issue.
Legalistic types, read,..."faith without works is dead", and they interpret it incorrectly to read......."works + faith = Im saved".

So, what they did is not understand that salvation is NOTHING you do, and Discipleship is EVERYTHING you are supposed to do.

I hope this helps you to understand the verse, but if not, go back and read my Thread carefully.



K

 

[Kidron]

One teaches WORKS to earn salvation.

--Elijah

Any theology that tries to prove that works or deeds or acts or "lifestyle' IS NECESSARY to be saved or to stay saved is a Lie according to Paul and Galatians, as it has eliminated the Cross and the blood of Christ as the ONLY means of atonement, and in this it has denied the very Faith that God requires to be saved.



K