Bible Study Familiar Spirits

[Northman]

We need to hear and listen to what the Spirit of God is speaking to us in all truths. We are human and sometimes miss what the Spirit is speaking, but will always correct us if we are opened to be corrected.

This deserves and needs special mention. The statement is totally 100% correct. There is no way it can't be. But what happens when someone takes a concept and applies it to a word that was never there? There are two occasions where that has been pointed out here. It is not the Spirit of God that will lead someone to an understanding that "'ob" means simply a spirit that is familiar to someone, or that "way ye da'" means a possible wrong view.

 

[for_his_glory]

1 Samuel 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

The woman cried with a loud voice in vs. 12, not because she saw this demon spirit come up who took on the form of Samuel for she was the one that called this familar spirit up. She cried out with a loud voice as she was angry at Saul after finding out who he was as he disguised himself. She feared Saul might put her away for being a medium/soothsayer.

This familar spirit knew all about Saul being an enemy against David as Saul feared David even plotting to do away with him and disobeying God's commands as God became an enemy against Saul and took away his kingship and appointed David king, 1 Samuel 15; 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14. This is why God would not answer Saul neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets, 1 Samuel 28:6. It was God who slew Saul and turned the kingdom unto David, 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14. God turned away from Saul as Saul did evil in the sight of the Lord as he caused his own death, 1 Samuel 15:23-35.

This familar spirit taking on the form of Samuel mimicked the words the real Samuel spoke to Saul back in 1 Samuel 15. Read again 1 Samuel 15 and compare that to 1 Samuel 28:15-20.

We know Samuel was a prophet of God who had died, 1 Samuel 28:3, and even now lays in his grave as no one has ever ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven, John 3:13. Samuel could have never been the one who spoke to Saul from the grave for this is impossible and goes against scripture.

 

[for_his_glory]

This deserves and needs special mention. The statement is totally 100% correct. There is no way it can't be. But what happens when someone takes a concept and applies it to a word that was never there? There are two occasions where that has been pointed out here. It is not the Spirit of God that will lead someone to an understanding that "'ob" means simply a spirit that is familiar to someone, or that "way ye da'" means a possible wrong view.

I don't take concepts, but present topics that the Lord gives me first to study and then present when He tells me to do so. If we continue to take words out of the Bible and replace them with other words like all these new Bibles seem to do then it is we who add to or take away from the word of God. How is anyone going to go back to the purest form of a word unless they have all the original Hebrew/Aramaic writings in their hands of what all the prophets and Apostles actually penned.

How many of us can seriously say we can read the original Hebrew/Aramaic language or the Greek with complete accuracy by what is penned on papyrus or whatever they wrote on at that time. Unless you are a scholar fluent in these languages I doubt not to many of us could read that of the original. I will believe in what is written in the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible as I believe the more modern the translations the more is lost from the original because of the various words that have been changed throughout time.

 

[Northman]

I don't take concepts, but present topics that the Lord gives me first to study and then present when He tells me to do so. If we continue to take words out of the Bible and replace them with other words like all these new Bibles seem to do then it is we who add to or take away from the word of God. How is anyone going to go back to the purest form of a word unless they have all the original Hebrew/Aramaic writings in their hands of what all the prophets and Apostles actually penned.

Well that's the thing. The people making the new Bibles aren't trying to confuse anyone, they are trying to wrestle us back to the Word because our languages have changed over time. So specifically in the case of the word in the KJV used to describe Saul's realization of Samuel, it uses the word perceive, as we have gone over already. The thing is, in the 1600s the word perceive didn't carry the connotation that perception could be wrong. That was added later. Some people reading the Bible later added that in as part of the meaning. So today, when someone who doesn't understand the culture and times and usage of language, looks at that word, they reverse apply the connotation that Saul can be mistaken. The guys translating the thing at the time couldn't have guessed that would happen. That's one of the beauties of ancient Hebrew, it just doesn't change.

How many of us can seriously say we can read the original Hebrew/Aramaic language or the Greek with complete accuracy by what is penned on papyrus or whatever they wrote on at that time. Unless you are a scholar fluent in these languages I doubt not to many of us could read that of the original. I will believe in what is written in the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible as I believe the more modern the translations the more is lost from the original because of the various words that have been changed throughout time.

There are plenty of copies of things floating around. Stuff like the dead sea scrolls confirm what was already there. Big brains have already tackled the job of collecting like terms and discerning what the language meant. The work is already all done for us if we just take the time to look. No PHD is required to see this stuff or to discern it. I too believe what is written in the KJV, but how the translators intended it, not what someone thinks it means way later.

In the beginning, you stressed the importance of word by word. I agreed and still do. Have you looked at the word use for Saul's perceived yet? Have you seen that whenever it is used in the Bible there is not only no confusion but also a deep personal knowing?

 

[K2CHRIST]

In this case, a familiar spirit is something the Hebrews called 'ob. This is not to be confused with God being familiar to you, or angels being your pals. The word is used to describe necromancy. The only reason the word familiar made it in there in the first place is it's use in latin, which roughly translates to household servant. Somewhere in England they figured these spirits actually served the people they were attached to so they were given that title in the translation.

I loved your information and is pretty much what I figured.

My Strong's Concordance shows is like this :owb, obe; from the same as 1 (appar. name); prop. a mumble, i.e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (vertriloquist, as from a jar): bottle, familiar spirit

Of course you look at that and think, what the heck? We have a 'mumble', something that sounds like a hollow like from a water-skin, and that winds up meaning a necromancer : a bottle, a familiar spirit?

It is really not that hard to understand though. Saul was looking for what today we would call a medium or perhaps a witch. And the more modern translations (those done since 1901) have it as medium. 1 Sam 28:7 [NASB] The Saul said to his servants "Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire."

So in the 1611 King James the Hebrew for what today we call a 'medium' was then called a woman with a familiar spirit. The Strong's general seems to go to the King James. I once saw a Concordance set to the NIV which also shows medium. I doubt it would show 'familiar spirit' tacked onto the end of owb.

Anyway, I liked your explanation which makes sense to me and is pretty much what I would figure. The problem with that think should be obvious for several reasons. First is that while the witch, medium, or necromancer may think a spirit serves them, it is more likely the opposite is occurring. The second, and what I believe people may miss, is that our Lord is King of kings and Lord of lords. The heavens and the earth are HIS!!!

So the woman who inquires for Saul starts seeking around in the spirit realm, and according to what is actually written in the Bible, Samuel shows up. The woman is thus startled and screams, because Samuel was not familiar to her. Then because of that she becomes aware the it is king Saul who had come to her. She put two and two together and figure that sense Samuel showed up, and Samuel was known to converse with the king, that man was king Saul. Samuel give accurate prophecy to Saul. Saul recognizes the accuracy of the prophecy and the prophet and the fear of God comes on him. But what amazes me in the story is how Saul acts.

Saul should have torn his clothes repented big time in sack cloth, and seriously been seeking the mercy of the Lord!!

Ps 78:34 When He killed them, then they sought Him, and returned and searched diligently for God

Why did God not speak to Saul, nor let other prophets speak words to Saul? Why did God have Samuel go and give a word concerning Saul's death to Saul? It seems to me that God was trying to get Saul to "searched diligently for God"! Yet how quickly does Saul turn to a witch, and even then Saul just folds over and dies instead of repenting in sake cloth and seeking the mercy of the Lord.

Ok, some others think God was so angry with Saul that He was still trying to get his attention, and that doesn't really match up with my understanding. And others, think it wasn't Samuel but some demonic spirit who spoke to Saul, but that is not actually what the Bible says, and I think it shows a poor understanding of God and the spirit realm. Yeah, you go to a medium or witch and you are not seeking God but any evil spirit, and you know it. And that is what you are going to get. But Saul was searching for God. He was doing it in all the wrong ways, but Saul wanted a word from God, but he hadn't repented. So the way I read it, He got a word from God but it was a deadly word. He needed to repent and start seeking the Lord in acceptable ways. He shouldn't have gone out into battle. God could change His mind.

He, king Saul, should have understood that God could change His mind. Remember how Saul got to king. Samuel told Saul some things and said they would happen in a few days, but God changed His mind and they all came to pass very quickly. So Saul had personally seen God change His mind, and that from something Samuel had said.

King Saul was a sad story that should have been anything but. The story serves as an example of the things not to do. But it also shows the power of God and His preeminence. God is in charge. He is in charge of all the heavens and the earth. God can shook a witch and take over quickly and fully in the spiritual realm. He can change kings, pronounce death, and can have mercy and change His mind because God is love and always has been. The question is; what is it going to take for us to seek the Lord in our lives and obey?

 

[Northman]

I loved your information and is pretty much what I figured.

My Strong's Concordance shows is like this :owb, obe; from the same as 1 (appar. name); prop. a mumble, i.e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (vertriloquist, as from a jar): bottle, familiar spirit

Of course you look at that and think, what the heck? We have a 'mumble', something that sounds like a hollow like from a water-skin, and that winds up meaning a necromancer : a bottle, a familiar spirit?

It is really not that hard to understand though. Saul was looking for what today we would call a medium or perhaps a witch. And the more modern translations (those done since 1901) have it as medium. 1 Sam 28:7 [NASB] The Saul said to his servants "Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire."

So in the 1611 King James the Hebrew for what today we call a 'medium' was then called a woman with a familiar spirit. The Strong's general seems to go to the King James. I once saw a Concordance set to the NIV which also shows medium. I doubt it would show 'familiar spirit' tacked onto the end of owb.

Anyway, I liked your explanation which makes sense to me and is pretty much what I would figure. The problem with that think should be obvious for several reasons. First is that while the witch, medium, or necromancer may think a spirit serves them, it is more likely the opposite is occurring. The second, and what I believe people may miss, is that our Lord is King of kings and Lord of lords. The heavens and the earth are HIS!!!

So the woman who inquires for Saul starts seeking around in the spirit realm, and according to what is actually written in the Bible, Samuel shows up. The woman is thus startled and screams, because Samuel was not familiar to her. Then because of that she becomes aware the it is king Saul who had come to her. She put two and two together and figure that sense Samuel showed up, and Samuel was known to converse with the king, that man was king Saul. Samuel give accurate prophecy to Saul. Saul recognizes the accuracy of the prophecy and the prophet and the fear of God comes on him. But what amazes me in the story is how Saul acts.

Saul should have torn his clothes repented big time in sack cloth, and seriously been seeking the mercy of the Lord!!

Ps 78:34 When He killed them, then they sought Him, and returned and searched diligently for God

Why did God not speak to Saul, nor let other prophets speak words to Saul? Why did God have Samuel go and give a word concerning Saul's death to Saul? It seems to me that God was trying to get Saul to "searched diligently for God"! Yet how quickly does Saul turn to a witch, and even then Saul just folds over and dies instead of repenting in sake cloth and seeking the mercy of the Lord.

Ok, some others think God was so angry with Saul that He was still trying to get his attention, and that doesn't really match up with my understanding. And others, think it wasn't Samuel but some demonic spirit who spoke to Saul, but that is not actually what the Bible says, and I think it shows a poor understanding of God and the spirit realm. Yeah, you go to a medium or witch and you are not seeking God but any evil spirit, and you know it. And that is what you are going to get. But Saul was searching for God. He was doing it in all the wrong ways, but Saul wanted a word from God, but he hadn't repented. So the way I read it, He got a word from God but it was a deadly word. He needed to repent and start seeking the Lord in acceptable ways. He shouldn't have gone out into battle. God could change His mind.

He, king Saul, should have understood that God could change His mind. Remember how Saul got to king. Samuel told Saul some things and said they would happen in a few days, but God changed His mind and they all came to pass very quickly. So Saul had personally seen God change His mind, and that from something Samuel had said.

King Saul was a sad story that should have been anything but. The story serves as an example of the things not to do. But it also shows the power of God and His preeminence. God is in charge. He is in charge of all the heavens and the earth. God can shook a witch and take over quickly and fully in the spiritual realm. He can change kings, pronounce death, and can have mercy and change His mind because God is love and always has been. The question is; what is it going to take for us to seek the Lord in our lives and obey?

That is understood and worded in a way I would use to present to and teach my own family.

 

[Northman]

We know Samuel was a prophet of God who had died, 1 Samuel 28:3, and even now lays in his grave as no one has ever ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven, John 3:13. Samuel could have never been the one who spoke to Saul from the grave for this is impossible and goes against scripture.

How is it impossible? The same sort of impossible like the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared?

 

[Northman]

Anyway, I liked your explanation which makes sense to me and is pretty much what I would figure. The problem with that think should be obvious for several reasons. First is that while the witch, medium, or necromancer may think a spirit serves them, it is more likely the opposite is occurring. The second, and what I believe people may miss, is that our Lord is King of kings and Lord of lords. The heavens and the earth are HIS!!!

I have no idea why those partaking in real "magic" would think the spirits served them. Your guess is as good as mine. Pander to ego? Outright deception? Who knows

 

[for_his_glory]

How is it impossible? The same sort of impossible like the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared?

Because Jesus made it pretty clear......................

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

 

[Northman]

Because Jesus said so......................John 3:

Jesus said that nobody ascended to heaven. How does that somehow mean that God was incapable of letting Samuel speak from the grave? The practice of communicating with the dead is called necromancy.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well that's the thing. The people making the new Bibles aren't trying to confuse anyone, they are trying to wrestle us back to the Word because our languages have changed over time. So specifically in the case of the word in the KJV used to describe Saul's realization of Samuel, it uses the word perceive, as we have gone over already. The thing is, in the 1600s the word perceive didn't carry the connotation that perception could be wrong. That was added later. Some people reading the Bible later added that in as part of the meaning. So today, when someone who doesn't understand the culture and times and usage of language, looks at that word, they reverse apply the connotation that Saul can be mistaken. The guys translating the thing at the time couldn't have guessed that would happen. That's one of the beauties of ancient Hebrew, it just doesn't change.


There are plenty of copies of things floating around. Stuff like the dead sea scrolls confirm what was already there. Big brains have already tackled the job of collecting like terms and discerning what the language meant. The work is already all done for us if we just take the time to look. No PHD is required to see this stuff or to discern it. I too believe what is written in the KJV, but how the translators intended it, not what someone thinks it means way later.

In the beginning, you stressed the importance of word by word. I agreed and still do. Have you looked at the word use for Saul's perceived yet? Have you seen that whenever it is used in the Bible there is not only no confusion but also a deep personal knowing?

The word perceived in 1 Samuel 28:14 is root word for the Hebrew word yada (pronounced yaw-dah) which means to know. The Jerusalem Bible, which I also study from, uses the word knew.

Now let's read what is written.

1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

The woman at first did not recognize she was speaking to Saul as he came to her in a disguise. She asked whom shall she bring up from the spirit world and he said bring me up Samuel. When she saw this demon spirit who took on the form of Samuel she cried with a loud voice, (Jerusalem Bible says, giving a great cry). After seeing the form of Samuel this demon spirit took on she then recognize this man in a disguise to actually be Saul. She feared him for what he asked her to do knowing that he put away all those that had familar spirits. This is why Saul told her not to be afraid as he was not going to put her away as he needed her to conjure up this familar spirit thinking it would actually be Samuel himself.

We read on that Saul asked her what form is he of and the woman described him as an old man that came up and is covered in a mantle (robe). Saul only knew it to be Samuel more so by the voice that spoke to him as he had to ask the woman what he looked like and when this familar spirit spoke Saul heard the voice of Samuel and stooped to the ground and bowed himself as the voice spoke to him.

This is how I read it and understand it to only be a familar spirit that was raised up by this medium from the spirit realm that took on the form of Samuel as Saul only recognized the voice that spoke to him.
Again Ecc 12:7 and John 3:16.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus said that nobody ascended to heaven. How does that somehow mean that God was incapable of letting Samuel speak from the grave? The practice of communicating with the dead is called necromancy.

By what you are saying here you are actually putting God in the same category of the practice of witchcraft, sorcery and all things of black magic as this is what necromancy means.

When God says something he doesn't turn around and change his commands. God meant what is written in 1 Samuel 28:6 for after all we read in 1 Chronicles10:13 where God actually turned away from Saul and slew him for his disobedience towards God's commands.

 

[Northman]

The word perceived in 1 Samuel 28:14 is root word for the Hebrew word yada (pronounced yaw-dah) which means to know. The Jerusalem Bible, which I also study from, uses the word knew.

Yes I mentioned this word already. Perfect start. Where I am stuck, according to your thinking, is how this word turns from know, to thinks he knows. It's use is a definite, not an "oh you can be wrong".

Now let's read what is written.

This part I'm sure we have all been over many times.

The woman at first did not recognize she was speaking to Saul as he came to her in a disguise. She asked whom shall she bring up from the spirit world and he said bring me up Samuel. When she saw this demon spirit who took on the form of Samuel she cried with a loud voice, (Jerusalem Bible says, giving a great cry). After seeing the form of Samuel this demon spirit took on she then recognize this man in a disguise to actually be Saul. She feared him for what he asked her to do knowing that he put away all those that had familar spirits. This is why Saul told her not to be afraid as he was not going to put her away as he needed her to conjure up this familar spirit thinking it would actually be Samuel himself.

We read on that Saul asked her what form is he of and the woman described him as an old man that came up and is covered in a mantle (robe). Saul only knew it to be Samuel more so by the voice that spoke to him as he had to ask the woman what he looked like and when this familar spirit spoke Saul heard the voice of Samuel and stooped to the ground and bowed himself as the voice spoke to him.

Some of this stuff isn't written. I'm asking in essence where you get it from. The text does not read that a demon spirit came up. It says Samuel. It says only Saul was in disguise. It says nothing about the spirit of Samuel being a demon in disguise. Are you under the impression that Saul could have actually seen if he hadn't bowed down?

This is how I read it and understand it to only be a familar spirit that was raised up by this medium from the spirit realm that took on the form of Samuel as Saul only recognized the voice that spoke to him.

But familiar spirits aren't "raised up" out of a spirit realm, they are attached to people where they are. You said you knew about them.

Again Ecc 12:7 and John 3:16.

I'm not sure what you think these verses build the case for or against when it comes to dealing with necromancy.

 

[Northman]

By what you are saying here you are actually putting God in the same category of the practice of witchcraft, sorcery and all things of black magic as this is what necromancy means.

When God says something he doesn't turn around and change his commands. God meant what is written in 1 Samuel 28:6 for after all we read in 1 Chronicles10:13 where God actually turned away from Saul and slew him for his disobedience towards God's commands.

I'm not actually saying what you are saying I am. God outlawed necromancy like he outlawed murder. Saul went through an illegal process to be able to talk to Samuel. There is no supernatural blanket barring necromancy just like there is no supernatural blanket barring murder.

God has and does indeed change his mind when it comes to mercy. We don't even need to post scripture containing that. The text does accurately say God wouldn't answer Saul. It never says that God would never speak to him again. That idea is another that people have to come up with on their own.

 

[for_his_glory]

Northman, we have hashed this over and over showing each other what we believe. Anything more would just be repeating ourselves as we have both discussed what we believe and I truly do not believe we need to keep dragging this out. I do thank you for the discussion and God bless you

 

[K2CHRIST]

The woman at first did not recognize she was speaking to Saul as he came to her in a disguise. She asked whom shall she bring up from the spirit world and he said bring me up Samuel. When she saw this demon spirit who took on the form of Samuel she cried with a loud voice, (Jerusalem Bible says, giving a great cry). After seeing the form of Samuel this demon spirit took on she then recognize this man in a disguise to actually be Saul.

Clearly the Bible reads "Samuel" and did not say it was a demon spirit taking on the form of Samuel!!

Second, if this woman was doing this thing of dealing with 'familiar spirits', that is bringing up evil spirits pretending to be someone else like you say, why then would she scream? She would have been used to it!! So she couldn't have been surprised. But if indeed Samuel showed up, like the Bible actually reads, that would have shocked her, and she was clearer shocked and screamed.

As for seeking after the dead, we shouldn't do it. The Lord does not want that done and I can think of a number of good reason for it myself. King Saul knew that and did it anyway. Yet that doesn't mean they can't be heard from, if you have the ability to hear with your spiritual ears.

Gen 4:10 He said, "What have you done? Your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.

Yeah the body decomposes but there is something still crying out and it can be heard. Jesus told the story of the rich man in hell having a conversation with Abraham. Moses and Elijah appear on the mountain for transfiguration. So are they asleep? Perhaps they could very well be classified as asleep. Samuel, and again it does read 'Samuel' not a spirit pretending to be Samuel, asked why Saul disturbed him. Perhaps he was sleeping. I don't like it when someone disturbs my sleep, yet strangely I often find the Lord waking me up in the middle of the night to talk to me about something. Also I sometime get dreams during my sleep, and even dreams that are obviously from the Lord. So what's with that communication? How does it all really work? Anyway, it does and communication can go on in your sleep, or by disturbing your sleep.

So since the Bible reads that "Samuel" showed up and gave a word of prophecy to Saul, I see no reason to doubt what is actually written in the Bible.



Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

I find the story of king Saul to be such a sad story. Of course Saul did so many things wrong, but we do things wrong. Still, if it is written that if you seek the Lord with all thy heart and with all they soul you will find Him, doesn't that still have to be true? So if another verse says that the Lord was not answering Saul, does that verse nullify the above verse? It can't be. So you could never read the Bible correctly if you think that one verse nullifies another verse. Sad and not too wise king Saul was looking to get a word from the Lord. So much so that foolishly he put his soul on the line and went to a medium to try to get that word from God through Samuel. Didn't God have to let Samuel give Saul a word if for no other reason than to fulfill the above word of God through Moses?

The Bible says Samuel appeared, and I see no reason for the Bible to be wrong. The fact that the Lord had not been talking to him, doesn't mean He couldn't or wouldn't. The thinking that dead people are somehow sleeping doesn't mean that God could let Samuel's sleep be disturbed, and Samuel clearly stated that he was disturbed. And the fact that the woman medium deals with demonic spirits does mean that God could impose Himself into that situation. It would just mean that she would probably be a bit surprised, which she was. I see not reason to believe the Bible is not correct as written, and in fact it seems to be written as one should expect in the circumstances.

Foolish Saul was searching with all his heart and soul for a word from God, even in all the wrong places, but God was still faithful to what He has said and sent Samuel. That surprised the woman medium and gave her an instant awareness of who Saul actually was. The prophecy was right and the devil is a liar. Prophecy being right is one was the Lord is validated through the prophet.

What I think we see here is the classic story of foolish men and women doing the wrong things, but a faithful God even in those situations. Did Saul pay a price of death? Yes, but it has been given to men to die once. Moses died and before crossing over to the promise land, because Moses didn't speak to the people like he was supposed to. But Moses was seen on the mountain of transfiguration. I wouldn't be surprised to find foolish king Saul in heaven someday.

 

[Northman]

Northman, we have hashed this over and over showing each other what we believe. Anything more would just be repeating ourselves as we have both discussed what we believe and I truly do not believe we need to keep dragging this out. I do thank you for the discussion and God bless you

I truly wish it was actually hashed out. Discussing beliefs in a study forum without the why being answered leaves people confused, especially since the op was allegedly focused on word for word meanings.

I will say something I don't normally do, for the sake of true growth. If you are 100% certain it is Him that is prompting you to talk about these things after you have done your studies, you might not want to assume He is saying that because you are correct in your thoughts and they need to be taught to people.

Take care

 

[ezra]

i not for one second believe this was Samuel.. no place in the scriptures has a person come back from the dead except Christ . this was nothing more than a counterfeit spirit
2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works

Foolish Saul was searching with all his heart and soul for a word from God, even in all the wrong places, but God was still faithful to what He has said and sent Samuel. That surprised the woman medium and gave her an instant awareness of who Saul actually was. The prophecy was right and the devil is a liar. Prophecy being right is one was the Lord is validated through the prophet.

i disagree God does not use witchcraft nor has he ever . this rates up there with Going to the graveyard to talk to the person in the grave

 

[K2CHRIST]

i not for one second believe this was Samuel.. no place in the scriptures has a person come back from the dead except Christ . this was nothing more than a counterfeit spirit
2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
i disagree God does not use witchcraft nor has he ever . this rates up there with Going to the graveyard to talk to the person in the grave

Are you thinking Samuel actually takes on flesh?

This doesn't make any sense to me. Clearly Moses and Elijah make an appearance on the mountain of transfiguration. That is in the Scriptures, so if you think Samuel showing up in a spirit sense is Samuel coming back from the dead, then so is Moses and Elijah showing up on the mountain of transfiguration them coming back from the dead.

And God is not using witchcraft but the woman, instructions from king Saul, is seeking Samuel and a Samuel she doesn't realize is Samuel the prophet. Samuel showing up in the spirit and giving prophecy is not due to God performing witchcraft, but it might be and appears to be Him responding to someone doing something they shouldn't. Again, the Bible says it was Samuel, not a spirit pretending to be Samuel. Anyone writing this would certainly understanding the importance of clarifying the situation. So the woman, king Saul, and the person writing this all believe it is Samuel. So if we truly believe all Scriptures was inspired by God, it was Samuel.

What I fail to understand, and perhaps this is just me, but I can not understand how anyone can practice hearing the Lord, listen to the ministering angels the Lord sends, and regularly tests the spirit as instructed and thus find that there are spiritual being that don't know the Lord who are trying to also influence you, and yet not have an understanding that things are happening from both sides in the spiritual realm which can be heard by you? And even if a Christian wasn't doing that, you would think that they would be a bit more aware of the testimonies from other Christians that are out there. I just got done picking up and listening to a nice little audio book of 'Heaven is for Real', where a small child gives a testimony of meeting people in heaven. I have seen other testimonies and books similar to that. I liked another book called "Within Heavens Gates", and again I have hear of more of these testimonies.

So we read in the Bible that "Samuel" shows up in the spiritual and the woman and king Saul hear (obviously with there spiritual ears) what Samuel has to say. The prophecy comes to pass, the Bible doesn't say it is an evil spirit (and Satan is a liar), and we can't accept what the Bible says and somehow think that the Bible was saying Samuel came back form the dead?? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[ezra]

Moses and Elijah make an appearance on the mountain of transfiguration. That is in the Scriptures,

completely different although i had forgot about them 2 .with these 2 this is a God ordained event seeking familiar spirits is not
Hebrews 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

but no i believe the Bible but i stay hold to it being a counterfeit spirit ..note i am referencing spirit not flesh Satan is a spirit ..he comes in many forms the first time a serpent

The word familiar is from the Latin familiaris, meaning a "household servant," and is intended to express the idea that sorcerers had spirits as their servants ready to obey their commands. Those attempting to contact the dead, even to this day, usually have some sort of spirit guide who communicates with them. These are familiar spirits.
Leviticus 20:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.