Father Forgive Them....They Do Not Know What They Are Doing

[WIP]

Interesing that you should totally miss the point.

Both servants pleaded for mercy, both servants were sorry.
In using this parable you make the point very clearly that there must be repentance.

Were they both really sorry? The first man was forgiven his debt and yet he failed to forgive the other of his debt and his forgiveness was therefore taken away. I will also submit Matthew 21:28-32 for consideration.

 

[WIP]

Where have I said that we must force people to repent and conversely where does it say that Christians must be forced to forgive?

Where have I said that a Christian suffering injuries must harbour hatred, ill-will etc.

I have repeatedly put the example of Jesus on the cross as what a Christian should do when an offender cannot or will not repent.
That we should hand the situation and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.

How can one not harbor ill-will and yet not forgive? We are Christians and because we are Christians we have been forgiven and therefore we are called to forgive, are we not?

Allow me to offer Matthew 6:12.

 

[Who Me]

Were they both really sorry? The first man was forgiven his debt and yet he failed to forgive the other of his debt and his forgiveness was therefore taken away. I will also submit Matthew 21:28-32 for consideration.

That the first servant was not willing to offer forgiveness to the 2nd is clear, whether he was truely sorry we don't know.
What we know is he pleaded for mercy and was given mercy.

 

[Who Me]

How can one not harbor ill-will and yet not forgive? We are Christians and because we are Christians we have been forgiven and therefore we are called to forgive, are we not?

Allow me to offer Matthew 6:12.

In the same way that someone who has been cruely hurt can forgive without harbouring resentment or ill will.

I would say that when Christians hand a situation and there feelings over to God they are less likely to retain bad feelings because they are trusting God to deal with them and with the offender.
To forgive without any repentance means forgiving in ones own strength.

 

[WIP]

That the first servant was not willing to offer forgiveness to the 2nd is clear, whether he was truely sorry we don't know.
What we know is he pleaded for mercy and was given mercy.

Yes, mercy was not denied when asked, which is what I've been saying all along. We are not to deny forgiveness when asked.

 

[WIP]

In the same way that someone who has been cruely hurt can forgive without harbouring resentment or ill will.

I would say that when Christians hand a situation and there feelings over to God they are less likely to retain bad feelings because they are trusting God to deal with them and with the offender.
To forgive without any repentance means forgiving in ones own strength.

Agreed but that's not what I was saying. If can one be unwilling to forgive and yet not harbor ill-will?

 

[WIP]

Where have I said that we must force people to repent and conversely where does it say that Christians must be forced to forgive?

Where have I said that a Christian suffering injuries must harbour hatred, ill-will etc.

I have repeatedly put the example of Jesus on the cross as what a Christian should do when an offender cannot or will not repent.
That we should hand the situation and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.

Okay, so let's look at another example from Jesus where He did forgive without the offender asking for forgiveness.

I know that you know how Peter proclaimed with total confidence and commitment that he would never abandon Jesus - even unto death (Luke 22:31-34). Yet, when the time came he totally abandoned and denied Jesus, not once but three times. But then, after Jesus had arisen, three times He asked Peter, "Peter, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" (John 21:15-19).

Nowhere in Scripture does it record Peter asking for forgiveness nor does Scripture record Jesus even bringing it up. Jesus had forgiven Peter already.

 

[Who Me]

Yes, mercy was not denied when asked, which is what I've been saying all along. We are not to deny forgiveness when asked.

Asking for mercy is repentance.
I have never said we are not to forgive those who say they are sorry.
All I have said is we do not have to forgive those who do not say sorry.

It is the demand that Christian MUST forgive those who are unrepentant I have been posting against.

 

[Who Me]

Agreed but that's not what I was saying. If can one be unwilling to forgive and yet not harbor ill-will?

Because you do not see the differnce in handing a situation and ones feelings over to God and refusing to forgive.
If one is able to hand a horrible situation over for God to deal with, one has also to surrender all ones feelings about that situation.

 

[Who Me]

Okay, so let's look at another example from Jesus where He did forgive without the offender asking for forgiveness.

I know that you know how Peter proclaimed with total confidence and commitment that he would never abandon Jesus - even unto death (Luke 22:31-34). Yet, when the time came he totally abandoned and denied Jesus, not once but three times. But then, after Jesus had arisen, three times He asked Peter, "Peter, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" (John 21:15-19).

Nowhere in Scripture does it record Peter asking for forgiveness nor does Scripture record Jesus even bringing it up. Jesus had forgiven Peter already.

And Peter went outside and wept bitterly.

What do you supose was going through his mind, that he should do this?

 

[WIP]

And Peter went outside and wept bitterly.

What do you supose was going through his mind, that he should do this?

I do not know and Scripture does not say. For selfish reasons, he could have been weeping because he realized how much of a hypocrite he had been and he felt sorry for himself because he let himself down. He also could have been weeping and praying for forgiveness of course. We just don't know and all we can do is speculate.

 

[WIP]

Because you do not see the differnce in handing a situation and ones feelings over to God and refusing to forgive.
If one is able to hand a horrible situation over for God to deal with, one has also to surrender all ones feelings about that situation.

I understand what you're saying. Let's consider the heart of God. Jesus forgave Peter even though, for all we know, Peter did not ask for it. Jesus died for us even while we were sinners and did not ask for it. God is a compassionate, kind-hearted, loving, caring, and forgiving God. As Christians we want to be like Him so does refusing to forgive demonstrate the heart of Jesus?

 

[MyAdonai]

Part 3 of 7

Luke 23:34-36
34But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
35And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
36The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,


Jesus of Nazareth is looking down from the cross just after he was crucified between two criminals. He sees the soldiers who have mocked, scourged, and tortured him, and who have just nailed him to the cross. He probably remembers those who have sentenced him - Caiaphas and the high priests of the Sanhedrin. Pilate realized it was out of envy that they handed him over.
Matthew 27:18
Mark 15:10

But is Jesus not also thinking of his Apostles and companions who have deserted him, to Peter who has denied him three times, to the fickle crowd who only days before praised him on his entrance to Jerusalem, and then days later demanded his crucifixion?

Is He also thinking of us, who often forget him in our lives?

Does he react angrily? No! At the height of his physical suffering, his love prevails and He asks His Father to forgive! Could there ever be greater irony? Jesus asks his Father to forgive, but it is by His very Sacrifice on the Cross that mankind is able to be forgiven.

Right up to his final hours on earth, Jesus preaches forgiveness.

He teaches forgiveness in the Lord's prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"....
Matthew 6:12

When asked by Peter, how many times should we forgive someone, Jesus answers seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21-22

He forgives the paralytic at Capernaum.
Mark 2:3-12

The sinful woman who anointed him in the home of Simon the Pharisee.
Luke 7:37-48


The adulteress caught in the act and about to be stoned.
John 8:1-11

During the Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, Jesus tells them to drink of the cup:
"Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins"
Matthew 26:27-28

And even following His Resurrection, His first act is to commission his disciples to forgive: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
John 20:22-23


Have the above fulfilled O.T. prophecies?
Why do you believe forgiving is so important?
Should we always forgive?

I often wonder about this subject. In Luke 17:3 it say's "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying “I repent,” you must forgive them."

God Himself requires repentance. How can one forgive somebody who sees no wrong in there sin against you?

 

[WIP]

I often wonder about this subject. In Luke 17:3 it say's "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying “I repent,” you must forgive them."

God Himself requires repentance. How can one forgive somebody who sees no wrong in there sin against you?

Because when it comes to us, forgiveness is not only for them, it is for the forgiver too. If I don't forgive, am I not harboring negative feelings toward that person? And then, if I am harboring negative feelings toward that person it can eat me up inside but not only that, Jesus did say...

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." Matthew 5:7 NKJV
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." Matthew 5:9 NKJV

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:13-16 NKJV

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Matthew 5:22-26 ESV

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you." Matthew 5:38-42 ESV

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:43-45 ESV

If we hold on to the hurts, how is that demonstrating love for those who have hurt us?

When I divorced my ex-wife I was extremely hurt. I was in so much anguish I even attempted suicide. Because of her infidelities, yes plural, I hated her with a hate I never knew I could feel. I carried that hate in my heart for years until I finally decided that I could forgive her. It should also be noted I was not a Christian during all of this but coming to terms with forgiving her lifted a huge weight off my shoulders.

 

[WIP]

I often wonder about this subject. In Luke 17:3 it say's "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying “I repent,” you must forgive them."

God Himself requires repentance. How can one forgive somebody who sees no wrong in there sin against you?

God Himself is God. He is perfect and righteous and we are not. Because we are not perfectly righteous, we are incapable of righteous anger and judgment. There are some things that He asks of us that are for our own good and I believe this is one of them.

 

[Who Me]

I understand what you're saying. Let's consider the heart of God. Jesus forgave Peter even though, for all we know, Peter did not ask for it. Jesus died for us even while we were sinners and did not ask for it. God is a compassionate, kind-hearted, loving, caring, and forgiving God. As Christians we want to be like Him so does refusing to forgive demonstrate the heart of Jesus?

Now we are getting to the heart of the problem.
A lack of understanding about the gospel.

'Jesus died for us while we were sinners and did not ask for it'.

Yes Jesus's birth, life, death and resurrection was planned by God before the creation of the world.

No we did not ask him to do it, but we do have to say sorry.
God does not forgive those who do not say sorry to him. He has judged them and will punish them.

No where have I said refuse to forgive. No where does the bible say that and everyehere the bible teaches that there has to be repentance for sins.

Even Peter when he dienied Jesus wept bitterly. What do you think that means, possible that he regretted what he said, was sorry for them, I think it reasonable to say he repented of his sin and we know by Jesus's reinstating him that Jesus had forgiven him.

This is what is always needed.

For those who will not or cannot say sorry.
It is not that we refuse to forgive but we recognise there refusal/inability and move on by handing there sin against us, our feelings in the matter over to God for him to deal with. That is in his wisedom and justice to act on the offender and in his mercy and grace to heal our wounded spirit and feelings.

This is not deep theology but basic Christianity.

 

[Who Me]

I do not know and Scripture does not say. For selfish reasons, he could have been weeping because he realized how much of a hypocrite he had been and he felt sorry for himself because he let himself down. He also could have been weeping and praying for forgiveness of course. We just don't know and all we can do is speculate.

I've already replied to your later reply.

One comment.
For someone arguing that Christians MUST forgive No Matter what.
This is a strange attitude to have, to assume that he was only feeling self pity.
Are we not to give those who offend/sin against us the be4nefit of the doubt?

 

[WIP]

Now we are getting to the heart of the problem.
A lack of understanding about the gospel.

'Jesus died for us while we were sinners and did not ask for it'.

Yes Jesus's birth, life, death and resurrection was planned by God before the creation of the world.

No we did not ask him to do it, but we do have to say sorry.
God does not forgive those who do not say sorry to him. He has judged them and will punish them.

No where have I said refuse to forgive. No where does the bible say that and everyehere the bible teaches that there has to be repentance for sins.

Even Peter when he dienied Jesus wept bitterly. What do you think that means, possible that he regretted what he said, was sorry for them, I think it reasonable to say he repented of his sin and we know by Jesus's reinstating him that Jesus had forgiven him.

This is what is always needed.

For those who will not or cannot say sorry.
It is not that we refuse to forgive but we recognise there refusal/inability and move on by handing there sin against us, our feelings in the matter over to God for him to deal with. That is in his wisedom and justice to act on the offender and in his mercy and grace to heal our wounded spirit and feelings.

This is not deep theology but basic Christianity.

I think we disagree on what repentance is. To admit fault or apologize is not repentance. One can do that without repenting. Repentance by my understanding is to turn around or turn away from sin. It's a life-changing thing whereby the sinner not only is sorry but changes lifestyle such as to avoid doing it again.

Here's an example to help explain my view. There are men that abuse their wives. Afterwards they will very often apologize and they may even be genuinely sorry for what they have done. But they have not repented. This becomes extremely evident the next time they blow up. It's a cycle of abuse, feeling sorry, apologizing, abuse, feeling sorry, apologizing, abuse, .... but no repentance takes place. It's when they finally seek the help they need and learn how to manage their emotions and behavior such that they never abuse again that they finally experience repentance.

 

[WIP]

Now we are getting to the heart of the problem.
A lack of understanding about the gospel.

'Jesus died for us while we were sinners and did not ask for it'.

Yes Jesus's birth, life, death and resurrection was planned by God before the creation of the world.

No we did not ask him to do it, but we do have to say sorry.
God does not forgive those who do not say sorry to him. He has judged them and will punish them.

No where have I said refuse to forgive. No where does the bible say that and everyehere the bible teaches that there has to be repentance for sins.

Even Peter when he dienied Jesus wept bitterly. What do you think that means, possible that he regretted what he said, was sorry for them, I think it reasonable to say he repented of his sin and we know by Jesus's reinstating him that Jesus had forgiven him.

This is what is always needed.

For those who will not or cannot say sorry.
It is not that we refuse to forgive but we recognise there refusal/inability and move on by handing there sin against us, our feelings in the matter over to God for him to deal with. That is in his wisedom and justice to act on the offender and in his mercy and grace to heal our wounded spirit and feelings.

This is not deep theology but basic Christianity.

Jesus asking the Father to forgive them wouldn't be possible if He himself was holding resentment in His heart. Steven, when he was stoned asked Jesus not to hold it against his executioners. Unless he also forgave them, he wouldn't be able to do this because he would still be bitter in his own heart.

Thank you for your thoughts but I'm just not able to agree with your position.

 

[Who Me]

I think we disagree on what repentance is. To admit fault or apologize is not repentance. One can do that without repenting. Repentance by my understanding is to turn around or turn away from sin. It's a life-changing thing whereby the sinner not only is sorry but changes lifestyle such as to avoid doing it again.

Here's an example to help explain my view. There are men that abuse their wives. Afterwards they will very often apologize and they may even be genuinely sorry for what they have done. But they have not repented. This becomes extremely evident the next time they blow up. It's a cycle of abuse, feeling sorry, apologizing, abuse, feeling sorry, apologizing, abuse, .... but no repentance takes place. It's when they finally seek the help they need and learn how to manage their emotions and behavior such that they never abuse again that they finally experience repentance.

Yes and as both quotes on forgiveness in Luke and Matt say if he does it again and repents I Must forgive him/her.

I don'[t think it matters how great or small the sin is just as God keeps on forgiving us so we forgive others who are sorry.

Yes repentance means change. Be honest have you changed from all your sins?
I know that while I don't want to sin, I frequently fail.

That some Christians are in a distructive way of life shows the harm sin does and the need for help in changing that lifestyle.