Yeah, well, God must have known Santa needed snow to sleigh in and made a mild winter that year in Bethlehem. But really, I see all kinds of barn animals around NC grazing in the fields and it gets cold here this time of year too. Though, I have never studied or contemplated the exact birthdate of JC, I do see sheep out in the fields grazing everyday on Jennings Rd at the sheep farm right beside North Iredell Middle School. So...just because it's cold probably isn't enough to say JC wasn't born in Dec, seeing sheep graze in winter also.
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Few Questions - Re:70AD
- Thread starter Lloyd
- Start date
Yeah, well, God must have known Santa needed snow to sleigh in and made a mild winter that year in Bethlehem. But really, I see all kinds of barn animals around NC grazing in the fields and it gets cold here this time of year too. Though, I have never studied or contemplated the exact birthdate of JC, I do see sheep out in the fields grazing everyday on Jennings Rd at the sheep farm right beside North Iredell Middle School. So...just because it's cold probably isn't enough to say JC wasn't born in Dec, seeing sheep graze in winter also.
Just checked, NC is much cooler than Bethlehem, and again, sheep graze here in Dec. and it is not growing season. As far as fertilizer, there has always been sheep and cow poo.
Not sure about the other thread you mentioned, but hope winter wasn't one of the reasons listed on that thread too as that seems to be debunked right here a couple of miles from me.
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Hitch
Guest
Jason THE AntiTopic
jasoncran
Member
- May 17, 2009
- 38,271
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:toofunny the ac more like it
but here for tjg
http://www.christianforums.net/f15/lukes-birth-christ-39757/
luke has made some historical statments and also other things that point away from decemember.
- Thread starter
- #28
I figured its was just a knee jerk reaction. The word for 'near' used in v3 is often translated 'nigh', I suggest a look into NT uses of the term. The Reformation springs to mind, lots of folks didnt agree with that In case you really want to know; Its based in the natural human fear of death. Once a way around death ( through rapture ?) can be integrated into a religious system the defenses come down and the blinders go up, and the error gets further off the mark while becoming ever more entrenched. The only block to clarity wrt R1;1-3 is preconceived notions. Take two minutes, pretend that you have never heard any pre-millennial eschatology, I know its like un-ringing a bell but give it a try, now take two translations and read R1;1-3. While that holds for the stranger areas of the Apocalypse it is not true of the opening three verses, and no amount of wishful thinking can make it so If you could have honestly ,with confidence and certainty placed this in the future I reckon you would have, without a hedge or a guess so . Thats fine with me, rest assured the onus to overcome a first century time frame will be applied to you.
Ok, so I'm just going to throw out some verses, and if you have time, it would be good to hear your view on them.
" Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
I've read in another thread that this only meant Israel. Not too sure about that, unless of course other translations verify Jesus was only referring to Israel. If he actually meant the whole world, then in 70AD, it wasn't preached to the whole world.
"Matthew 24 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again"
So, was 70AD the greatest distress of all time? I don't think it was, but interested to hear what you say.
"Matthew 24 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."
So, Jesus says no-one will know the day or the hour, not even him, yet every preterist does? Ok, let's assume Jesus was saying that to only those at the time, then it would make sense to them. But if he wasn't, then it negates anyones view of when it will happen/or has happened.
In the days of Noah, the flood was unexepected, so was 70AD unexepected? I don't know too much of it if I'm honest, however I will look into it.
That's just a couple of passages from Matthew - I will go through each Gospel and certainly Revelation at a later time.
Also, I am not leaving out the passages prior to 24:14 whereby Jesus is talking about the temple being destroyed and is then prompted "when will these things take place?" for the sake of it - I agree that 70AD is certainly covered there, in Matthew 1, however I believe the 'end of the world' is too in the latter passages.
Cheers....
- Thread starter
- #29
H
Hitch
Guest
You're sure?
Romans 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Still sure?
You're half right . This had to happen before the end. It did.
Jesus is quoting ;
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Nation is not used generically here, the nation in reference is Israel and the destruction was the worst of her history, but Jesus likely had the covenantal aspects of Israel's trouble in mind ,specifically the removal of the kingdom and the granting of it to a nation that would bear the fruit of it. What could justify returning the kingdom to Israel since the new nation that has it is bearing the fruit of it? ( Ezekiel's nation of royal priests BTW ) Remember, those whose names were written in the book,,, listened to Jesus and headed the warning, escaping to the hills of Judah.
Lost me
Well Noah wasnt surprised. Neither were the churches. The jews on the other hand were expecting divine intervention , when all the while the marvel of the destruction was the fulfillment of the prophets warnings and our Lord's own judgment against her,recorded in Mat 21-23.
In the mean I'd like your take on just what world ended in the first century (H 9;26 )
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- Thread starter
- #31
Ok, Romans 10:18 is a reference to Pslam 19 and I think you're taking what Jesus said out of context. Jesus specifically said "preached" to the whole world - the Romans and Pslam references are questioning the faith of the Israelites and the works of God which are evident throughout creation.
Pslam 19:
" For the director of music. A psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth. "
I think this is a stretch to tie this in with what Jesus said. There would be no point in Jesus saying "preached to the whole world" as the above passage talks of the heavens and works of God, not specifically the gospel . Jesus is making a clear reference to the gospel being heard, not the glory of the invisible God evident since creation.
I'll take your point on the worst suffering in Israels history was 70AD. Did some reading and I didn't realise just how horrific it was, so yes, I agree with that.
In regards to the ''Lost me'' bit - apologies, I didnt state my point correctly. What I was trying to allude to was, Jesus said no-one would know the time of the end, not even him. But, you and every preterist is saying 70AD, which makes the words of Jesus false, unless of course, Jesus only meant the people he was talking to.
Not sure what you mean about my take on what world ended. Can you clarify? Thanks.
jasoncran
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- May 17, 2009
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i will i get a chance look into the words for the word world.
ie kosmos and ge.
and also comparing the gentile judgment to the judgment of jerusalem isnt good exegesis as noah and the cities of sodoma and gommorah werent jews or nor hebrews or isrealites.
i would like to see the idea of what is meant by the ends of the earth to the preterist as if that is the only world or land judged then care to explain that idea of near kinsmens and what adam lost to me again?
ie kosmos and ge.
and also comparing the gentile judgment to the judgment of jerusalem isnt good exegesis as noah and the cities of sodoma and gommorah werent jews or nor hebrews or isrealites.
i would like to see the idea of what is meant by the ends of the earth to the preterist as if that is the only world or land judged then care to explain that idea of near kinsmens and what adam lost to me again?
Sinthesis
Member
- Feb 23, 2009
- 5,188
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Jesus was referencing a Jewish wedding custom whereby it is the father of the groom alone who decides when the groom should go claim his bride and the wedding commence. It is only the fact that this happened in the past which allows us to now know the time of the end.
- Thread starter
- #35
Can I ask how you know that? Sounds like a good answer, but how you've come to that conclusion I'm interested in.
- Thread starter
- #36
Well, yes, it's a historical fact if Jesus was applying it to those he was speaking with. But that's the point I'm making, its whether you tie that comment to 70AD or a future event.
jasoncran
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- May 17, 2009
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i wonder if the roman born gentiles that heard that feel that they got their redemption when jerusalem fell.
it went from jerusalem to rome as far as tortuting saints and if i wanted to die i think let it be quick and not for a sport. the jews did that death swiftly and nothing the like the romans. who had men burned, and eaten and slaughters all for sport.
hmm.. just thought i would mention that. the bible wasnt even put together till after the 4 century ad so when that which is perfect has come cant be this end of the mini world that isreal was and is.
it went from jerusalem to rome as far as tortuting saints and if i wanted to die i think let it be quick and not for a sport. the jews did that death swiftly and nothing the like the romans. who had men burned, and eaten and slaughters all for sport.
hmm.. just thought i would mention that. the bible wasnt even put together till after the 4 century ad so when that which is perfect has come cant be this end of the mini world that isreal was and is.
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Hitch
Guest
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
LOL Paul is clear
And it is his job as an Apostle to interpret the Scriptures. Isaiah doesnt use the words preaching or gospel, neither does Dan, so what? If v16 isnt a 'clear reference to the gospel' what is?
And of course , as though it were necessary , the confirming passage;
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Truth of what? Where?
You need to explain why Paul uses 'gospel' here knowing that Christ himself used the term, and yet according to you, Paul means something else. What 'gospel' is Paul speaking of and how does it differ from the 'gospel' Christ spoke of?
See above
If aunt Bessie calls Lloyd and says, 'we're coming to town ,lets have dinner, right now I dont know if we'll be there Thursday or Friday',,,, by Sunday everybody knows, as it is after the fact. Your objection here makes no sense.
Sure;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The now obviously refers to the time of writing, what 'world' ended? Or will you claim this is future?
- Thread starter
- #39
Nice points Hitch...
**Goes off to do more reading**
And for what its worth, I'm not just going to keep coming back for questions sake or to just counter your points, I'm here for the truth brother...
Have a good day - grace and peace in Christ Jesus.
Lloyd
**Goes off to do more reading**
And for what its worth, I'm not just going to keep coming back for questions sake or to just counter your points, I'm here for the truth brother...
Have a good day - grace and peace in Christ Jesus.
Lloyd
H