False teachers

[ofthetruth]

The word of God says,

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Matthew 5:43-44)

I say Amen to Matthew 5:43-44. I also say Amen to Psalm 139:21-22 which says,

Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.


Who may abide in God's tabernacle? Who may dwell in God's holy hill?

He who does not backbite with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor does he take up a reproach against his friend; (Psalm 15:3)

In whose eyes a vile person is despised, But he honors those who fear the LORD; He who swears to his own hurt and does not change; (Psalm 15:4)

 

[stovebolts]

So your saying that Jesus is correcting a teaching about hating your enemy based on David's emotional response to the crushing pressures from his enemies in Psalm 139?

 

[ofthetruth]

What I am saying is that true believers both love their enemy's (as in Matthew 5:44) and hate their enemy's (as in Psalm 139:21-22). That is what the bible teaches.

 

[stovebolts]

That's odd...

David says in Psalm 139:21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Doesn't this verse teach us that David hated his enemies?

Now then, Jesus says,
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Matthew 5:43-44) Where did David do these things to his enemies?

Obviously somebody read Psalms 139:21 and decided that we ought to hate our enemies too.

David also took another man's wife and ended up putting him to death... Is that ok too?

Who would you rather be like in this regard? Jesus or David?

 

[ofthetruth]

"Doesn't this verse teach us that David hated his enemies?"

Yes. And David was a man of God.



"David also took another man's wife and ended up putting him to death... Is that ok too?"

No, because scripture tells us that what David did was wrong (2 Samuel 12:9; 1 Kings 15:5).



Paul wrote,

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. (1 Corinthians 16:22)

This is an extremely hateful and hostile statement, and Paul was a man of God.

 

[stovebolts]

"Doesn't this verse teach us that David hated his enemies?"

Yes. And David was a man of God.

But don't you think that scripture would support the idea that David was a man after God's own heart based on his response to the sins he committed? Let's look at the next verse ok?

Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

We often sin without knowing that we are sinning. Do you agree? David, a man after God's own heart, I believe realised this and as such invites God to search his heart. We could all learn from this no?

So we see that David hated his enemies, yet Jesus tells us to love our enemies. What we can learn from David in this passage is that we should be in touch with our emotions, yet open to God's guidance.

"Where did David do these things to his enemies?"

Saul is called David's "enemy" (1 Samuel 24:4; 26:8). Yet David spared Saul (1 Samuel 24:10), and that was love ("Love... is kind" 1 Corinthians 13:4).

David does not call Saul his enemy... David holds Saul as God's anointed and later kills the man who kills Saul.

But more to the point, David has a conscience and remands his men who Saul is.

And it came to pass afterward, that David's heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul's skirt. 6 And he said unto his men, The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord's anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord.

As a side note, Psalm 139 is not talking about Saul.

"David also took another man's wife and ended up putting him to death... Is that ok too?"

No, because scripture tells us that what David did was wrong (2 Samuel 12:9; 1 Kings 15:5).

Yes, and we see how David responds to his sin...

StoveBolts, let me ask you, in your eyes, is a vile person despised? If a vile person isn't "despised" in your eyes, the you are not one who may dwell in God's holy hill (Psalm 15:1, 4).

Paul wrote,

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. (1 Corinthians 16:22)

This is an extremely hateful and hostile statement, and Paul was a man of God.

As far as Psalms15, yes, we should reject those that are wilfully not living in accordance with God's law, which are now written on our heart. People who consistently and knowingly do wrong, lie, slander, wilfully do harm to others and insults his neighbour reap what they sow.

As far as Paul's word to the church at Corinth, it should be a stiff reminder to those who call themselves Christian, yet don't live like Christians....

 

[justvisiting]

I agree. Being yolked with unbelievers means actually under the same yolk as oxen are. So don't intentionally be partners with or trust unbelievers. It's very clear. As God tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:10, we would have to leave the world if we stayed away from unbelievers.

I see scripture as one long sentence. if we omit or take out part of scripture, then we have actually distorted the word of God. so all scripture must be taken together. But first, we must drink pure milk which are the simple words in the bible. We cannot go on to the spiritual truths underneath the simple words if we don't believe the simple words or add to or subtract from them in the first place. But unfortunately, that's what most false teachers do.

I totally agree with that one... and you are right...about arguing with people that cannot even accept the word as it is written. If they cannot accept the word at face value...as written...then I'm not interested in their "16th theory of Solomon dissertion". (a little play with the itching ears.)
Glad to see you are a Christian Heidi. You might want to search out a Bible College, to get fully anchored. I spent two years in one. I think it helps.

 

[ofthetruth]

...

 

[Heidi]

I agree. Being yolked with unbelievers means actually under the same yolk as oxen are. So don't intentionally be partners with or trust unbelievers. It's very clear. As God tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:10, we would have to leave the world if we stayed away from unbelievers.

I see scripture as one long sentence. if we omit or take out part of scripture, then we have actually distorted the word of God. so all scripture must be taken together. But first, we must drink pure milk which are the simple words in the bible. We cannot go on to the spiritual truths underneath the simple words if we don't believe the simple words or add to or subtract from them in the first place. But unfortunately, that's what most false teachers do.

I totally agree with that one... and you are right...about arguing with people that cannot even accept the word as it is written. If they cannot accept the word at face value...as written...then I'm not interested in their "16th theory of Solomon dissertion". (a little play with the itching ears.)
Glad to see you are a Christian Heidi. You might want to search out a Bible College, to get fully anchored. I spent two years in one. I think it helps.

Amen. :amen "Interpreting' the bible instead of simply believing it is when people put their own slant on it and change God's words to what itching ears want to hear. Good post.

Actually I'm still thinking about seminary because all I love to do is read and study God's word. But from what I've seen, there are as many disputes about the bible in seminary as there are in the outside world. Also, from what I've seen, it's easy to become proud once one earns a degree. I'm just a little girl, and a despised one at that. So it's harder for me to become proud because people don't listen to me as much since I don't have a degree. So I prefer to read only the bible since no one but God can give us the ultimate truth.

 

[stovebolts]

"David does not call Saul his enemy"- StoveBolts

I said, "Saul is called David's "enemy" (1 Samuel 24:4; 26:8)."

You would be correct However, we were talking about Psalms 139 where David states that he hated his enemies... Why would you pull in a verse to support David's view that has David's men saying something that David isn't saying?

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies"

Jesus doesn't say "don't hate your enemies". He teaches to love them.

Is that akin to saying, "I just love to hate my enemies?" :naughty

I think Jesus is pretty clear. By his opening statement Jesus says, "You have heard it said". What do you know about the sages and their tradition? Of course it was the Sages who have read scripture to day, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy". You are reading scripture the same way...

You cannot love and hate your enemy at the same time... You either love them, or you hate them. It's really that simple. Now then, if loving them could be as easy as understanding the commandment :nod

 

[ofthetruth]

I used Psalm 139:21-22 to show that David hated people. You said,

Now then, Jesus says,
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Matthew 5:43-44) Where did David do these things to his enemies?

So I showed Davids love with the Saul situation.




The word of God says,

"love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44)

This is not a command to have an emotion, but rather action (e.g. 1 John 3:16-18). See Romans 12:19-20.


StoveBolts wrote,

"You cannot love and hate your enemy at the same time"


Says you. But where does the bible say that? Infact, the Almighty both loves (John 3:16) and hates (Psalm 5:5) the wicked.

 

[Heidi]

Both the OT and NT are correct. David is showing us why the wicked are to be hated. But the new covenant is showing us how to respond to the wicked since we are also wicked but God loves us. So who are we to hate those who are wicked as well? So the new covenant is the completion (solution) of the old. One cannot forgive someone for being righteous, only for being wicked and doing wrong.

 

[ofthetruth]

Heidi wrote,

"Both the OT and NT are correct. David is showing us why the wicked are to be hated"

Then she wrote,

"who are we to hate those who are wicked as well?"



Heidi, I hate the wicked, and this is something every true man of God does (e.g. Psalm 26:5; 31:6; 55:15; 69:22-28; 139:21-22). I say along with Paul,

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. (1 Corinthians 16:22)

 

[Heidi]

Heidi wrote,

"Both the OT and NT are correct. David is showing us why the wicked are to be hated"

Then she wrote,

"who are we to hate those who are wicked as well?"



Heidi, I hate the wicked, and this is something every true man of God does (e.g. Psalm 26:5; 31:6; 55:15; 69:22-28; 139:21-22). I say along with Paul,

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. (1 Corinthians 16:22)

And put that together with "It is mine to avenge" and "love your enemies" and what do you get? You get 1 Corinthians 5:12, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are we not to judge those inside the church? God will judge those outside." Our hope and prayer is for the wicked to be saved. Judgment and justice is up to God.

 

[stovebolts]

I used Psalm 139:21-22 to show that David hated people. You said,

Now then, Jesus says,
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Matthew 5:43-44) Where did David do these things to his enemies?

So I showed Davids love with the Saul situation.

Let's back track this a bit can we? I think you missed something. ;)

Our primary teaching comes from Jesus where Jesus says, "You have heard it said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy"

I simply asked where the people might have heard this from. The correct answer would be from the Sages who taught Torah to the masses.
Now then, you did post a passage that shows that David hated his enemies (Nations who worshipped the pantheon, not YHVH AND where aggressive toward Israel) and even went as far as to basically say that since David hated his enemy, we should hate our enemies. This goes directly against what Jesus taught when Jesus said, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you"
You then pulled in another passage that showed David's men, not David calling Saul their enemy and then after David cut off a piece of Saul's garment, David felt remorse.

I don't know if your able to see how your using scripture, but the style your using is a cut and paste of text to support your own understanding and is dangerous. Here's why.

First and foremost, the Bible is a story, God's story that is both living and breathing. What makes it living and breathing is that the stories in the Bible become our story as we relate to them and reflect upon them. When we find a story that is talking about X and has phrase 1 in it, and we find another story about B that has phrase 2 in it, we need to know that Story X and Story B are related because they are both alphabet characters and that phrase 2 and phrase 1 are only related because they are numerical values. If your following along, it's dangerous to add or subtract numerical values from separate alphabetical characters because when we do so, we've just ripped apart the story and the text becomes dry like data to be sifted, analysed and compartmentalised into these nice little bricks that neatly stack upon one another to form a wall... Some might call this "Being wise"... but then again, it feels good to tickle an itching ear.

The word of God says,

"love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44)

This is not a command to have an emotion, but rather action (e.g. 1 John 3:16-18). See Romans 12:19-20.


StoveBolts wrote,

"You cannot love and hate your enemy at the same time"


Says you. But where does the bible say that? Infact, the Almighty both loves (John 3:16) and hates (Psalm 5:5) the wicked.

It's natural to hate your enemy. Anyone can do that, even King David.... Jesus gives us a higher calling, after all, the road is narrow and few find it.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Grace and peace.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

we are also wicked but God loves us.

Heidi, when you say "We", to whom do you refer?

Also, what is it that Paul says Christians have already attained?

Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing

Paul also put's it this way,

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

 

[Heidi]

we are also wicked but God loves us.

Heidi, when you say "We", to whom do you refer?

Also, what is it that Paul says Christians have already attained?

Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing

Paul also put's it this way,

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

We are all wicked without the Holy Spirit. Once God has redeemed us, he considers us saints, but only by the Holiness of His Holy Spirit. We still have a sinful nature as Galatians 5:17 explains. We are simply being made holy until we are considered blameless on the day of the Lord. that's what I mean.

 

[stovebolts]

So when somebody receives the Holy Spirit, we shouldn't refer to ourselves as wicked then right?

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Peter seems to make a distinction between the old us, and the new us. Would you agree?

 

[Heidi]

As Jesus says; "No one is good but God alone." So since only God is good, then whatever good that comes from man is from God's Spirit, not Satan or our sinful nature. That's my point. If you don't understand it, then there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[stovebolts]

So as Born Again Christians, we're not considered Holy in God's eye?

Is not good the same as wicked?
Or are we sorta, kinda like " wicked holy"?