Father Forgive Them....They Do Not Know What They Are Doing

[Who Me]

I'll do you one better.
When I was 22 and trying to kindle my relationship back with God after the birth of my first child, my then wife ( now ex) realized she was pregnant with my step brothers child (which was unknown to me at the time) and wanted an abortion. We fought about it but she was determined to have the abortion the morning she was scheduled, I left the house and made her take care of our child. I was making it difficult for her.

Two hours later my 3 month old child was dead. There is ample reason to believe my ex suffocated her. Her death was declared as SIDS.

I hated God more than I hated my ex. Ironically, I was able to forgive her before I could forgive God, which really is to say I didn't really know God to begin with.

Perhaps God just put it in my nature to forgive those who I love. But it's forgiving those I don't love, much like the case you describe with a hit and run that I really struggled with for some time.

Forgiveness doesn't release the offender from their trespasses simply because they own the repentance part. They have to repent. Our job in forgiving them means their trespass doesn't live rent free in our head tormenting us. For me, I've still got work to do, but I know its Jesus who gives me the strength because I trust that he is doing a work in me that brings a peace beyond understanding.

I am truely sorry to hear of this.

May I ask how would you have reacted if someone told you that you Had to forgive your x?

It is the insistance that Christians Must forgive that I object to.

 

[Who Me]

Where did you get that from by what I said? Of course we have to repent in order for God to forgive our trespasses, Mark 11:25, 26.

And it also applies to those who sin against us.

 

[Christ_empowered]

im not so sure those we forgive must repent in order to obtain forgiveness from us. The Lord has provided me with what I need, in Him, to forgive a lot of people who are probably either a) completely unconverted or b) hypocritical to the max, modern day Pharisees to the core....

as far as I--the creature--know, the people I've been graced with power in Him to forgive may remain in categories a and/or b till the day they die, despite my prayers for them and Christ's work in their hearts, lives, etc. it is what it is. and yet...

I've been forgiven a -massive debt- . How can I not forgive their small(er) debts, or even put conditions on releasing them?

Matthew 18:21-35

 

[stovebolts]

I am truely sorry to hear of this.

May I ask how would you have reacted if someone told you that you Had to forgive your x?

It is the insistance that Christians Must forgive that I object to.

I had accepted Jesus when I was 13. I was in Juvenile for crimes I had committed. When I was baptized while in Juvenile, I understood that not only was I giving my life to God, but I also understood all of my sins were forgiven. For me, it was unfathomable that God could forgive me.

So I already understood the idea of forgiveness and because I was forgiven, I knew the release and relief it gave. So, I started forgiving others as I had been forgiven and I felt the difference it made.

All that to say nobody told me I had to forgive because I had already tasted and reaped the rewards forgiving others brought.

I'll be honest, I hated my ex and I had to move away so I would not act out the hateful things I wanted to do to her. I wanted her to die a slow, painful death and I wanted to be there to see her dying breath thinking it would bring me pleasure.

I was at a fork in the road. Who did I want to become, because I didn't like who I was.

Through distancing myself, I worked hard at forgiving her. I wrote a letter to her knowing I would never send it forgiving her. In all, it took maybe 10 years to drive the hate out of my soul and another 15 to wish her well. It didn't happen overnight. Several years ago we came face to face. She was scared.... Rightly so and had tremendous guilt over our daughter that only her, I and another individual knew about her deed.

We hugged and talked about it using code... But it was understood, and she had heard me forgive her for everything. However, it's not like everything was forgotten, it just wasn't used against each other. We found peace and closure.

To answer your question, nobody has to do anything. Really, you don't have to pay your taxes either. But there is a consequence to not doing either and both incur interest the longer you withhold. You are, bitterness sets in when you don't work toward forgiveness. Put it this way, love always hopes and it keeps no record of wrong. Loving isn't easy. What's easy is hatred, and you feel empowered with the rush hatred brings. But that rush comes with a price as it takes a physical toll on your body and your mental health slides to because your never truly at peace because your always trying to hide from the pain you carry. Forgiveness calms and soothes the pain and eventually, true peace is found.

We all have a choice, but we ought to know our options and the road each one entails.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry I cannot follow your reasoning.

We don't judge, in the sense that we give reward or punishment, and when someone has said sorry for offending us we have no need for judgement.

All sin is already condemned. see John 3:18
Just as all sin is already forgiven through Jesus's atoning death and resurrection. It is waiting for repentance to be applied to the sinner.

Why do you expect Christians to do what God does not do?
That is forgive those who have not repented.
Let's be real how many posting here actually have any serious offence done against them.

Sin is already condemned in those who are not Christ own and have never repented for they do not believe in Christ which is the full context of John 3:18.

I never said we are to judge another for their sin as that belongs to God alone. I thought you said that about judging or maybe it was someone else. Anyway, we don't judge those who sin against us, but forgive and pray for them. Whether or not they ask us to forgive them, which we need to regardless, it's the fact that we hold a clean heart in forgiving, plus that of Mark 11:25, 26.

God waits for all to repent and turn back to Him as His grace is for everyone who will believe by faith which is His Son Christ Jesus who is our faith in whom we believe in, but not everyone will repent and comeback to God.

You asked: Why do you expect Christians to do what God does not do?

Does God in His love, patience and longsuffering not wait for all to repent as He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9, and those who come with a heart of repentance to Him are forgiven immediately?

Just as we have turned back to God who when we repented of our sin was quick to forgive us so should we be quick to forgive those who sin against us, but not only forgive them, but to pray for them that they too would come back to God. If they reject our forgiving them then that is on them as we have made our heart pure before the Lord, which again Mark 11:25, 26.

I could make a list of serious offences made against me in my life that could have caused another jail time, but no matter how heinous the act was I forgave them.

 

[for_his_glory]

And it also applies to those who sin against us.

No, it does not as we do not put demands on others to make them repent as we are only to forgive, love and pray for those who oppress us. God puts demands of obedience on us to come to Him with a humbled heart of repentance so He can forgive us our trespasses. We are not God, but need to be obedient to forgive others, to love others and pray for them.

 

[Randy]

I'll do you one better.
When I was 22 and trying to kindle my relationship back with God after the birth of my first child, my then wife ( now ex) realized she was pregnant with my step brothers child (which was unknown to me at the time) and wanted an abortion. We fought about it but she was determined to have the abortion the morning she was scheduled, I left the house and made her take care of our child. I was making it difficult for her.

Two hours later my 3 month old child was dead. There is ample reason to believe my ex suffocated her. Her death was declared as SIDS.

I hated God more than I hated my ex. Ironically, I was able to forgive her before I could forgive God, which really is to say I didn't really know God to begin with.

Perhaps God just put it in my nature to forgive those who I love. But it's forgiving those I don't love, much like the case you describe with a hit and run that I really struggled with for some time.

Forgiveness doesn't release the offender from their trespasses simply because they own the repentance part. They have to repent. Our job in forgiving them means their trespass doesn't live rent free in our head tormenting us. For me, I've still got work to do, but I know its Jesus who gives me the strength because I trust that he is doing a work in me that brings a peace beyond understanding.

I don't think you thought this through as you stated.
You forgave God? No one loves more than the Father. No fault can be found in Him. God does not tempt people to do evil. It was the Father who sent Jesus.

Perhaps "you repented" before God for hating Him as you recognized that behavior or fault was in your heart when you forgave your first wife.

Jesus is the judge. He gives time to repent. Read His messages to the 7 churches. Jesus is not weak.

As it is written:
The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[stovebolts]

I don't think you thought this through as you stated.
You forgave God? No one loves more than the Father. No fault can be found in Him. God does not tempt people to do evil. It was the Father who sent Jesus.

Perhaps "you repented" before God for hating Him as you recognized that behavior or fault was in your heart when you forgave your first wife.

Jesus is the judge. He gives time to repent. Read His messages to the 7 churches. Jesus is not weak.

As it is written:
The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

If you read carefully, I said I didn't really know God at the time.... The relationship was in its infancy when that occurred. I blamed God at the time because I was looking for him to save me from the pain of this world. 40 something year's later and the relationship is still maturing.

It's not uncommon for people to hate God when great tragedy occurs in their life. Thanks be to God he just looks down and says, you don't know what your talking about... So I forgive you anyway...cause your my child, and I'll always love you, even if you hate me.

 

[WIP]

A society in which repentancy was a key element in the sacrifical system of worship teaches everyone in that society that repentance is a big important thing.
So big, so much a part of life that it does not need to be mentioned.
Luke also talked in ch 17 about forgiveness, how we should talk to them and if they repented forgive them, no matter how often they offend us.

The bible does not contradict its self, we have to apply the principals it teaches.

The passage you quote assumes that there is repentace, and in that case we MUST forgive.

I don't know if this is what you mean but what I'm hearing in your words is that we are to refuse to forgive unless the one that offends us repents. I don't believe this is what the Bible teaches either. I believe you might be taking it to the other extreme. What I believe we are told is that if a brother or sister asks for our forgiveness we are not to withhold it. But I also believe we are to forgive because Christ forgave us for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Scripture also tells us not to hold on to hatred or anger for Ephesians 4:26 tells us not to let the sun go down on our anger. Luke 6:27-42 tells us to love our enemies, do good to them, bless them, and pray for them. It seems forgiving them would be an appropriate step.

Here's another problem. We lack the ability to truly and honestly determine who is really at fault in a situation. Often times when we feel we have been wronged, it is not unlikely that it is we ourselves that are the perpetrator and not the victim. Vengeance is mine says the Lord and failing to forgive could be a means of vengeance on our part.

 

[Who Me]

I don't know if this is what you mean but what I'm hearing in your words is that we are to refuse to forgive unless the one that offends us repents. I don't believe this is what the Bible teaches either. I believe you might be taking it to the other extreme. What I believe we are told is that if a brother or sister asks for our forgiveness we are not to withhold it. But I also believe we are to forgive because Christ forgave us for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Scripture also tells us not to hold on to hatred or anger for Ephesians 4:26 tells us not to let the sun go down on our anger. Luke 6:27-42 tells us to love our enemies, do good to them, bless them, and pray for them. It seems forgiving them would be an appropriate step.

Here's another problem. We lack the ability to truly and honestly determine who is really at fault in a situation. Often times when we feel we have been wronged, it is not unlikely that it is we ourselves that are the perpetrator and not the victim. Vengeance is mine says the Lord and failing to forgive could be a means of vengeance on our part.

No where have I said if someone says sorry we should refuse to forgive.

What I am trying to show is that when Christians teach that we MUST forgive no matter what.
This is unbiblical and is a hateful and very harmfull teaching.

May I suggest that you study how sacrifical offerings were treated in the OT, which is what Jesus and the disciples would have done when worshipping at the temple.

Then mary what ever you believe about forgiveingothers with Luke 17.

 

[Who Me]

No, it does not as we do not put demands on others to make them repent as we are only to forgive, love and pray for those who oppress us. God puts demands of obedience on us to come to Him with a humbled heart of repentance so He can forgive us our trespasses. We are not God, but need to be obedient to forgive others, to love others and pray for them.

Actualy that is not what we teacj our children.
They break a rule and are told apologise, if they don't they loose priviledges or are punished.

Look at how the Jews approached God, and this would include Jesus and the disciples when offering sacrifices,
They had to identify with the sacrifice, laying a hand on its head. They had to be repentant of their sins and as Jesus taught if at the point of sacrificing they realised they weren't in a right relationship with someone. They were to leave that sacrifice by the alter in Jerxulsalem and travel home to where ever in Israel to put there relationship right.

As Luke 17 teaches us if a relationship can be put right by talking and by aplogies we have no option but to forgive.
It also teaches no putting right, no apolgy no forgiveness.

 

[Who Me]

im not so sure those we forgive must repent in order to obtain forgiveness from us. The Lord has provided me with what I need, in Him, to forgive a lot of people who are probably either a) completely unconverted or b) hypocritical to the max, modern day Pharisees to the core....

as far as I--the creature--know, the people I've been graced with power in Him to forgive may remain in categories a and/or b till the day they die, despite my prayers for them and Christ's work in their hearts, lives, etc. it is what it is. and yet...

I've been forgiven a -massive debt- . How can I not forgive their small(er) debts, or even put conditions on releasing them?

Matthew 18:21-35

What you decide to do about those who have offender/hurt you is between you and God.

It is the teaching that Christiand MUST forgive no matter what that I am against.

Everyone quote Matt, try Luke 17.

 

[WIP]

No where have I said if someone says sorry we should refuse to forgive.

You're not paying attention to what I wrote. What I disagree with is where you teach that it is wrong to forgive unless the offender repents. I do not agree with this position and do not believe it is Biblical. What if the offender doesn't even realize the offense?

There is nothing unBiblical about forgiving others even when they do not repent. Our role is to let the offender know when they have offended us and in so doing, give them opportunity to repent. Whether they choose to repent or not is not our concern but God's and God will deal with them.....or us, if we do not repent.

What I do agree with is that when someone offends us and then repents, we are not to withhold our forgiveness. For if we do, God will not forgive us.

 

[Who Me]

You're not paying attention to what I wrote. What I disagree with is where you teach that it is wrong to forgive unless the offender repents. I do not agree with this position and do not believe it is Biblical. What if the offender doesn't even realize the offense?


What I do agree with is that when someone offends us and then repents, we are not to withhold our forgiveness. For if we do, God will not forgive us.

You have not read Luke 17, have not looked at how the jews even in Jesus day had to behave when worshipping God and do not full understand how God deals with those who have not repented.

All of the above stress the importance of repentance.

What is of equal importance is how did Jesus respond to those who crucified him.
He did not say 'I forgive you.'
but
'Father forgive them.'
He did what we need to do when we are hurt and the offender will not or cannot repent. Hand the situation and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.

What I am against is the false teaching that Christians MUST forgive in every situation.
They may if they so choose but why MUSTa grieving parent forgive their childs murder?
Why MUST a girl forgive an unrepentant and that is one who has handed himself in to the police, pleading guilty etc rapist.

In the context of the need for repentance we MUST forgive. Just as God will alwaysforgive the repentant sinner, but judges and condemns the unrepentent sinner.

 

[Randy]

You're not paying attention to what I wrote. What I disagree with is where you teach that it is wrong to forgive unless the offender repents. I do not agree with this position and do not believe it is Biblical. What if the offender doesn't even realize the offense?

There is nothing unBiblical about forgiving others even when they do not repent. Our role is to let the offender know when they have offended us and in so doing, give them opportunity to repent. Whether they choose to repent or not is not our concern but God's and God will deal with them.....or us, if we do not repent.

What I do agree with is that when someone offends us and then repents, we are not to withhold our forgiveness. For if we do, God will not forgive us.

Likewise there is nothing biblical to state those that refuse to repent and keep sinning will inherit eternal life.
As a people who believe in a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous its wise to keep a clear conscience before God.
Not to want to repent is stating "I want to do evil or I desire to keep sinning".
The children of God will be those that keep God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus as is stated in the book of Rev.
If someone is directly sinning against you and you can't work it out with them after several attempts wouldn't one then take it to the judge?

For those that continue to sin and love to do evil I only find judgment in my bible.

 

[WIP]

If someone is directly sinning against you and you can't work it out with them after several attempts wouldn't one then take it to the judge?

Agreed! And this is what I have been saying. It is not our place to judge but God's. Give it to God and let Him handle it but for us, we need to forgive and not continue to harbor disdain toward said someone otherwise we are guilty of judging.

 

[WIP]

You have not read Luke 17, have not looked at how the jews even in Jesus day had to behave when worshipping God and do not full understand how God deals with those who have not repented.

All of the above stress the importance of repentance.

What is of equal importance is how did Jesus respond to those who crucified him.
He did not say 'I forgive you.'
but
'Father forgive them.'
He did what we need to do when we are hurt and the offender will not or cannot repent. Hand the situation and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.

What I am against is the false teaching that Christians MUST forgive in every situation.
They may if they so choose but why MUSTa grieving parent forgive their childs murder?
Why MUST a girl forgive an unrepentant and that is one who has handed himself in to the police, pleading guilty etc rapist.

In the context of the need for repentance we MUST forgive. Just as God will alwaysforgive the repentant sinner, but judges and condemns the unrepentent sinner.

We cannot force others into repentance. It is a personal thing that we must do ourselves.

Remember, we must take the whole of Scripture into consideration. Our emotional state does not play a role in this. God is the final judge, not us. Nobody says it is easy and quite often we feel it is impossible. I get that and that's why we need to turn to God but our emotions are not the judge. If we harbor hatred, ill-will, disdain, animosity, or other negatives toward an offender, are we not also guilty of murder in our heart? (see Matthew 5:21-26)

 

[WIP]

I believe Matthew 18:23-35 speaks to this topic too. Has Jesus not forgiven us who claim the title Christian? Therefore, since He has forgiven us, are we too not required to forgive?

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[Who Me]

We cannot force others into repentance. It is a personal thing that we must do ourselves.

Remember, we must take the whole of Scripture into consideration. Our emotional state does not play a role in this. God is the final judge, not us. Nobody says it is easy and quite often we feel it is impossible. I get that and that's why we need to turn to God but our emotions are not the judge. If we harbor hatred, ill-will, disdain, animosity, or other negatives toward an offender, are we not also guilty of murder in our heart? (see Matthew 5:21-26)

Where have I said that we must force people to repent and conversely where does it say that Christians must be forced to forgive?

Where have I said that a Christian suffering injuries must harbour hatred, ill-will etc.

I have repeatedly put the example of Jesus on the cross as what a Christian should do when an offender cannot or will not repent.
That we should hand the situation and our feelings over to God for him to deal with.

 

[Who Me]

I believe Matthew 18:23-35 speaks to this topic too. Has Jesus not forgiven us who claim the title Christian? Therefore, since He has forgiven us, are we too not required to forgive?

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Interesing that you should totally miss the point.

Both servants pleaded for mercy, both servants were sorry.
In using this parable you make the point very clearly that there must be repentance.