Father Forgive Them....They Do Not Know What They Are Doing

[GodsGrace]

amen!
I struggled with it for many years, but it's nice when God finally opens your heart to forgive another. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer for it to get from your head to your heart.

This is an important point.
Many think that to forgive a person they have to have some kind of "nice" feeling toward them.

Actually, this is not true. Most of the time forgiveness is a matter of the will; we WILL to forgive a person. This is a head decision. Before long, it goes to the heart, as you've stated, and it becomes a heart condition. .. a work of the Holy Spirit.

Just because it does not happen right away, is no reason for anyone to become discouraged. God sees what our intent is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some things are hard to let go of. And so it's hard to forgive as well. On at least one of those occasions I've had to ask God to help me forgive.

For me it's inspiring to see a person who forgives right away. It's what we should all be able to do. Have a thick enough skin to not be bothered by any small or big thing against us. And to be able to forgive when people try to make it right.

As for why it's important. Because Jesus said so. There are more reasons then this, but I feel like a lot of following Jesus should have at the heart of the issues that Jesus told us. Trust that, regardless if we understand it fully, partially, or if we understand it at all.

Something that might help us to forgive is understanding what Jesus meant when He said to turn the other cheeck.
Mathew 5:39

Slapping a person in Jesus' time was an insult to that person, not an act of violence. To turn the other cheeck means not to pay attention to that slap. Jesus meant that if anyone were witnessing this scene, they would understand that by not becoming upset, or mad, and turning the other cheek meant that the person slapped believes it's more important to honor God than man...that he believes God is more important than what the
one who slapped.

By forgiving someone, we can know in our heart (even if the other person doesn't know) that we consider God's good pleasure with us is more important than keeping any hurt in our heart..and that hurt will last less if we love God more than we hate the hurt.

 

[GodsGrace]

Two asked something of Jesus while He was on the cross. Only one received a reply. The one who believed in Him.

Jesus was asked why did He dwell among tax collectors and sinners. He stated He came to call the unrighteous to repentance. Figuratively it is the sick who needs a doctor. Likewise we are also to forgive others as God showed us mercy.

If you went to a prison to preach Christ would you not first ask them, "do you want to do evil?" If they answer yes move on. If they answer no you have a beginning.

I do believe that some persons are so against God that if we try to speak to them we can actually do more harm than good (if we say too much). In this case I make one statement and then let it go.

IOW, you would ask them if they want to change?
If they say no, then they won't change.
A person can only change himself. We can't do that for him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lets put the quote in english:-25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Note it says, 'If you hold anything against anyone.'

Also Jesus introduced the sacrifical system and was talking to Jews brought up under that system where to make a sacrifice/offering to God one had to have repented.
It is explained more clearly in Luke 17:3+4
3 So watch yourselves.
‘If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying “I repent,” you must forgive them.’

See how we are to copy God/Jesus, we sin and come to God saying 'sorry' for forgiveness so in the same way we are to be willin g to forgive others, like God if they repent.

Thos who don't, won't or can't we, like Jesus, hand over to God. That is the offence, our feelings and any guilt or suffering for God to deal with them and us.

Was Jesus murdered? Murder is unlawfull killing and his trial was illegal and the con demnation unlawfull, the confirmation of the sentance was equally unlawfull. Pilate repeatedly found no grounds for a death sentance and only agreed to avoid a riot.

Yes Jesus went voluntarily but that does not hide the facts that he was not executed but murdered.

Do you believe that we should forgive someone even if they don't ask to be forgiven?

 

[WIP]

Was Jesus murdered? Murder is unlawfull killing and his trial was illegal and the con demnation unlawfull, the confirmation of the sentance was equally unlawfull. Pilate repeatedly found no grounds for a death sentance and only agreed to avoid a riot.

Yes Jesus went voluntarily but that does not hide the facts that he was not executed but murdered.

Doesn't murder require that it be against one's will? Jesus evaded multiple attempts on His life prior to His crucifixion. This time, however, He went to Jerusalem specifically to do what He did as it was His fate and He knew it.

 

[Randy]

I do believe that some persons are so against God that if we try to speak to them we can actually do more harm than good (if we say too much). In this case I make one statement and then let it go.

IOW, you would ask them if they want to change?
If they say no, then they won't change.
A person can only change himself. We can't do that for him.

I agree. Repentance is a good start.
Randy

 

[Who Me]

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour (around 12 PM) there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour (around 3PM) Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice (at the ninth hour), yielded up the ghost.

Jesus was crucified being bound to the cross, which means criticized severely and unrelentingly as the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the crowd of Jews who once followed after Him now condemned Him and cried out "Release Barabbas". Look what Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", Luke 23:34. Even His own disciples deserted Him as He hung on the cross.

So, three hours Jesus hung on the cross then gave up the ghost and died. Jesus was not murdered, but condemned to die on the cross. It was Jesus who laid His life down. Know one understood who Jesus was until God raised Him to life again and He showed Himself to over 500 people that day, including His disciples, 1 Corinthians 15:6.

We too need to say Father forgive them for they do not know what they do as we forgive those who trespass against us as we have also died (to self) and now live by faith in Christ as we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

Murder s unlawful killing. There was nothing legal about Jesus's death.

As for forgiveness. Rooted into the Jewish mind was the need to repent, to say sorry. Read the OT sacrificial laws, no one sacrificed to God without repentance.

Yes those cases were there s no repentance w have to hand the situation, our feelings etc over to God for him to deal with.

Just as God does not automatically forgive an unrepentant dinner, so we don't hav to forgive an unrepentant offender, but hand them over to God.

 

[Who Me]

Do you believe that we should forgive someone even if they don't ask to be forgiven?

Does God forgive the unrepentant sinner?

It is up to you, if you chose Todo what the bible Does Not require you to do that is your choice.

But think of weaker Christians then you.
You have the maturity to forgive the person who broke your car wing mirror, how does that weaker Christian cope with loosing a loved one in a hit and run incident.
Must they forgive? In this moment of stress, isn't it better that they had the situation over to God, for him to judge the other driver, provide peace etc to the grieving Christian.

It is the damaging umbilical, unloving insistence that we MUST forgive I am against.

 

[Who Me]

Doesn't murder require that it be against one's will? Jesus evaded multiple attempts on His life prior to His crucifixion. This time, however, He went to Jerusalem specifically to do what He did as it was His fate and He knew it.

Murder is unlawful killing, what was legal about his trial and conviction?

 

[stovebolts]

Does God forgive the unrepentant sinner?

It is up to you, if you chose Todo what the bible Does Not require you to do that is your choice.

But think of weaker Christians then you.
You have the maturity to forgive the person who broke your car wing mirror, how does that weaker Christian cope with loosing a loved one in a hit and run incident.
Must they forgive? In this moment of stress, isn't it better that they had the situation over to God, for him to judge the other driver, provide peace etc to the grieving Christian.

It is the damaging umbilical, unloving insistence that we MUST forgive I am against.

Help me understand what damaging, unbiblical, unloving instances your talking about.

Can you give me an example?


Thanks.

 

[WIP]

Does God forgive the unrepentant sinner?

It is up to you, if you chose Todo what the bible Does Not require you to do that is your choice.

But think of weaker Christians then you.
You have the maturity to forgive the person who broke your car wing mirror, how does that weaker Christian cope with loosing a loved one in a hit and run incident.
Must they forgive? In this moment of stress, isn't it better that they had the situation over to God, for him to judge the other driver, provide peace etc to the grieving Christian.

It is the damaging umbilical, unloving insistence that we MUST forgive I am against.

Reading your post quoted above, it sounds to me like you're conflating forgiveness with judgment and perhaps even hatred.

We don't have to forgive but one thing that God has told us is if we refuse to forgive, then He will not forgive us.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14-15 NKJV

 

[for_his_glory]

so we don't hav to forgive an unrepentant offender, but hand them over to God.

We are to love and pray for our enemies and also forgive them who trespass against us whether they are a Christian or not. They do not have to accept our forgiveness, but at least we have a clean heart in forgiving them.

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I believe when we walk alone it is not easy ( if not impossible) to love and forgive. But the scene reverses dramatically when we consciously walk with the Lord... and in His spirit. A spirit of love and forgiveness overtakes our ( my) egoistic spirit and it not only becomes possible to forgive and love but also rather easy. Again it's imperative to walk with the Lord . Everything He taught becomes easier to do then. Just my two cents and based on my own observations as a follower of Christ. Even to walk with Him requires conscious effort and practice. I find it difficult to love and forgive but when I walk with the Lord it becomes easy and possible. So I concluded it's Him who is forgiving and loving through me. Grace really. But the effort to walk with him is all mine. that's my part of the deal. Trying to practice keeping Him with me everyday --- morning to evening

 

[Who Me]

Murder is unlawful killing, what was legal about his trial and conviction?

think of weaker Christians then you.
You have the maturity to forgive the person who broke your car wing mirror, how does that weaker Christian cope with loosing a loved one in a hit and run incident.
Must they forgive? In this moment of stress, isn't it better that they had the situation over to God, for him to judge the other driver, provide peace etc to the grieving Christian.

 

[Who Me]

Reading your post quoted above, it sounds to me like you're conflating forgiveness with judgment and perhaps even hatred.

We don't have to forgive but one thing that God has told us is if we refuse to forgive, then He will not forgive us.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14-15 NKJV

A society in which repentancy was a key element in the sacrifical system of worship teaches everyone in that society that repentance is a big important thing.
So big, so much a part of life that it does not need to be mentioned.
Luke also talked in ch 17 about forgiveness, how we should talk to them and if they repented forgive them, no matter how often they offend us.

The bible does not contradict its self, we have to apply the principals it teaches.

The passage you quote assumes that there is repentace, and in that case we MUST forgive.

 

[Who Me]

We are to love and pray for our enemies and also forgive them who trespass against us whether they are a Christian or not. They do not have to accept our forgiveness, but at least we have a clean heart in forgiving them.

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Yes we are to always pray for the people around us.
Mark is about our offence against someone and even if its about someone offending us, note we are to go and resolve that issue. as Matt 5:23-25 tells us.

Then Luke17 also expands on the need for repentace as part of the fprgiveness process.

Finaly does God forgive without repentance, are you being like the pharasises and requiring more than God requires?

 

[for_his_glory]

think of weaker Christians then you.
You have the maturity to forgive the person who broke your car wing mirror, how does that weaker Christian cope with loosing a loved one in a hit and run incident.
Must they forgive? In this moment of stress, isn't it better that they had the situation over to God, for him to judge the other driver, provide peace etc to the grieving Christian.

There is no judgement in forgiving others, but only pardoning one of their sin against us. We have forgiven, but it's up to the one who sinned against us to have God forgive them. Did God judge your sin when you repented of it, or did He pardon your sin by His grace?

 

[stovebolts]

think of weaker Christians then you.
You have the maturity to forgive the person who broke your car wing mirror, how does that weaker Christian cope with loosing a loved one in a hit and run incident.
Must they forgive? In this moment of stress, isn't it better that they had the situation over to God, for him to judge the other driver, provide peace etc to the grieving Christian.

I'll do you one better.
When I was 22 and trying to kindle my relationship back with God after the birth of my first child, my then wife ( now ex) realized she was pregnant with my step brothers child (which was unknown to me at the time) and wanted an abortion. We fought about it but she was determined to have the abortion the morning she was scheduled, I left the house and made her take care of our child. I was making it difficult for her.

Two hours later my 3 month old child was dead. There is ample reason to believe my ex suffocated her. Her death was declared as SIDS.

I hated God more than I hated my ex. Ironically, I was able to forgive her before I could forgive God, which really is to say I didn't really know God to begin with.

Perhaps God just put it in my nature to forgive those who I love. But it's forgiving those I don't love, much like the case you describe with a hit and run that I really struggled with for some time.

Forgiveness doesn't release the offender from their trespasses simply because they own the repentance part. They have to repent. Our job in forgiving them means their trespass doesn't live rent free in our head tormenting us. For me, I've still got work to do, but I know its Jesus who gives me the strength because I trust that he is doing a work in me that brings a peace beyond understanding.

 

[Who Me]

There is no judgement in forgiving others, but only pardoning one of their sin against us. We have forgiven, but it's up to the one who sinned against us to have God forgive them. Did God judge your sin when you repented of it, or did He pardon your sin by His grace?

Sorry I cannot follow your reasoning.

We don't judge, in the sense that we give reward or punishment, and when someone has said sorry for offending us we have no need for judgement.

All sin is already condemned. see John 3:18
Just as all sin is already forgiven through Jesus's atoning death and resurrection. It is waiting for repentance to be applied to the sinner.

Why do you expect Christians to do what God does not do?
That is forgive those who have not repented.
Let's be real how many posting here actually have any serious offence done against them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Finaly does God forgive without repentance, are you being like the pharasises and requiring more than God requires?

Where did you get that from by what I said? Of course we have to repent in order for God to forgive our trespasses, Mark 11:25, 26.