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Faith without works........is Faith.

A New Dawn said:
I, personally, am not discussing this point, I am wanting to know how you correlate not believing that forgiveness is a gift with OSAS belief. What I believe on the subject has no correlation to how you connect them.
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If I may butt in here....

To bring you up to speed, I can tell you how FreeGrace correlates not believing that forgiveness is a gift with OSAS belief.

His doctrine says Romans 11:29 NASB proves OSAS:

"...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."" (Romans 11:29 NASB)

His logic being, since eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23 NASB), and Paul says the gifts of God are irrevocable, then eternal life is irrevocable....presto! Out pops 'Once Saved Always Saved'.

I then pointed out the flaw in his logic. The flaw being we know there is a gift of God in the kingdom that is indeed revocable (forgiveness--Matthew 18:23-35 NASB), therefore, you can't decide that Paul is talking about any and all gifts of God, especially the gift of eternal life. He countered with 1) Paul's only talking about the gifts in the context of Romans (except Romans 9:4-5 NASB, of course), and 2) forgiveness is not a gift. So that's where that comes from.

You see his doctrine has to say forgiveness is not a gift because if it was, according to his own logic it would have to be included in the gifts that Paul says are irrevocable (it's in the context he himself set--Romans 3:24 NASB). But you can't do that, because forgiveness is a gift of God in the kingdom that is revocable (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB). So it's clear Paul can't be talking about forgiveness--our redemption/salvation (Colossians 1:14 NASB)--as one of the gifts that are revocable in Romans 11:29 NASB.

Clear as mud, right? :confused2
 
A New Dawn said:
The point I was trying to make was that you were drawing incorrect conclusions and making inaccurate observations.
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About what ?

What observation of mine was inaccurate ?

What conclusion did I come to, that was incorrect?

Please share with me from the scriptures, about my incvorect conclusions and my inaccurate observations.


Thanks JLB
 
Jethro Bodine said:
If I may butt in here....

To bring you up to speed, I can tell you how FreeGrace correlates not believing that forgiveness is a gift with OSAS belief.

His doctrine says Romans 11:29 NASB proves OSAS:

"...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."" (Romans 11:29 NASB)

His logic being, since eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23 NASB), and Paul says the gifts of God are irrevocable, then eternal life is irrevocable....presto! Out pops 'Once Saved Always Saved'.

I then pointed out the flaw in his logic. The flaw being we know there is a gift of God in the kingdom that is indeed revocable (forgiveness--Matthew 18:23-35 NASB), therefore, you can't decide that Paul is talking about any and all gifts of God, especially the gift of eternal life. He countered with 1) Paul's only talking about the gifts in the context of Romans (except Romans 9:4-5 NASB, of course), and 2) forgiveness is not a gift. So that's where that comes from.

You see his doctrine has to say forgiveness is not a gift because if it was, according to his own logic it would have to be included in the gifts that Paul says are irrevocable (it's in the context he himself set--Romans 3:24 NASB). But you can't do that, because forgiveness is a gift of God in the kingdom that is revocable (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB). So it's clear Paul can't be talking about forgiveness--our redemption/salvation (Colossians 1:14 NASB)--as one of the gifts that are revocable in Romans 11:29 NASB.

Clear as mud, right? :confused2
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Thank you for replying! I just wasn't sure how one got from point A to point B!

I am not in total agreement that that passage from Matthew suggests that forgiveness is revokable, since the original debt was not reinstated on the servant. The servant was thrown in jail for a different transgression. But I thank you for your explanation!
 
A New Dawn said:
Thank you for replying! I just wasn't sure how one got from point A to point B!

I am not in total agreement that that passage from Matthew suggests that forgiveness is revokable, since the original debt was not reinstated on the servant. The servant was thrown in jail for a different transgression. But I thank you for your explanation!
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Please share!
That's what this is all about. :)

'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him (IOW, the debt was reinstated). 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." (Matthew 18:32-35 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine)

Some argue that the forgiveness being spoken about here is not salvation forgiveness. I think it is, but it doesn't matter. The point is, this forgiveness was a free gift and was then rescinded. And Jesus said this can be compared to how it is in the kingdom (vs. 23), and that this is how his Father will treat each of us if we act like the wicked servant (vs. 35).

So, this forgiveness--this free gift of God--is given, and can be revoked, in the kingdom of God. Therefore, it's impossible that Paul was including forgiveness in his "the gifts...of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB). That would create a contradiction between Paul and Jesus in our scriptures.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
Please share!
That's what this is all about. :)

'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him (IOW, the debt was reinstated). 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." (Matthew 18:32-35 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine)

Some argue that the forgiveness being spoken about here is not salvation forgiveness. I think it is, but it doesn't matter. The point is, this forgiveness was a free gift and was then rescinded. And Jesus said this can be compared to how it is in the kingdom (vs. 23), and that this is how his Father will treat each of us if we act like the wicked servant (vs. 35).

So, this forgiveness--this free gift of God--is given, and can be revoked, in the kingdom of God. Therefore, it's impossible that Paul was including forgiveness in his "the gifts...of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB). That would create a contradiction between Paul and Jesus in our scriptures.
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You are right, I leapt over that part of the passage. However, I believe that he is harking back to the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9-15 NASB, in which case he is not talking about salvation but about relational issues. The way I read it is that if you are having a problem with someone, it interferes with your relationship with God, and therefore must be attended to first. Mark 6:25 NASB
 
IMHO, this is one of those things that we are not going to be able to fit into a nice, neat little box so that we can point at it and say "this is what God meant".
Is it possible to lose one's salvation? Will the Holy God turn His back on the child who repented and was adopted into His family? (Rom 8:15, Gal 4:6) Did Jesus say "I will never leave you or forsake you"? (Hebrews 13:5) What did He mean?
Why does the good shepherd leave 99 sheep out in the wilderness to go and search for the one wayward sheep that had been left behind? (Luke 15:4-7)
Eternal security...it's a tricky thing.
I think of Jesus at the sea of Galilee, after His resurrection. (John 21:14)
There is the beautiful story of how Jesus asks Peter three times to affirm his love for Him. Three times, Peter had denied Him, and now, three times Jesus asks him, "do you love Me?" Jesus shows Peter his impending death.
Peter turns and sees John...and whether is friendly curiosity, or perhaps a touch of jealousy, Peter asks "and what shall this man do?" His answer was not slow in coming:
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Now, I don't know how Peter felt at that moment, but I think, if I had been in his sandals, I would have decided not to ask any more dumb questions....

Perhaps that is what we all ought to do, when it comes to worrying about each other's salvation. If a person believes that they have eternal security, perhaps we ought to leave it between him and His God...

Indeed, maybe it wouldn't hurt to investigate a bit, and see why he feels so confident.
Perhaps he has found the key to that peace beyond all understanding...
 
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JLB said:
By saying ALL son, do you mean sin that we will commit in the future?

Some people believe once we come to Christ and are forgiven of our sins, we don't need to ever ask Him to forgive us again, because all out sins that we will ever commit are already forgiven.

Is that what you are saying?


JLB
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Here, I think, we must go back to an ancient prophecy, and an ancient promise:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is the "New Covenant" which was promised, and by which each Christian lives.
God has put His law in our inward parts, He has written it in our hearts.
I am not saying that we cannot sin...but if and when we do, we have a still small voice inside of us that will give us no peace until we make it right again.
Of course, God knows all about it, and has already put it away from us...it is up to us to acknowledge that fact. Then God can say to us 'why are you remembering that which I have already forgotten'...and our fellowship with our Father is restored.
It is never God Who breaks His Covenant....it is always us. And all we ever need to do is acknowledge it, and let God bring us back to Himself.
 
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Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
 
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